DC's Fear of Change!

Originally posted by Entity
How do you really know thou if you are so afraid of change that your refusing to even give it a chance. I mean its been done and worked very well. It's also been done and been very bad. But to just say without even trying that your absolutely not going to like it or continue reading the series is going a little far don'tcha think.

i'm not afraid of change. i prefer wally to barry and jay. i like hal jordan, who, as we all know, was the second green lantern, not the first.

I mean you've even said yourself that you like Connor and Dick and some of these other characters. So don't they at least deserve the chance to take the reigns and see how it works out with them after some time to get a fair shot?

so what am i supposed to do, then? i want to read about kal-el. i have to go years and hope they bring him back? this isn't about Superman. this is about, as philosophia said, the character who puts on the mask. i prefer kal-el to kon-el. i, like any other comic fan, want to read about the characters i like.

kon-el could take the reigns. he could have brilliant stories. he could be a great superman. i'm not arguing any of that. what i'm saying is that i'm going to be left wondering whether they'll ever bring kal-el back, as he's the character i'm interested in.

I mean its just boring to keep reading the same story over and over and no matter how many new ways you come up with Braniac to attack Kal-El it just eventually always becomes the same story.

boring for you, maybe. not for everyone.

john's brainiac arc was widely seen as a brilliant superman story.

Just seems wrong to me to go ahead and say you won't like it and start knocking something you've already said you wouldn't even give a chance regardless of as good as it could be.

and yet you seem to have made the blanket statement that change for the sake of change is a good thing, which is not nearly true, imo. the kal-els, the bruce waynes, they havent stayed in their roles this long by pure fluke. they're there because they have staying power. because people want to read about them.

i'm not knocking anything. i'm sure kon-el could be written as a great superman. but he's not the superman i want to read about. i want to read about kal-el. i want to read about lois and darkseid and luthor and metallo and parasite. the same way when i read batman that i want to read about the joker and harley quinn and so on and so on... i want to read about kal-el more than kon-el the way i want to read about scott summers more than cable, or hank pym more than whatever new guy says he wants to be ant-man.

i like kal-el as superman. i like scott summers as cyclops. the same way val likes kyle rayner, or badabing likes bruce wayne, or darthgoober likes norrin radd, or battlehammer likes logan.

it's not the title that matters, it's the character behind it. you want kon-el to be superman? go ahead, but i still want to read a kal-el comic every month...

Originally posted by Raoul
john's brainiac arc was widely seen as a brilliant superman story.

And nobody is advocating change for the sake of change but instead simple progression.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh

hey, we can't all hate everything, you know...

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
And nobody is advocating change for the sake of change but instead simple progression.

are you sure that's all it is?

Originally posted by Raoul
hey, we can't all hate everything, you know...

*shrug* Just seemed like another Braniac story to me. Wasn't bad but nothing amazing either.

Originally posted by Raoul
are you sure that's all it is?

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not afraid of change. i prefer wally to barry and jay. i like hal jordan, who, as we all know, was the second green lantern, not the first.

But aren't those the characters you grew up reading about? Just as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, and Diana were. I believe we are the same age and I know those are all the same characters I grew up reading about. Seems like your trying to defend that your not afraid of change with events that were never really changes at all for you. It was common place by the time you came along. Still those changes worked for a reason. Just as Kyle worked before they just pushed him into the background with Guy and John and went right back to Hal.

Originally posted by Raoul
so what am i supposed to do, then? i want to read about kal-el. i have to go years and hope they bring him back? this isn't about Superman. this is about, as philosophia said, the character who puts on the mask. i prefer kal-el to kon-el. i, like any other comic fan, want to read about the characters i like.

You want to read about Kal-El and Bruce fine. You've already got 60 years worth of material to choose from as well as the new All Star series. To me That's what things like All Star and Ultimate are for, to re-imagine and relive the classic heroes all over again. Or for the first time if you weren't there before. There's no need to have that and still over kill the mainstream timeline series by refusing to let go of the past and give new characters a chance to shine.

Still if it doesn't work fine, by all means, go back to the originals but at least give the new guys their fair shot. And That's something I am just completely convinced that DC just almost never does. Hell allot of times even when they do and it does work they still refuse to let it go. Kyle worked as GL, hell he's what got me and allot of my friends into GL. Wally worded as flash, so well infact to many people he IS the Flash and the only flash. Hell Wally worked better than Barry ever did as much as I like Barry. Still they couldn't give Bart the same shot.

Originally posted by Raoul
kon-el could take the reigns. he could have brilliant stories. he could be a great superman. i'm not arguing any of that. what i'm saying is that i'm going to be left wondering whether they'll ever bring kal-el back, as he's the character i'm interested in.

Originally posted by Raoul
and yet you seem to have made the blanket statement that change for the sake of change is a good thing, which is not nearly true, imo. the kal-els, the bruce waynes, they havent stayed in their roles this long by pure fluke. they're there because they have staying power. because people want to read about them.

I feel anything but that way about change. While I do enjoy change, its because I believe the world needs it. Everything does, its part of life and evolution. If things aren't allowed to change they always eventually grow old and stale and die. That being said change for only the mere sake of change is even worse. Heroes current volume 3 "Villains" has done that all season and only changed things and had plot twist and sudden deaths for just that purpose. To do it. That's the only reason, and the whole season has more or less summed up to nothing but pure crap. The same is true when things are changed for no other reason and without consideration in comics.

So no I don't try and claim that change for mere change is good but I do believe change is good in general whenever its handled correctly. Things need to be allowed to grow or they wither and die.

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not knocking anything. i'm sure kon-el could be written as a great superman. but he's not the superman i want to read about. i want to read about kal-el. i want to read about lois and darkseid and luthor and metallo and parasite. the same way when i read batman that i want to read about the joker and harley quinn and so on and so on... i want to read about kal-el more than kon-el the way i want to read about scott summers more than cable, or hank pym more than whatever new guy says he wants to be ant-man.

i like kal-el as superman. i like scott summers as cyclops. the same way val likes kyle rayner, or badabing likes bruce wayne, or darthgoober likes norrin radd, or battlehammer likes logan.

it's not the title that matters, it's the character behind it. you want kon-el to be superman? go ahead, but i still want to read a kal-el comic every month...

But can you really be absolutely sure without even trying that no matter what you can't be just as happy or possibly even happier with the new people becoming the big shots, if it were written by someone that really new what they were doing and really willing to give them some true personal and original spotlight to see how good they could really be?

The old characters have been around for decades and guess what they're still there if it doesn't work or you just wanna go back and revisit them. So whats the real harm in just seeing how things go with some fresh new blood and with it some brand new stories and rivalries?

Like I've said if its really so unthinkable to have someone else as the head of the Batfamily or the man of steel or earth's mightiest mortal then go to All Star and see it all done with the same people as before. That's what its there for. I just don't see why time has to be forced to relay forever in a constant circle while everything becomes completely predictable and overdone when it can all become new fresh and surprising.

Originally posted by Entity
But aren't those the characters you grew up reading about? Just as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, and Diana were. I believe we are the same age and I know those area all the same characters I grew up reading about. Seems like your trying to defend that your not afraid of change with events that were never really changes at all for you. It was common place by the time you came along. Still those changes worked for a reason. Just as Kyle worked before they just pushed him into the background with Guy and John and went right back to Hal.

You want to read about Kal-El and Bruce fine. You've already got 60 years worth of material to choose from as well as the new All Star series. To me That's what things like All Star and Ultimate are for, to re-imagine and relive the classic heroes all over again. Or for the first time if you weren't there before. There's no need to have that and still over kill the mainstream timeline series by refusing to let go of the past and give new characters a change to shine.

Still if it doesn't work fine, by all means, go back to the originals but at least give the new guys their fair shot. And That's something I am just completely convinced that DC just almost never does. Hell allot of times even when they do and it does work they still refuse to let it go. Kyle worked as GL, hell he's what got me and allot of my friends into GL. Wally worded as flash, so well infact to many people he IS the Flash and the only flash. Hell Wally worked better than Barry ever did as much as I like Barry. Still they couldn't give Bart the same shot.

Then why wouldn't you be willing to at least stay on long enough to see if he surprised you. And if you really must have Clark Kent and only Clark Kent then go to any of the last thousand stories they've already told about him. Or just stick with something new like All Star while Connor just gets his fair chance to rise.

I fell anything but that way about change. While I do enjoy change, its because I believe the world needs it. Everything does, its part of life and evolution. If things aren't allowed to change they always eventually grow old and stale and die. That being said change for only the mere sake of change is even worse. Heroes current volume 3 "Villains" has done that all season and only changed things and had plot twist and sudden deaths for just that purpose. To do it. That's the only reason, and the whole season has more or less summed up to nothing but pure crap. The same is true when things are changed for no other reason and without consideration in comics.

So no I don't try and claim that change for mere change is good but I do believe change is good in general whenever its handled correctly. Things need to be allowed to grow or they wither and die.

But can you really be absolutely sure without even trying that no matter what you can't be just as happy or possibly even happier with the new people becoming the big shots, if it were written by someone that really new what they were doing and really willing to give them some true personal and original spotlight to see how good they could really be?

The old characters have been around for decades and guess what they're still there if it doesn't work or you just wanna go back and revisit them. So whats the real harm in just seeing how things go with some fresh new blood and with it some brand new stories and rivalries?

Like I've said if its really so unthinkable to have someone else as the head of the Batfamily or the man of steel or earth's mightiest mortal then go to All Star and see it all done with the same people as before. That's what its there for. I just don't see why time has to be forced to relay forever in a constant circle while everything becomes completely predictable and overdone when it can all become new fresh and surprising.

i'm sorry, but i'm going to be brief:

see, i don't find them stale. at all. even i, with my not as good as morrison or johns brain, can think of new stories for those same characters, that would develop them in new ways. and if i can, so can they.

and honestly? i guarantee that half the kon-el as superman stories will just be recycled kal-el ones, as is the nature of the business, so i really don't see how it would be such a radical shift...

no offence, but im really getting the impression that you're just saying you don't like clark, so you want him replaced by someone, who in your eyes is younger and cooler. the same with hal and kyle.

Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh

Johns' Brainiac arc is widely considered one of the best stories of the year.

Originally posted by jumpmann
Inappropriate usage of this pic.

Johns' Brainiac arc is widely considered one of the best stories of the year.

So was WWH

haw-som

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
So was WWH

haw-som

No one liked World War Hulk. Wasn't even released this year.

Inappropriate use of the word "snapz".

Originally posted by jumpmann
No one liked World War Hulk. Wasn't even released this year.

Inappropriate use of the word "snapz".

Idiot.

Appropriate use of the word "idiot"

I get what Pr is talking about.

For him, its the characters that are critical rather than the plotlines. I can see where he's coming from.

For example, I never liked transformers after Optimus Prime died. While it was a natural progression, I (and prob many other fans) did not feel the same connection with the replacement.

Its the characters that give you the connection to the story. A great plot is much weaker if you have no connection with the characters. Whereas Pr might enjoy reading about the XMen just playing a game of basketball if it showcases interesting character interaction and development.

It takes years to build up a character...I really can't think of any new characters over the past decade that have attracted a strong following. Spawn was the one character that broke the mold but it was an exception rather than a rule.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I get what Pr is talking about.

For him, its the characters that are critical rather than the plotlines. I can see where he's coming from.

For example, I never liked transformers after Optimus Prime died. While it was a natural progression, I (and prob many other fans) did not feel the same connection with the replacement.

Its the characters that give you the connection to the story. A great plot is much weaker if you have no connection with the characters. Whereas Pr might enjoy reading about the XMen just playing a game of basketball if it showcases interesting character interaction and development.

It takes years to build up a character...I really can't think of any new characters over the past decade that have attracted a strong following. Spawn was the one character that broke the mold but it was an exception rather than a rule.

How many years has Kon-el been around now? Him stepping up to the title Superman is hardly comparable to Superman being replaced by a completely new character.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
How many years has Kon-el been around now? Him stepping up to the title Superman is hardly comparable to Superman being replaced by a completely new character.

Kon-el will never be Kal-el, just like Rodimus will never be Optimus

You're prob gonna say "so what?"

well, I liked transformers because I liked Optimus Prime. Without him, I didn't really care about the transformers universe.

Im not saying everyone or most view comics like this, but a sizable population certainly does, hence companies not willing to do anything drastic to their big icons.

and guys like Superman and Batman and Hulk and Spiderman have been with us for a reason. It wasn't an accident or luck. Those characters connected with their audience and their audience demanded to see more of those characters.

Originally posted by Bada's Palin
Idiot.

Appropriate use of the word "idiot"

Originally posted by jumpmann
No one liked World War Hulk. ".

Really 😑

Originally posted by jumpmann
3/3 in fails.

No one liked WWH huh?

Take a look around the forum, talk to a couple of people.

I'm all for the natural progression of comics,so long as it is natural progression.

There's also something to be said for demographics, and how that plays into this supposed "fear."

Comics have very loyal, and sometimes life-long, fans. But don't fool yourselves. We're the minority. The target group is 13-20 year old males, most of whom give it up at or around the latter age. More loyal fans are also notoriously finicky. To the brass at Marvel/DC, this means we're largely ignored (except when a gigantic fuss is raised) because pleasing even a majority just isn't worth the hassle, if it's possible at all.

To that end, there's a lot to be said for doing what has been proven to work before (i.e. it sells) when you have such a high turnover rate in subscribers, where every 5-10 years you're looking at attracting a brand new audience.

The people keeping the companies in business don't know that PC Superman isn't the current Superman. Or that there's been a billion Flashes, unless they specifically follow Flash (and maybe not even then). They're just thrilled to see the Blue and Red spandex in action, or thrilled to see multiple Flashes in action. Other examples easilly apply here as well.

So yes, it's fear. But not fear of change for teh sake of itself. Plenty of writers, editors, etc. would embrace change. But it's strictly business.