Originally posted by Final Blaxican
My testicles have been shaved.
Wow, really?
Didn't know Gillette made a razor that small.
THus, you must be referring to Faunus' little ones.
Not interested in microbiology. Suffice it to say we haven't the means to locate his, much less remove them.
Edit: Aroused, Nemesis? Your not-so-well-concealed homosexuality will bear further monitoring in the future. Blax might make his move.
Originally posted by GideonCaptain Valerian reports to me, douchebag. So does Santa Claus.
Okay.We'll start with the kittens. Captain Valerian is lighting up the crematorium. Your felines haven't got much time.
And threatening kittens puts you on the naughty list. GO TO BED AND DON'T PEEK OR SANTA IS GOING TO SIT ON YOU AND GIVE YOUR PRESENTS TO CHARITY.
1. I never supported those numbers, nor have I investigated them. The assertion that Han Solo = Absolute authority is all that I initially objected to. Now that I'm here however, I may as well point out to you just where you went wrong.
2. Star Trek Vessels are generally large (most appear about even in size to the Enterprise) and not very maneuverable (Voyager's "evasive action" consisted entirely of a gentle curve away from the enemy). Star Wars Vessels are split into two main categories: Capital Ships and fighters. Capital ships are well fortified yet slow, while fighters are nimble yet easily destroyed in fights with technological equals. Here's where the capacities differ: energy output. A typical capital ship during the clone wars (the Republic Acclamator class) has weaponry that deals damage in the gigaton range. (Each "quad-turbolaser turret deals 200 gigatons/shot.) Federation Shields are capable of giving (according to D. Truculent's site) ~6400 MW 'sustainable load.' This would mean that a single shot from an outdated ship's main gun would punch right through the shields of even one of the more advanced Federation vessels. Numbers won't save the Federation.
while i understand the point you're attempting to make it must be noted that many, even starwars fans on this forum, have said that in a one on one between a star destroyer and a borg cube...the cube has the advantage
then take what we know from the tactics used on ships just prior to the formation of the empire...the dreadnaughts in the clone wars in battle above corascant with the trade federation ships...they effectively went side by side like old style sailing ships and blasted the hell out of each other.
a single transphasic torpeda laid waste to a borg cube...a ship almost double the size in every direction than the length of a star destroyer.
then there is phased plasma torpedos...that phase out of normal space time and appear inside the shields of enemy vessels before detonating...thus negating any shielding
then there is ablative armour...designed to disipate energy weapons thus showing that even borg weapons had no effect on voyager
other weapons available in the ST universe
Multikinetic Neutronic Mines: weapons of mass destruction that can decimate entire solar systems
dreadnoughts: self functioning missles with sophisticated AI and it's own defences and weaponry capable of warp 9 and a payload of matter and antimatter that can destroy a small moon.
omega particles: capable of destroying subspace over light years of distance....only a few molecules had enough power, when they destabilised, to destroy 29 borg cubes and 600,000 drones.
O....K? I haven't supported these numbers and until I refresh my array of sources (I love public libraries) I will not be able to contest this point. Please keep it out of any misguided attempts at rebuttals.
you haven't supported what numbers?..the 200?...i assure you it's accurate.
still...the end reality is that actual real numbers to go by are virtually impossible...the only real measure is how much damage they do in relation to real universe objects and given what we know about the earth's size and population and compare.
given that alderaan is listed as being almost the same size as the earth and has almost the same planetary cycle then you can form it on that basis.
the death star easily (from the look of it) destroyed it.
Q weapons cause supernova in normal reality.
SW has the death star that can destroy
also take note of some of the things i've already mentioned...omega particles etc.
ironically though....Alderaan is actually mentioned several times in ST
just thought i'd throw that in there.
Hyperdrive is a much more effective method: it actually enters a separate dimension (maybe?) and does the traveling in a region where movement seems much less dependant upon Einstienian laws.
hmm...debatable...very, infact...remember that han warns that without calculations they could pass through a star...thus suggesting normal universe travel.
granted that hyper-space travel is considerably faster than warp but official maps say weeks to months dependant on type of hyperdrive rather than hours or days as you suggest.
and as you've already mentioned there is transwarp which means ships in ST can travel anywhere to fixed points in the galaxy in simply a couple of minutes.
http://www.moviecritic.com.au/images/star-wars-galaxy-map-big-version-detailed12.jpg
the same source also says the galaxy is comparable in size to the milky way but limits the no of habitable planets to "over a million"
if we were to logically scale this up in terms of our own known galaxy then there is as many as 4 times the number of populated planets.
obviously the degree of technological advancement in ST is far greater than what we know in SW to the detriment of ST as some species are even sub light or less.
anyway...i'm sure this debate would go, in terms of the numbers of people on each side, the other way in the ST forums...that much is inevitable due to the nature of such things...
i just enjoy stirring the pot and getting fanboys with no knowlege all flustered (and i think we both know there and more of them in the SW forums than there are people capable of putting up an argument as you are)
Originally posted by jaden101
while i understand the point you're attempting to make it must be noted that many, even starwars fans on this forum, have said that in a one on one between a star destroyer and a borg cube...the cube has the advantage
Originally posted by jaden101
then take what we know from the tactics used on ships just prior to the formation of the empire...the dreadnaughts in the clone wars in battle above corascant with the trade federation ships...they effectively went side by side like old style sailing ships and blasted the hell out of each other.
Originally posted by jaden101
a single transphasic torpeda laid waste to a borg cube...a ship almost double the size in every direction than the length of a star destroyer.
Originally posted by jaden101
then there is phased plasma torpedos...that phase out of normal space time and appear inside the shields of enemy vessels before detonating...thus negating any shielding
EH, Gideon, any thoughts? I'd actually love to talk about the mechanics of SW shields. To Project Holocron!
Originally posted by jaden101
then there is ablative armour...designed to disipate energy weapons thus showing that even borg weapons had no effect on voyager
Originally posted by jaden101
other weapons available in the ST universe
Originally posted by jaden101
Multikinetic Neutronic Mines: weapons of mass destruction that can decimate entire solar systems
Originally posted by jaden101
dreadnoughts: self functioning missles with sophisticated AI and it's own defences and weaponry capable of warp 9 and a payload of matter and antimatter that can destroy a small moon.
Originally posted by jaden101
omega particles: capable of destroying subspace over light years of distance....only a few molecules had enough power, when they destabilised, to destroy 29 borg cubes and 600,000 drones.
What were the mechanics of the explosion? Was is used as a power source, or was it the result of the subspace blast... In either case, were the 600,000 drones in addition to the 29 cubes, or were they the crew. I suppose that it was pretty impressive.
Plot point:
Didn't the Borg see the omega particle as perfection?
Originally posted by jaden101
you haven't supported what numbers?..the 200?...i assure you it's accurate.
Originally posted by jaden101
still...the end reality is that actual real numbers to go by are virtually impossible...the only real measure is how much damage they do in relation to real universe objects and given what we know about the earth's size and population and compare.
Originally posted by jaden101
given that alderaan is listed as being almost the same size as the earth and has almost the same planetary cycle then you can form it on that basis.the death star easily (from the look of it) destroyed it.
Q weapons cause supernova in normal reality.
Originally posted by jaden101
SW has the death star that can destroyalso take note of some of the things i've already mentioned...omega particles etc.
ironically though....Alderaan is actually mentioned several times in ST
just thought i'd throw that in there.
Originally posted by jaden101hmm...debatable...very, infact...remember that han warns that without calculations they could pass through a star...thus suggesting normal universe travel.
Originally posted by jaden101
granted that hyper-space travel is considerably faster than warp but official maps say weeks to months dependant on type of hyperdrive rather than hours or days as you suggest.
Originally posted by jaden101
and as you've already mentioned there is transwarp which means ships in ST can travel anywhere to fixed points in the galaxy in simply a couple of minutes.
Originally posted by jaden101
http://www.moviecritic.com.au/images/star-wars-galaxy-map-big-version-detailed12.jpgthe same source also says the galaxy is comparable in size to the milky way but limits the no of habitable planets to "over a million"
if we were to logically scale this up in terms of our own known galaxy then there is as many as 4 times the number of populated planets.
Originally posted by jaden101
obviously the degree of technological advancement in ST is far greater than what we know in SW to the detriment of ST as some species are even sub light or less.
Originally posted by jaden101
anyway...i'm sure this debate would go, in terms of the numbers of people on each side, the other way in the ST forums...that much is inevitable due to the nature of such things...
EDIT: The Star Trek Forum does not look very open to new ideas about the relative strengths of the series. I will not be starting a new thread there.[/edit]
Originally posted by jaden101
i just enjoy stirring the pot and getting fanboys with no knowlege all flustered (and i think we both know there and more of them in the SW forums than there are people capable of putting up an argument as you are)
Sorry to be pedantic, but there is exactly one known habitable/populated planet in our galaxy. If you mean in the Trek Galaxy then I'd be curious as to where you got your numbers for the planets in Trek/Wars- because I've never found a list/total of species for either universe.
I'm extrapolating...if the SW galaxy is the same distance from end to end as ours (which is what the ST galaxy is set in) yet it only has a 1/4 the number of stars...then it may only have a 1/4 the number of inhabited or inhabitable planets...
I'll give you a chance to correct this: your statement is kind of garbled. It almost sounds like ST is greater because some species are still sub-light. Star Trek technology is flashier and geared more towards comfort and amenities: Star Wars has no corollary to the flamboyant holodeck. I'll leave this up to you to decide if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Trek's standard weaponry however is firmly below that of Star Wars.
i'm not saying it's greater...you're reading it wrong...i was actually putting an argument against ST in that it has alot more variation in advancement of technology compared with that of the SW galaxy.
and no...SW weapons are not definitively more powerful than ST weaponry...although i'd like to see where you got the figures you previously mentioned if you could provide the link that'd perfect.
also you failed to actually give the ST figures and so a comparison is not feasible and so simply saying "they put punch through a federation ships shields" doesn't really hold any merit.
I'd like to think that I'd be winning even if there were more people against me than with me... let's go there and find out! (I'll start/revive the Wars/trek war there too!)
you should...it isn't as closed to new ideas as you'd think...it obviously has alot less in it because of the length of time it's been going compared with the SW threads (given that they are the oldest of all the kmc sections)
What's your point? The Federation basically uses old-style line tactics in a three dimensional stage. In the First Contact fight against the Cube they basically formed a wall and then started swarming against it. The Borg tactics are even worse. Against species 8472, in a fight they could not possibly win, they continued to pour resources into attack. Besides their strategically dubious moves, the Borg also have a near total disregard for tactics. In both ground combat (with drones) and Space fights they essentially advance forward, accepting any losses they might take. Paelleon, Ackbar and even Vader would tear them apart. God help them if they had to deal with Thrawn.
the Borg take huge losses because they are acceptable...29 ships and 600,000 drones all for the creation of the omega particle are just brushed aside as if nothing.
the dominion (an even more powerful and massive empire than that of the borg) on the other hand have superb tactical awareness as well as far more hardened and better engineered soldiers than stormtroopers or clone troopers)...namely the Jem Ha'dar
1. Prove that the Borg had ablative armor.
2. Prove that the Armor used on starships is any different from the armor used in Trek.
3. Prove that protection from phasers will also protect against turbolasers.
1:
The Borg and Hirogen also employ ablative armor on some ships and installations. (VOY: "Drone", "Flesh and Blood"😉
from
http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Ablative_armor
2: if they are the same (as you seem to be insinuating, then clearly ST weaponary is far more powerful because a single transphasic torpedo is enough to destroy a vessel 3 times the size of a star destroyer.
3: prove that it can't without the numbers for the ST ships
the only weakness the borg has is that it can't independantly advance their own technology. they have to assimilate technology from other species and integrate it into their own
there is nothing to suggest that they simply couldn't access data on board a star destroyer (if R2D2 can do it mostly undetected i'm sure a borg can)
not to mention their ability to adapt...they took damage from the enterprise...analysed the weapons and next time they couldn't scratch them. nothing to suggest they wouldn't simply adapt or assimilate SW tech easily after which nothing the SW empire could throw at the borg would make any difference.
I have found that the most fun on the intrawebs is not found in pwning n00bs, but in pwning people who actually know what they are talking about. The full extent of a victory can be better comprehended by an opponent of suitable intelligence than an ignoramus. That's why I got so little satisfaction out of the ID/Ev. debate with knightfa11: even when I won/he quit, he couldn't understand how completely he was going to/had lost. (Just kidding man. But still- I'm always ready to start it back up! evil face )
It's always fun...and with 25 years of star wars and 16 years of star trek watching....i know a decent amount.
😉
Originally posted by jaden101
I'm extrapolating...if the SW galaxy is the same distance from end to end as ours (which is what the ST galaxy is set in) yet it only has a 1/4 the number of stars...then it may only have a 1/4 the number of inhabited or inhabitable planets...
Originally posted by jaden101
i'm not saying it's greater...you're reading it wrong...i was actually putting an argument against ST in that it has alot more variation in advancement of technology compared with that of the SW galaxy.
Originally posted by jaden101
and no...SW weapons are not definitively more powerful than ST weaponry...although i'd like to see where you got the figures you previously mentioned if you could provide the link that'd perfect.
Originally posted by jaden101
also you failed to actually give the ST figures and so a comparison is not feasible and so simply saying "they put punch through a federation ships shields" doesn't really hold any merit.
I based my reasoning from this figure:
Shields Sustainable Load: 6,400 MW
Originally posted by jaden101
you should...it isn't as closed to new ideas as you'd think...it obviously has alot less in it because of the length of time it's been going compared with the SW threads (given that they are the oldest of all the kmc sections)
The posters didn't seem to be particularly enthusiastic about the possibility of a debate. Maybe a prohibition of insults and idiocy will help... *goes to make thread*
Originally posted by jaden101
the Borg take huge losses because they are acceptable...29 ships and 600,000 drones all for the creation of the omega particle are just brushed aside as if nothing.
Originally posted by jaden101
the dominion (an even more powerful and massive empire than that of the borg) on the other hand have superb tactical awareness as well as far more hardened and better engineered soldiers than stormtroopers or clone troopers)...namely the Jem Ha'dar
They are not Borg though. Remember that we are debating Borg vs. Empire, not ST UNIVERSE vs the Empire. I admit that the GALAXY of star trek eclipses the Empire, even if only due to Q's influence. (omnipotence)
Originally posted by jaden101
1:The Borg and Hirogen also employ ablative armor on some ships and installations. (VOY: "Drone", "Flesh and Blood"😉
from
http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Ablative_armor
I'll accept that.
Originally posted by jaden101
2: if they are the same (as you seem to be insinuating, then clearly ST weaponary is far more powerful because a single transphasic torpedo is enough to destroy a vessel 3 times the size of a star destroyer.
You're right, of course, but what my question said wasn't what I meant at all. Here's what I meant, for real this time:
2. Here's what we know: Star Wars weapons (lasers) do more damage than Star Trek's Shields are designed to protect against. Star Trek Weapons do not overload shields in one shot, so we can deduce that they are less powerful. Given this information, prove that the armor on Imperial Starships will react to phasers any differently than they react to turbolasers.
This (and, in hindsight, the original question) is just a roundabout way of saying that Star Wars armor survives stronger hits, so it is stronger than Star Trek armor. I think I will have to concede this point (even in the revised form) because I can think of at least two arguments in response to this challenge. Consider it (this particular challenge) dropped.
Originally posted by jaden101
3: prove that it can't without the numbers for the ST ships.
Originally posted by jaden101
the only weakness the borg has is that it can't independantly advance their own technology. they have to assimilate technology from other species and integrate it into their ownthere is nothing to suggest that they simply couldn't access data on board a star destroyer (if R2D2 can do it mostly undetected i'm sure a borg can)
Originally posted by jaden101
not to mention their ability to adapt...they took damage from the enterprise...analysed the weapons and next time they couldn't scratch them. nothing to suggest they wouldn't simply adapt or assimilate SW tech easily after which nothing the SW empire could throw at the borg would make any difference.
Originally posted by jaden101
It's always fun...and with 25 years of star wars and 16 years of star trek watching....i know a decent amount.😉
Hey, it beats homework!
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I see. What's your source for the 1/4 number? I think it is surprising that the more diverse universe is also the more peaceful. (Star Trek) This is an out of universe issue (what message the writers wanted to convey) but explaining it 'in universe' would be a fun exercise. Thoughts? I've got a few ideas, but I know what I think- what's your take on it?
The first thing to come to mind is the force, off hand I can only think of two major wars that didn't star because of a force user/organization, (notably the sith) which were the Vong War and the Second Galactic Civil War though Luymiya and Darth Caedus played a really big part in escalating the war.
I noticed Red, that you made the sw vs St thread in the ST section. Unfortunately, I am far from a sci fi tech expert so my posting there (and in the st vs threads here) will be limited mostly to correcting continuity errors made but I have a couple of question I would like to ask based on this paragraph.
The Star Wars era that will be used is the Empire era shown in the Original Trilogy. All EU is applicable, so long as it fulfills the canon requirements for its universe. For clarity's sake: The Empire's army does not include Jedi, but it does have Lord Vader, The Emperor, many Emperor's Hands (Force Sensitive assassins) and other trainees in the Dark Side.
If all EU (that fits into the time frame) is allowed then does that mean other major governments in the galaxy (and unknown regions) can play a role such Hapes Consortium and the Chiss Ascendancy . Also what about the planets that were able to maintain it's own fleet such as Corellia (is center point station usable?) and Bothawui (I think?) Is the rebellion around and does the same rule you placed on military alliances apply to SW? Finally what of the Vong which were slowly getting all their forces ready for the invasions.
I'll throw a curveball now. A single cube attempts a suicidal attack against the Death Star. Death Star blows it up. In First Contact, a platoon sized number of Borg managed to get on the Enterprise and nearly assimilated it.
Now what if the same happened to the Death Star? A platoon of Borg drones managed to inflitrate and assimilate a non-critical station of the DS - what would happen? Blasters eventually would be ineffective because drone shields would adapt to it. Blast doors wouldn't work because the Borg would seize control of the main computer and lock it out. Or they would bypass it and find crawlways. Force shields can't work because Borg are known to walk through them. Without Vader's help, I think the DS would be assimilated. And your thoughts . . .
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The first thing to come to mind is the force, off hand I can only think of two major wars that didn't star because of a force user/organization, (notably the sith) which were the Vong War and the Second Galactic Civil War though Luymiya and Darth Caedus played a really big part in escalating the war.
Originally posted by Elite HunterThe purpose of that paragraph was to narrow down the Star Wars side, and to provide some semblence of symmetry to a contest that without restrictions would be lopsided. (Q is really off putting. He messes things up.)
I noticed Red, that you made the sw vs St thread in the ST section. Unfortunately, I am far from a sci fi tech expert so my posting there (and in the st vs threads here) will be limited mostly to correcting continuity errors made but I have a couple of question I would like to ask based on this paragraph.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
If all EU (that fits into the time frame) is allowed then does that mean other major governments in the galaxy (and unknown regions) can play a role such Hapes Consortium and the Chiss Ascendancy . Also what about the planets that were able to maintain it's own fleet such as Corellia (is center point station usable?) and Bothawui (I think?) Is the rebellion around and does the same rule you placed on military alliances apply to SW? Finally what of the Vong which were slowly getting all their forces ready for the invasions.
Powers that are not under imperial control don't qualify, unless another poster wants to argue the Chiss vs. the Borg. The same arguments might apply, but there are so many more unknowns that it would probably be impossible.
So- in order of asking:
1. They could play a role, yes, but they would not be able to join with the Empire.
2. I have no idea about Correllia, but I suppose that if ST gets superweapons so does SW. Centerpoint station is usable. As for the Correllian fleet, I don't know what level of Autonomy it retained; if it was a section of the Imp. Army it is usable, but if it was totally separate then it isn't.
3. The Military alliance rule applies to SW.
4. The Vong would probably require their own thread, mostly because I don't know much about them. I wouldn't complain if someone made an argument for them, but it won't be me.
...
I just got a killer idea: Borg vs. Vong
Also, Borg vs. Zerg
And by the transitive property: Zerg vs. Vong.
Did your mind just explode or what?!?!(one)
The Borg vs. Vong would raise the same problems as S. 8472- the Vong's shapers might mimic/defend against the nanoprobes and push the collective back. The idea of a confrontation is nerdvanna.
