May be off a little: A Borg Invasion in the Galaxy - victors?

Started by jaden1019 pages
jaden101 Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He might have a "decent knowledge" about the types of different ships, but how on earth do you hope to explain his intimate knowledge of the makeup of the Imperial Fleet? He hasn't seen records, he has never seen the whole fleet together, and he wasn't part of the Imperial Court, so he has no reasonable method of acquisition of this information. Don't you think that the Alliance would appreciate the suddenly infallible Han Solo a little more if he told them the exact composition of their enemy's forces?

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The EU doesn't contradict the movies, so it is still canon. Han Solo isn't an infallible 3rd party source so there is no clash: He was simply wrong.

ah so knowing roughly how big the fleet is is the same as knowing exactly how many vessels and the types of those vessels is?

film...canon...the end

and going back to the argument...someone said that the peak of the empire there was 25,000 ships.

still isn't anywhere near the firepower in ST...so they still get destroyed.

the difference between me and most of the people in these forums is that i like SW and ST...and i'm not some 1 sided raging fanboy who cant see past their own biased opinion.

even if you take some of the EU into account it looks pretty dodgy from the SW side...in the thrawn trilogy the Katana fleet and who controls it can decide the fate of the galaxy...and that was only 200 ships.

i hardly think that some 24,000 ships were destroyed between the peak of the empire and the time of the thrawn trilogy

lets not also forget that sidious said that it is not force that keeps the systems in line but fear of force...questioning whether the empire really had the ability to apply massive military force.

and lets not forget the fact that the empire effectively fell at the battle of endor where it only put 50 star destroyers into the battle....surely if it had thousands more then, even with the death of the emperor, they could still have destroyed the alliance with ease.

Gideon Restricted

Jaden, I'm going to have to step in here and side with my cohorts. Now, I realize we just had a touching period of forgiveness, so I'm going to give a vow to not include sarcasm or personal insults.

That said, understand that while the films are G-canon, the characters therein are not omnipotent or omniscient. Otherwise, Palpatine truly is a creature of "unlimited power!" and therefore on par or superior to the likes of Q; Darth Vader is more powerful, in turn, than the Emperor; Count Dooku is more powerful than "any Jedi" (including Yoda); Palpatine and Plagueis can prevent people from dying or summon life from midichlorians; and so on.

The Galactic Empire of a million worlds is hardly limited to a mere thousand Star Destroyers. The figures are astronomical; sourcebooks put figures into the millions; Pellaeon gives a minimalist figure of 25,000.

Don't allow EU minimalism to corrupt your vision, my young padawan. The Galactic Empire's fleets are pretty much phenomenal in size, number, and firepower.

Edit: Regarding the Empire's defeat post-RotJ, it was fragmented entirely due to warlordism; Palpatine designed the Empire to deliberately fracture without his leadership. When Thrawn was elected shogun of the remnants of the Empire, Palpatine was recovering on Byss. He withheld Imperial resources from Thrawn -- the vast, vast, vast majority of them actually -- because of paranoia and betrayal. He is also partially responsible for Thrawn's assassination.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by jaden101
ah so knowing roughly how big the fleet is is the same as knowing exactly how many vessels and the types of those vessels is?

film...canon...the end


The events that took place in the film are canon. I could not argue with you if your claim was that "Han Solo said that '[whatever the exact quote is.]'" I can not dispute that he said it. In this, if in nothing else, you are correct. What you are completely, totally, flat out WRONG about is your assertion that Han Solo knew what he was talking about. Ignoring any of my previous objections, where is your proof that Han Solo is any more credible in a discussion about the Empire's total numbers than Baby Anakin? Han simply is not knowledgeable in this area. Yes, he said it, but that does not automatically make it true.

Originally posted by jaden101

and going back to the argument...someone said that the peak of the empire there was 25,000 ships.

still isn't anywhere near the firepower in ST...so they still get destroyed.


1. I never supported those numbers, nor have I investigated them. The assertion that Han Solo = Absolute authority is all that I initially objected to. Now that I'm here however, I may as well point out to you just where you went wrong.
2. Star Trek Vessels are generally large (most appear about even in size to the Enterprise) and not very maneuverable (Voyager's "evasive action" consisted entirely of a gentle curve away from the enemy). Star Wars Vessels are split into two main categories: Capital Ships and fighters. Capital ships are well fortified yet slow, while fighters are nimble yet easily destroyed in fights with technological equals. Here's where the capacities differ: energy output. A typical capital ship during the clone wars (the Republic Acclamator class) has weaponry that deals damage in the gigaton range. (Each "quad-turbolaser turret deals 200 gigatons/shot.) Federation Shields are capable of giving (according to D. Truculent's site) ~6400 MW 'sustainable load.' This would mean that a single shot from an outdated ship's main gun would punch right through the shields of even one of the more advanced Federation vessels. Numbers won't save the Federation.
Originally posted by jaden101

the difference between me and most of the people in these forums is that i like SW and ST...and i'm not some 1 sided raging fanboy who cant see past their own biased opinion.

My first Scifi experience was Star Trek. If anything I'm predisposed to side with Trek, rather than Wars. (Their technology looks cooler.) The problem is that the facts simply do not support your position.

Also, isn't calling someone a "1 sided raging [biased] fanboy" more insulting than the word "idiot?" Surely this counts as bashing. In fact,
REPORTED

Originally posted by jaden101

even if you take some of the EU into account it looks pretty dodgy from the SW side...in the thrawn trilogy the Katana fleet and who controls it can decide the fate of the galaxy...and that was only 200 ships.

i hardly think that some 24,000 ships were destroyed between the peak of the empire and the time of the Thrawn trilogy


O....K? I haven't supported these numbers and until I refresh my array of sources (I love public libraries) I will not be able to contest this point. Please keep it out of any misguided attempts at rebuttals.
Originally posted by jaden101

lets not also forget that Sidious said that it is not force that keeps the systems in line but fear of force...questioning whether the empire really had the ability to apply massive military force.

So, because Stalin had secret Police he didn't have a powerful army? You realize that a military solution is only necessary when tactics fail? The use of Military Force would only encourage further uprisings: The Emperor was using the most efficient method of Empire control, not the most brutal. He was a pragmatist.
Originally posted by jaden101

and lets not forget the fact that the empire effectively fell at the battle of Endor where it only put 50 star destroyers into the battle....surely if it had thousands more then, even with the death of the emperor, they could still have destroyed the alliance with ease.

And I quote:
Your overconfidence is your weakness.

The empire lost both of its senior (Sith) commanders. The Chain of Command was decimated during that battle. The Emperor wanted to bait a trap, not fortify his position. All of these reasons (and, I suppose PIS) account for the relatively small size of the Empire's fleet at Endor.

Face it: you haven't got a leg to stand on. Han isn't infallible, The Emperor was arrogant, and Star Wars's weapons (and by association their shields) are simply more powerful than their Star Trek counterparts. The Empire wins.

(I didn't even point out that the Acclamator is ~1/9 the strength of a Star Destroyer. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.)

Elite Hunter Senior Member

Originally posted by jaden101
film...canon...the end

It's not that simple, just because Han says something doesn't make it true, (see my Anakin example from ROTS) Han was not in imperial service that long(maybe at year the very most but I doubt it) and when he was he wasn't high enough in the ranks to have access to such knowledge. Han could make a very rough guess based on his adventures but he has no true way of knowing and let's not forget the other types of star destroyers in service.

the difference between me and most of the people in these forums is that i like SW and ST...and i'm not some 1 sided raging fanboy who cant see past their own biased opinion.

Based on what I have read Red Nemesis is not acting like a "raging fanboy."

even if you take some of the EU into account it looks pretty dodgy from the SW side...in the thrawn trilogy the Katana fleet and who controls it can decide the fate of the galaxy...and that was only 200 ships.

The Katana fleet wasn't even star destroyers, it was made of 200 Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser. The reason it was so coveted by Thrawn and the alliance is because it is 200 ready to go cruisers that Thrawn need to due to the lost of many ships from the war with the rebellion/New Republic to imperial warlords fighting each other for power.

lets not also forget that sidious said that it is not force that keeps the systems in line but fear of force...questioning whether the empire really had the ability to apply massive military force.

Are you referring to this? :"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
Tarkin was the one who said that actually in a letter to Sidious, the basic point he was trying to make was that by making examples out of those who rebelled then fear would of the deadly retribution (ex death star blows up a planet) from the empire would cause them cease rebellious activities.

and lets not forget the fact that the empire effectively fell at the battle of endor where it only put 50 star destroyers into the battle....surely if it had thousands more then, even with the death of the emperor, they could still have destroyed the alliance with ease

That was a single fleet which not only had 50 ISD's (and other variants of cruisers and SD's) but it was in the presence of a Super Star Destroyer and more powerful( and bigger) Death star then the one the Luke destroyed. The emperor didn't think he need a vast majority of his fleets present since he "foresaw" his victory and didn't think the shield generator would be lost and then there is the question if he was using battle meditation would could have affected the battle.

The empire didn't fall at the battle of Endor. It obvious had other fleets spread across the galaxy. The war with the rebel alliance still continued to fight the empire who still was in control of Coruscant (despite the celebrations you see in the movie) for another 2 years all the while the empire was fracturing fighting amongst themselves of the New Republic since Palpatine never named a successor ( he never wanted to be replaced) and Vader was dead as well.

Gideon Restricted

Technically, Luke told Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness."

The only reason that the Empire lost that fight even after the destruction of the Death Star is because of the effect Palpatine's death had on the Force. It wasn't just "oh, my leader is dead." It was more along the lines of "the guy who has been controlling the ****ing minds of every person in the fleet for two decades has just died, causing a massive release of Force energy, throwing the fleet into disarray."

Pellaeon called the retreat. But not everyone fled. Grand Admiral Something-or-another spent four hours at Endor, slugging it out with Ackbar and the Rebel fleet. By himself.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
Technically, Luke told Palpatine "your overconfidence is your weakness."

But-But that's what I have down!!

😄

Gideon Restricted

Did you edit that or am I going ****nuts? This is a serious question and if you attempt to manipulate me by lying, I'll have to arrange for a terribly painful death of certain small furry creatures.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Yes?

Which answer will result in the safe passage of as many animals as possible?

As is, I'm in a Schroedinger's edit state: I could have edited it, but I am equally likely not to have done so. Which is most advantageous?

Gideon Restricted

I simply want the truth.

You can save your furry friends from annihilation with honesty.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

I demand free passage for Mr. Mittens first- before I give you anything. The next 30 must be freed after the first word, with the final 33,969 animals free upon my answer.

Gideon Restricted

You're in no position to negotiate. You're not even in the missionary position, much less negotiation position.

You will give me the honest answer or your friends will die.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Well then. I suppose You'll never know just how wrong you are...

Oops. I've said too much.

Or have I?
😈

Gideon Restricted

Okay.

We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay.

We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time.

Bah. Cat's make me sneeze.

Gideon Restricted

But they're also cute. Even those who are allergic love pussy.

Final Blaxican Restricted

Little bastard animals all of them.

Gideon Restricted
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Little bastard animals all of them.

Speaking of tiny, furry creatures, your balls are next on the list of things to go. Better convince Red to tell me the truth.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
Originally posted by Gideon
But they're also cute. Even those who are allergic love pussy.

I don't really go for jailbait, but whatever floats your boat man. Whatever floats your boat.

Gideon Restricted

Water.

Blax, better beg Red to tell the truth.

Final Blaxican Restricted

My testicles have been shaved.

THus, you must be referring to Faunus' little ones.