DC's Fear of Change!

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
From a business point of view, DC must always publish a book titled Batman. The name of Batman is more important to their bottom line than the identity of the person behind the mask. I've got no problem with Dick filling the "Batman" role while maintaining his Nightwing identity but it isn't feasible.

From a story point of view, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. These are symbols and ideas in addition to being characters. The line in RIP where Bruce says "Batman and Robin will never die" reinforces that. Personally, I wouldn't look as Dick as Batman 2.0 anymore than I look at Kyle as Green Lantern 2.0 (or rather 5.0). It's just the logical progression of the universe they've given us. The keyword there is progression. There must be progression in these books or else, why even bother reading?

I talk about Wally in this topic because he's the one big success story of superhero sidekicks but even he's about to be pushed aside so Barry can return. At this point, we've gone beyond the basic archetypes. This in addition to Hal being back, Oliver Queen being back, and even Supergirl kicking Superboy to the wayside. I know about the legal issues there but they could have just changed his name.

As far as Nightwing is concerned, he's probably in the worst situation possible for a superhero. Not the main guy but also not the sidekick. He literally serves no purpose which is why Didio thought it was ok to kill him during the last Crisis if not for Geoff Johns intervention. You gotta wonder how long Wally and Kyle are going to stick around as Flash and Green Lantern B.

Maybe I only speak for myself, but I'd view Nightwing becoming Batman almost as badly as I'd view anybody becoming Captain America. He was an ideal too, and yet everything's comfortable with him being dead. "Batman and Robin will never die"... meh. Again, perhaps it's just me, but I view Bruce Wayne and Batman as one, inseperable entity. If one dies, so does the other. Nightwing taking over would not be Batman living on, it would be Gotham's new caped crusader, which would be fine, and I'd be happy with it, but I wouldn't think of it as Batman. "Batman and Robin will never die" sounds nice in writing, but I'd hate to see a vs. forum thread where people have to specify which Batman they mean.

As for archetypes, I view Superman and Batman as far more archetypal than Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and so on. Perhaps that's why I don't care about GL 5.0... or I just don't care about GL's period. srug

Lulz... at least Wally got 20 years. Quasar's already back. Wendell, that is.

Meh. Again, if Batman needs to be killed off for Nightwing to be important, ok, but keep him as Nightwing, not the character that will fill Batman's shoes. Toss the Bat-shoes out, insert Dick's shoes.

I agree with both Scoobless and Cavalier and OMD was mostly all Quesada's bs. He's the one that had to live in nostalgia and I think we can agree the vast majority hate it. But, before that Spidey was actually one of the better ones about change for many years. I mean his girlfriend died in his arms in part because of his very trying to save her, he got married, his friends around him died, he went through college and jobs. Even joined the Avengers, told the world who he was and evolved his powerset and origins almost completely in a sense. It was all well done and daring IMO. Until Quesada came along and bitchslaped him back to the late 70's.

As for Batman, I couldn't agree more that no one wants to see another person as the Bat. At least not for some time after Bruce has passed but the idea of Dick taking his place and still staying his own man as Nightwing could really work. IMO

I mean yea its true that all comic companies use to be just as bad about it but most have changed and started pushing the bar farther and farther in the right direction with it. IMO And Marvel is definitely one of them with all the things they've been doing lately. The death of Capt and replacement of Bucky as the new Capt is excellent to me. Then you also have SW going insane and killing Avengers and changing the whole world with real implications to the universe depowering all the mutants. And now Daredevil's in Jail with his identity known and all heroes forced to register or be outlaws. Just lots of other things that might not really be considered huge prove of big change but still much better steps in that direction than DC's been show willing to take over the years and at least for longer periods of time than DC.

I mean I also like Bart continuing the Flash legacy but in itself was also just a continued pattern with DC as Flashes go. And even then they just couldn't stick with Bart long enough to give him a real chance as Flash. They just had to rush back to Wally and now possibly back to Barry even. 😬

I also really always wanted to see Connor eventually take on the mantle and become Superman. Not the same Superman by far but that's a huge part of the appeal to me. Seeing what its like for this different person with a different personality and perspective take on a well known place in an old style world and see how it changes things. It's like when Supes when Blue and because pure energy. I loved it, hell I even started to drool when he even split into 2 beings that neither were a copy but rather literally both the same person. Of course I always knew that despite my best hope they would go right back to the way things were just like DC always does.

I guess the Freddy thing really gets to me because it always goes on with DC and just for a while there after the death of Shazam and Billy becoming Marvel and Trials being so very well done that maybe things had finally changed and DC had actually done something new and it worked. I mean I really really think Trials worked incredibly well for Freddy taking over for Billy. But when I saw that blue on the cover of Wizard and read inside that the artist actually planned on going with the Red from Trials until DC specifically requested it I just knew its only the first step to nothing changing again like always. I'm sure its also in part because it'd be so scary to actually have a different Superman in the Justice League. 😬

With DC its just very true, The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Mark my words. In 5 years, Final Crisis and Infinite Crisis won't even matter. All will be as it was.

See, I honestly think if Dick were given a 20 year run as Batman, he'd be viewed extremely favorably. I think it would work as well or even better than Wally as Flash.

Personally I just hate the idea that says, "Bruce and Clark should be Batman and Superman until the end of time! Case closed!" That fear of change just rubs me the wrong way.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Meh. Again, if Batman needs to be killed off for Nightwing to be important, ok, but keep him as Nightwing, not the character that will fill Batman's shoes. Toss the Bat-shoes out, insert Dick's shoes.

Dan Didio once said, and this is actually something I agree with him on, there's just not enough room for all these guys.

You've got Bruce, Dick and Jason who all essentially have the same role.

There's going to be 5 Flashes running around.

4 earth based Green Lanterns.

3 Green Arrows.

Come on. Some of these guys have got to go.

Originally posted by Entity
Mark my words. In 5 years, Final Crisis and Infinite Crisis won't even matter. All will be as it was.

I hope Prime takes the Superman mantle. biscuits

the way i see it is this.

i'm 25 now, and i'm at the stage where i'm old enough to be able to have access to and read whatever comics i like. comics are as good as they've ever been, its becoming one of the better times to be a reader of alot of characters since they've started.

we had (up until recently) whedon on x-men. we have johns on action and GL. we have morrison on batman. leaders in their field are finally coming around to writing about the characters i want to read about.

if johns turned around tomorrow and said he was doing away with clark and bringing back kon-el, i'd think it was an awful waste that we weren't going to get to see just how far johns could go writing kal-el.

now, i do like kon-el. i loved him in teen titans, and i loved most of that series. but kon-el as superman written by johns? sorry, but no, not interested. i read comics because i want to read about the characters I like. I like kon-el as superboy. i like kal-el as superman.

superman is as much kal-el as he is superman, imo. i don't read the comics for the S shield, i read the comics to see how how kal-el sees the world around him. i read them to see the dynamic between him and bruce. i read them (or did up until recently) for the pa kent scenes. the ups and downs of marriage to lois. the rarely explored tension between him and diana. the rivalry with darkseid and brainiac and the terror of doomsday. the big suporting cast (kon-el won't get an issue narrated almost entirely by perry white, will he?) when i have the money, i buy my superman comics for those reasons. not because of the S shield. if kon-el becomes superman, i'm not going to get those things from my superman comics.

could kon-el do superman's job? sure, i'd never deny that. but would him being superman attract me to the comic as much as it being clark? not for me...

the same goes for batman. dick will never have that rivalry with the joker. he'll never have that up and down thing with selina (hopefully they've resolved it for the thousandth time), and the many other things that are exclusive to bruce. would dick be a good batman? or tim? sure, but would the comics have the same feel? not for me...

and hal? johns did a very good job, imo, of showing that it didn't have to be just hal or kyle, that both men could exist and bring their own qualities to the stories.

the same goes for wally (the will they wont they with linda and the zoom arc were gold, imo), cyclops, silver surfer, thor, hank pym, red tornado, wonder woman, psylocke, captain america (as good as bucky has been) etc...

can the new versions have good, worthwhile arcs? sure. would i have the same feeling watching kon-el battle brainiac as i do when clark does it? no. but that leads to something else. do these young replacements go up against the same rogues, or do they get a whole new catalogue? with dick as batman, do we lose joker and harley? clayface? riddler? with kon as superman do we lose darkseid? brainiac? LUTHOR? even with kon's history, it just wouldn't be the same, imo...

i know people don't agree, and that's fine, tis just how i feel...

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
See, I honestly think if Dick were given a 20 year run as Batman, he'd be viewed extremely favorably. I think it would work as well or even better than Wally as Flash.

Personally I just hate the idea that says, "Bruce and Clark should be Batman and Superman until the end of time! Case closed!" That fear of change just rubs me the wrong way.

But we already know this is impossible. The only other choice would be to keep Bruce and Dick around in their current roles.

Dan Didio once said, and this is actually something I agree with him on, there's just not enough room for all these guys.

You've got Bruce, Dick and Jason who all essentially have the same role.

There's going to be 5 Flashes running around.

4 earth based Green Lanterns.

3 Green Arrows.

Come on. Some of these guys have got to go.

Totally agree with you, except I don't see the Arrow family as an example of this. Where we see this obvious legacy element with Bruce and Dick, the arrows are like more of a liberal family unit. There is an almost expected sense of succession with Robin becoming Batman (Dick or otherwise) and although the father and son element has been played out in the GA series with both Roy and Connor, recent years have played off the idea of them being one big happy family with Black Canary as the mother. The only notable exception being Roy becoming Red Arrow for the JLA.

Originally posted by Raoul
can the new versions have good, worthwhile arcs? sure. would i have the same feeling watching kon-el battle brainiac as i do when clark does it? no. but that leads to something else. do these young replacements go up against the same rogues, or do they get a whole new catalogue? with dick as batman, do we lose joker and harley? clayface? riddler? with kon as superman do we lose darkseid? brainiac? LUTHOR? even with kon's history, it just wouldn't be the same, imo...

Wally is basically a step by step direction on how this should be done.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
No, ideally they would refresh the rogues gallery with new villains. Wally isn't fighting Eobard Thawne, he's fighting Hunter Zolomon.

Wally is basically a step by step direction on how this should be done.

wally isn't clark, though.

as much as i love the guy, i don't think you can assume that it would work as well with kon as it did with wally...

Originally posted by Raoul
wally isn't clark, though.

as much as i love the guy, i don't think you can assume that it would work as well with kon as it did with wally...

The only reason given is that you want to keep Kal-El stories.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Why not?

The only reason given is that you want to keep Kal-El stories.

and what's wrong with that?

i want to read about kal-el. i want to see superman fight parasite, and metallo, and luthor, and darkseid.

why is that so wrong?

Originally posted by Raoul
and what's wrong with that?

i want to read about kal-el. i want to see superman fight parasite, and metallo, and luthor, and darkseid.

why is that so wrong?

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Never said it was wrong. Just said it's easy to see why people tend to get bored with this hobby.

i don't get bored... good writers tell good stories, and as long as they continue to do so, i see no reason to change anything...

Dick Grayson won't be Batman the same way Superboy won't be Superman. They would be just the guys wearing those person's suits, which is why I mostly never agree with characters being replaced. It's not the suits that define the person, it's those filling it.

Originally posted by Raoul
i don't get bored... good writers tell good stories, and as long as they continue to do so, i see no reason to change anything...

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Whatever but saying it can't work just because you don't want it to is a bit silly, yes?

i'm not saying it can't work. i'm saying that for me personally, i would be less inclined to buy/read the comics, as i wouldn't be as interested as before...

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not saying it can't work. I'm saying that for me personally, i would be less inclined to buy/read the comics, as i wouldn't be as interested as before...

I mean you've even said yourself that you like Connor and Dick and some of these other characters. So don't they at least deserve the chance to take the reigns and see how it works out with them after some time to get a fair shot?

I mean its just boring to keep reading the same story over and over and no matter how many new ways you come up with Braniac to attack Kal-El it just eventually always becomes the same story. But letting characters come and go and die with honor as they lived instead of just milking them over and over until your just getting nothing but the exact same recycled stories that have been told a hundred times already only in very slightly different ways to pass it off as new or some so lazy its not even any different at all.

The whole point of putting someone new in the roles is just that. Getting a new perspective other than the same one we've all ready 50 thousand times in various serious and arcs. And what I love about it is seeing how the new characters deal with being the new Flash or Superman or Green Lantern or avenger or Gotham and head of the Batfamily. And seeing how they get passed all the cliche of them just being a replacement and really come into their own as Wally did as Flash and as Kyle had as GL before rebirth.

Just seems wrong to me to go ahead and say you won't like it and start knocking something you've already said you wouldn't even give a chance regardless of as good as it could be.

I think that as long as the characters are replaced with someone that you actually care about, it could work. I mean, for me Bucky taking Steve's mantle is only natural because Bucky always worked as an integral part of Captain America's mythos. Conner is to me, more of a side part of Kal's history, it would never work as Superman as it has never worked as a central part of his universe.

I don't feel this is the case with Batman: Bruce has Dick around, who is a core part of his history. He is also, a regular human and is only natural that he will get old and retire eventually. Superman is a kryptonian, he doesn't need to die. If there is one hero that could live forever, its Supes.

I think essentially the problem boils down to the business nature of comic books

in general, every drama has a beginning, a middle, and an end. there is always progression. people age, people die.

In comics, there is no end. There is just a beginning and a middle. For there to be an end, a character would have to die or cease to exist...meaning the comic company would lose a title.

So what we end up with is a continuing reinvention to try to keep the middle part fresh. But that's an almost impossible task to maintain for a long period. Sooner or later, these revamps will introduce plot holes, discontinuities, and other issues. Also, sooner or later, pretty much every idea and their variation will have been exhausted.

Our heroes are in a neverending hamster wheel where they're put in the same scenarios (with minor differences) over and over...until the day the audience loses complete interest...only then will our heroes be given their rightful end...and a new hero can take their place.

Originally posted by Entity
The other day I was happy to receive my newest edition of Wizard Magazine but quickly upset to see the newest incarnation of the JLA. Actually it wasn't the newest incarnation of the JLA itself that up set me but rather the fact that Freddy's back in the Captain Marvel Jr. blue outfit. I know it probably seems like some thing very minor to complain about but it just really annoys me.

See I really loved the Trials of Shazam story and thought it was one of the best done stories with transition of power by DC in some time. To me all of it was symbolic. Freddy had finally taken the lead and claimed the red costume and full mantel as the champion of the gods and earths mightiest mortal. While he kept enough of his own look to distinguish himself form Billy's Captain Marvel. It just feels to me like in putting Freddy back in the classic blue they're just busting his balls and him back to the 2nd class hero in Billy's shadow he use to be.

I guess it wouldn't bother me so much but DC is always doing this. They have some grand story about major change in the universe and rising/falling heroes and people taking their places stepping up and claiming the mantles of their former mentors. Only to just turn right around and go right back to the former status quo. God forbid they take a chance that actually lets time progress and natural change occur.

Its just more of why, as much as I want to like DC. Every time they do something new and interesting that actually shows new interest and stimulates the stories they just hit undo after a shot time. They always go right back to the status quo again and again.

Anyway I just wanted to open a thread to discuss this and see if anyone else agreed with me or what some other opinions on things like this are.

Didio in an interview said that the Marvel family won't be getting the spotlight like Superman or Batman. So for me this is Didio's Waterloo with the CM fans.