Revan vs Caedus

The problem is that Lumiya was but an Emperor's Hand; like Mara Jade, she was only taught and shown precisely what Palpatine wanted her to see. I refer you to Mara Jade's testimony in the Hand of Thrawn duology where she claims that Grand Admiral Thrawn possessed superior political acumen than Palpatine himself.

The Emperor had a notorious history of limiting the knowledge of his subordinates; he is on record to have limited Tyranus's knowledge of the Sith; he cut dark side adept and Inquisitor Jerec off from the Dark Side Compendium; Vader's own musings in the Rise of Darth Vader conclude that Palpatine doled out "precious bits of Sith knowledge" that kept Vader hungry for more but not enough "to make him supremely powerful."

Logic dictates that Lumiya was relatively ignorant of the true scope of Palpatine's power (even though she'd later go on to tell Jacen that the Emperor's power was "limitless."😉. Furthermore, Jacen's five-year-sojourn across the backwaters and fringes of the galaxy would certainly yield a startling amount of knowledge, especially when compared to Luke Skywalker who had a laughable knowledge base to begin with and was active in the New Republic military, which largely prevented him from going on such treks.

But to compare him to Palpatine is also a joke; the Emperor spent twenty years as the galaxy's sole dictator of the galaxy's sole superpower. He "gathered the greatest works" of Force knowledge from "a million worlds" and heaps of Sith artifacts and arcana. He was a superb alchemist, having Naga Sadow's knowledge as well as having mastered the Krath (according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook), not to mention the reservoir that is the Telos and Tedryn Holocron.

As far as that goes, let me say explicitly that Palpatine has demonstrated the greatest command and knowledge of the Force out of anyone in the mythos ever. No one compares.

Though I will say that it's also a bit of a chuckle to think that Darth Revan's relatively minor stint with the dark side is enough to yield truly uber Force knowledge. His fanboyism knows no bounds.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
We don't know what Revan taught Bane. We know Bane was afraid to learn some of the techniques in the holocron and the one thing he DID take was the thought bomb. Not to mention you haven't made a single valid point in your half assed argument, so leave it to the big boys now.

That was the point of my response. Using "OMG BANE WUZ SKARED OF REVANS LURNIN" isn't enough to substantiate your claim that Revan's knowledge is more applicable to combat than is Caedus's. You said it yourself: We don't know what Revan taught Bane. Because of the uncertainty inherent in Revan's abilities we have to work only with what we know- there is too much room for error in speculation. You can't just guess. You have no proof that Revan would have a snowball's chance in hell.

Caedus wins this confrontation.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was the point of my response. Using "OMG BANE WUZ SKARED OF REVANS LURNIN" isn't enough to substantiate your claim that Revan's knowledge is more applicable to combat than is Caedus's. You said it yourself: We don't know what Revan taught Bane. Because of the uncertainty inherent in Revan's abilities we have to work only with what we know- there is too much room for error in speculation. You can't just guess. You have no proof that Revan would have a snowball's chance in hell.

Caedus wins this confrontation.

ROFL... SO because of your inability to surmise Revan's fighting capabilities, Caedus wins by default? No wonder you get flamed.

Though I will say that it's also a bit of a chuckle to think that Darth Revan's relatively minor stint with the dark side is enough to yield truly uber Force knowledge. His fanboyism knows no bounds. [/B]

Compared to Vader and Caedus? It most certainly is logical.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ROFL... SO because of your inability to surmise Revan's fighting capabilities, Caedus wins by default? No wonder you get flamed.

That's your best argument? Because I base my decisions on proven fact I'm wrong? Care to explain why you can make up facts/feats in favor of your character? Your only point so far has been that Bane was afraid of Revan's teachings. This (sadly) does not show that Revan was particularly adept in combat, as many (if not all) of the abilities could have been rituals, or even non-combat related.

Your inability to argue a point does not make my position untenable. So, yet again you have failed to actually contribute anything of value to the discussion.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That's your best argument? Because I base my decisions on proven fact I'm wrong? Care to explain why you can make up facts/feats in favor of your character? Your only point so far has been that Bane was afraid of Revan's teachings. This (sadly) does not show that Revan was particularly adept in combat, as many (if not all) of the abilities could have been rituals, or even non-combat related.

Your inability to argue a point does not make my position untenable. So, yet again you have failed to actually contribute anything of value to the discussion.

Your inability to argue at ALL is why you constantly get flamed. Again, leave it to the big boys seeing as how you haven't made a single useful post.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, my argument about Vader and Caedus is based on facts. Your argument is that because in your mind I failed to prove something to someone as dumb as you, then it MUST be the other extreme.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Your inability to argue at ALL is why you constantly get flamed. Again, leave it to the big boys seeing as how you haven't made a single useful post.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

There you go again, talking about Vader. I conceded that point. I really don't care about Vader/Caedus because it has been settled by out of universe narration. We're talking about Revan.

Did I miss something? I don't think that I've ever actually been flamed. BOOG might count, but he was a troll and I'm trying to forget him. Sidious66 might count, except that he never said anything offensive to me, I just got frustrated at his refusal to look at the facts. Am I missing anyone? I can't think of anyone that I've actually gotten into a flame war with. You're delusional. At least I can stay on topic. [/B]

My argument was Revan's relevant force knowledge, and at the very least, dark side knowledge, is superior to Caedus. Caedus might have broader force knowledge but that doesn't say much overall. My points are FACTS, yours are baseless opinions. Try again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My argument was Revan's relevant force knowledge, and at the very least, dark side knowledge, is superior to Caedus.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Caedus might have broader force knowledge but that doesn't say much overall.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

My points are FACTS, yours are baseless opinions. Try again.

You're clearly getting desperate. You are incorrect. Your opinion is not backed by any canon source. You have lost. Stop acting like a child and just admit that you are wrong. Caedus has shown more and more powerful Force abilities than has Revan. On top of this he can contend with the most powerful Jedi (Luke) in the saga. Jacen is simply better. [/B]

Translation: I have no argument so I am going to claim that because he has not convinced me, that I am right for whatever reason.

Stop embarrassing yourself. Jacen being able to compete with Luke is NOT a determinant of his alleged superiority to Revan, nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every sith. Him being able to flow walk has NOTHING to do with combat situations. You need to either go back to the drawing board or concede this piss poor attempt at an argument.

Love is in the air...

What's love got to do... got to do with it?

Both of you stfu.

wow, real mature...

Isn't he though?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every sith.

In Invincible Jaina noted multiple times then she can't believe he is coming after her intensely as he was. This is coming from someone fought against the vong in combat, who value pain more thany any other species in sw. Yet she was still surprised how Jacen has taken wounds that "would have left most humans paralyze with agony" and "thrive" on it.

The facts are Caedus has shown more force abilities that are useful in combat then Revan has.

Revan has force lightning,force choke/tk, and battle precog. What else has he physically shown us that we can debate on?

Caedus can mask his presence in the force(surprise attack), he has paralyzed by using the foce, he cut Ben Skywalker from it without him noticing then reconnected him to it, (showing no effort in doing so) force lightning, he blocked turbolaser fire from a chiss dropship with his hand, his force speed allowed him to move as blur in his duel with Luke and allowed him in Betrayal (I believe) to outrun blaster fire, shatterpoint,,choke,tk (even with a lightsaber in his gut), advance battle awareness, battle precog, he can produce force illusions which as Gideon said back on page one was able to deceive/manipulate Luke.

Based on the abilities that both have physically used, there is nothing in Revan's arsenal that Caedus can't use.

I would also like for someone who Darth Bane"Path of Destruction to quote the passage that mentions Bane being scared to try some of the stuff Revan knew, because wookieepedia's page(as wells as former posters here on kmc use to say) on Revan's holocron mentions that Bane was scared to try some of the rituals Revan knew but as we know rituals take time that one doesn't have in one on one combat.

Just to add, we also aren't learned in the intensity and power of the few known techniques of Revan He's a useless figure for vs.

After Bane's activation of Darth Revan's holocron:

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction pg. 173 in the Microsoft Word document
[...]
Then a voice spoke, crisp and clear. "I am Darth Revan, Dark Lord of the Sith."

The empty halls of the Temple above trembled with the reverberations of Bane's triumphant, booming laughter.

To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth later.

And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.

I think it cements the fact that Bane's fear was only aimed at rituals, not combat techniques. Some portion of the holocron was also philisophical in nature- "weeks" of Bane's study appears to have been on political manipulations and theology/philosophy, rather than on combat. Revan's holocron does not appear to hold any major combat advantage at all. If he had any major innovations in dueling wouldn't his holocron be the place to store them?

EH appears to have dealt with your attempt at a feat war, so I will focus on the more vitriolic portions of your attempt.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Translation: I have no argument so I am going to claim that because he has not convinced me, that I am right for whatever reason.

Because you don't have any proof at all you have to resort to attacking me instead of actually making an argument.

You still haven't made any points in favor of Darth Revan. My position is backed by feats and canon narration. Your position is backed by conjecture and biased (fanboy) stubbornness. Guess which one is more persuasive.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Stop embarrassing yourself. Jacen being able to compete with Luke is NOT a determinant of his alleged superiority to Revan, nor is his ability to withstand pain, which is an attribute of almost every Sith. Him being able to flow walk has NOTHING to do with combat situations. You need to either go back to the drawing board or concede this piss poor attempt at an argument.

You keep saying that I'm 'embarrassing' myself or that my argument is weak, yet you haven't provided any evidence in favor of your position. EH has listed many of Jacen's feats during LotF, and I'm sure that there are even more from the Dark Nest trilogy. You didn't even bother to provide us any cases (there should be more than one or two) of a Sith with pain resistance. With the exception of Sion, I can't think of any Sith Lord with pain resistance on par with Jacen's. It's almost like you think you can BS your way out of this train wreck you call an argument. That simply isn't going to cut it. Either provide us with some specifics and proof or go away.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
EH appears to have dealt with your attempt at a feat war, so I will focus on the more vitriolic portions of your attempt.

You really aren't very good at this, are you?

Because you don't have any proof at all you have to resort to attacking me instead of actually making an argument.

You still haven't made any points in favor of Darth Revan. My position is backed by feats and canon narration. Your position is backed by conjecture and biased (fanboy) stubbornness. Guess which one is more persuasive.

You keep saying that I'm 'embarrassing' myself or that my argument is weak, yet you haven't provided any evidence in favor of your position. EH has listed many of Jacen's feats during LotF, and I'm sure that there are even more from the Dark Nest trilogy. You didn't even bother to provide us any cases (there should be more than one or two) of a Sith with pain resistance. With the exception of Sion, I can't think of any Sith Lord with pain resistance on par with Jacen's. It's almost like you think you can BS your way out of this train wreck you call an argument. That simply isn't going to cut it. Either provide us with some specifics and proof or go away. [/B]

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself. Your "you can't convince me so Caedus is better!" argument holds no water.