Israeli Bombing raids, over the top?

Originally posted by shiv
It is an analogy which takes into account the resources Available within the region which has resulted in an Economy focused around Land Tourism and Food production
Israel is heavily dependant on imports for energy technology minerals industrial chemicals textiles cereals and red meat etc.

Israel is a strong exporter of produce from perennial market gardening projects.
Avocado es
Citrus*seasonal*
Sweet peppers predominantly red/green varieties
tomatoes
etc these crops can thrive on irrigated sandy loam type soils production of vegetables is an all year round activity given the latitude.

As for the analogy of the farm itself It reflects the conflict based around land

Where your cattle have been trampling over your neighbours crop [A neighbour who's farmed peacefully there before you arrived on the scene.] Now he's angry.

I made reference to your cattle pen being 200 acres away from the neighbour with a catapult.
On a large flat plain you would have to be a moron to walk 200 acres to the neighbouring territory and stand still within striking distance of a stone thrown from a catapult.

In this case you would have to be a moron to violate restraining orders issued by the the Security Council and The International Court of Justice. to GTFO.

So the guy is yelling, "******ing cows... $&5@*($%&^%er!!" and generally pulling his teeth out and Shooting stones from his catapult at a target out of range. You drive up to the fence and shout for an hour. Another neighbour looking in on the action with binoculars intervenes, calling the Sheriff. The Sheriff arrives and says fellas, fellas, "Stay away from each other." *points*..."You! climb back in your vehicle and keep your herd on the far side away from your neighbours crop. Or I'll bring you in." The Sheriff tells the other farmer; "You gots to chill. if you take the law into your own hands I'll have to bring you in too!"

The Sheriff leaves and You swing a U-turn and walk to where you can see the whites of his eyes. You get hit with a stone. It scuffs your shoe. You get mad and jump in your jeep and head to your living quarters which are naturally 200 acres away overlooking the cattle pen.
You take out a sniper rifle drive back and stop 1000 feet from the edge of your territory and snipe your neighbour for attacking you. Never mind that your cows were trampling over his crops in the first place.

First off, Israel's 'tourism business' isn't -that- good. We rely on food, like you said, but above all, we rely on technological advancements. We're a very technologically advanced country, all things considered.

Also, you want a good analogy for a farm? Here ya go.

There's this farm. Really big farm. There's an almost community-sized family living in there. Their farm, however, is regularly raided by bandits coming from outside the farm and attempt to conquer it- because it's an immensely valuable farm. One day, however, a particularly powerful family of bandits arrive and break into the farm. They gave the previous family who lived there a choice; get out or die. Naturally, the original family is forced to abandon their farm.

Through the course of 2000 years, the family wanders around the globe. Y'see, they tried to settle in numerous places, but things got in the way. They had a slightly different skin tone than the mainstream people- which made it easy to brand them as outcasts. Outsiders. Racism got to them and they were never able to settle in one place or another, although their own arrogance and self-importance did get in the way. Eventually, however, the drifter family- which grew immensely in size- is attacked by a group of racist thugs, killing half of them with high powered guns 'just because'. Jailing these people, the government decides to give the family their old home back.

Now, the old farm has expanded greatly- the conquering family has now been replaced by a relatively peaceful society who now live there. The government strikes a deal with them and with the old family, causing them to share the farm relatively half and half and attempt to co-exist. Naturally, it fails, with tensions growing between the workers of the farm. Erupting into violence, the government is called in- deciding to leave the family the farm and give the society a new, but smaller and more undeveloped farm.

The society is angry. They decide to attack the farm with a catapult throwing massive stones at them. Now, the stones are in range and the farm is damaged by them. Cattle are crushed, walls are brought down, and general property damage is caused. Not wanting to engage in war again, the family ignores this- for 8 years. They are unable to leave their houses at certain times, for fear of being hit by the rocks and killed. Therefore, they are- sometimes- put under a version of house arrest, due to the oppression caused by the other farm. Now, one day, one of the head farmer's kids is playing outside when a rock comes crashing down, killing him. This upsets the farmer. Deciding that enough is enough, he grabs a sniper rifle and aims it at the smaller farm. Now, he gives them a proposition- stop this attacks or you die. Predictably, the society, hellbent on getting their farm back, refuses, though perhaps only due to fanatical leadership.

The head farmers aims at the other head farmer- but wait! He's hiding directly behind his wife. Deciding he has no choice, the farmer shoots at the wife, the bullet penetrating her body and killing both her and the farmer.

You see, this is a much better story that actually depicts reality. Strangely, you happen to think that the Israelis trampled all over the Palestinian land, for absolutely no reason, and that the Palestinians harmlessly 'throw rocks at them'. Rocks that can kill and destroy the lives of over 200,000 people, maybe.

The story is a bit different, and a bit less black and white. The truth is, Israel did attempt to come to a compromise (though not enough in my opinion) and didn't attack on low provocation. Also, are you aware of the fact that Israeli military intelligence has proven that the Palestinians built a complex of underground tunnels connecting them to Iraq, from where Iraq is supplying them missiles, guns, etc? The oppression can last eternally this way- not to mention that they were clearly stocking up for a attack of even larger proportions. Stop your bias and see reality.

native americans had an entire continent taken away far more recently, but you dont see the US giving it back any time soon do you?
same thing with african americans and the talk of restitution. no one is getting anything the reason is it wasnt you who suffered, we dont owe you an apology either for it....so why should some one feel that a parcel of land is rightfully theirs or even disserve it when they nor their ascentors were even the original inhabitants.

Native Americans had their land taken away more recently? What the hell are you on? Israel was founded in 1948. America was fully colonized during the 19th century.

Fact is, the Jews around the world had no place to inhabit. No home, no country. This obviously resulted in extreme racism and crimes against them, dismissing them as a parasitic society. The culmination of all this came in the form of the holocaust- the idea of 'scouring' the 'Jewish disease' from the entire world. That's when the world understood that Jews couldn't continue to inhabit other people's countries- no, that many them far more vulnerable to racial crimes and all. They needed, shall I say, a 'refuge'.

So Palestine was given to the Jews. There's proof that it was the place the Jews' ancestors inhabited. I, however, don't necessarily think that our country should be specifically here, in the midst of people who hate the **** out of us. But it's too late now to just evacuate it, and there's no question the Jews are in need of a country to inhabit.

Besides, there are plans to give the Palestinians a good portion of our land. To divide Israel into a 'Jewish' and a 'Palestinian' nation, which I feel would be completely fair. It might've been better if we weren't obsessed with tradition and religion, and chose the more efficient route of inhabiting a less war-torn land.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First off, Israel's 'tourism business' isn't -that- good. We rely on food, like you said, but above all, we rely on technological advancements. We're a very technologically advanced country, all things considered.

Also, you want a good analogy for a farm? Here ya go.

There's this farm. Really big farm. There's an almost community-sized family living in there. Their farm, however, is regularly raided by bandits coming from outside the farm and attempt to conquer it- because it's an immensely valuable farm. One day, however, a particularly powerful family of bandits arrive and break into the farm. They gave the previous family who lived there a choice; get out or die. Naturally, the original family is forced to abandon their farm.

Through the course of 2000 years, the family wanders around the globe. Y'see, they tried to settle in numerous places, but things got in the way. They had a slightly different skin tone than the mainstream people- which made it easy to brand them as outcasts. Outsiders. Racism got to them and they were never able to settle in one place or another, although their own arrogance and self-importance did get in the way. Eventually, however, the drifter family- which grew immensely in size- is attacked by a group of racist thugs, killing half of them with high powered guns 'just because'. Jailing these people, the government decides to give the family their old home back.

Now, the old farm has expanded greatly- the conquering family has now been replaced by a relatively peaceful society who now live there. The government strikes a deal with them and with the old family, causing them to share the farm relatively half and half and attempt to co-exist. Naturally, it fails, with tensions growing between the workers of the farm. Erupting into violence, the government is called in- deciding to leave the family the farm and give the society a new, but smaller and more undeveloped farm.

The society is angry. They decide to attack the farm with a catapult throwing massive stones at them. Now, the stones are in range and the farm is damaged by them. Cattle are crushed, walls are brought down, and general property damage is caused. Not wanting to engage in war again, the family ignores this- for 8 years. They are unable to leave their houses at certain times, for fear of being hit by the rocks and killed. Therefore, they are- sometimes- put under a version of house arrest, due to the oppression caused by the other farm. Now, one day, one of the head farmer's kids is playing outside when a rock comes crashing down, killing him. This upsets the farmer. Deciding that enough is enough, he grabs a sniper rifle and aims it at the smaller farm. Now, he gives them a proposition- stop this attacks or you die. Predictably, the society, hellbent on getting their farm back, refuses, though perhaps only due to fanatical leadership.

The head farmers aims at the other head farmer- but wait! He's hiding directly behind his wife. Deciding he has no choice, the farmer shoots at the wife, the bullet penetrating her body and killing both her and the farmer.

You see, this is a much better story that actually depicts reality. Strangely, you happen to think that the Israelis trampled all over the Palestinian land, for absolutely no reason, and that the Palestinians harmlessly 'throw rocks at them'. Rocks that can kill and destroy the lives of over 200,000 people, maybe.

The story is a bit different, and a bit less black and white. The truth is, Israel did attempt to come to a compromise (though not enough in my opinion) and didn't attack on low provocation. Also, are you aware of the fact that Israeli military intelligence has proven that the Palestinians built a complex of underground tunnels connecting them to Iraq, from where Iraq is supplying them missiles, guns, etc? The oppression can last eternally this way- not to mention that they were clearly stocking up for a attack of even larger proportions. Stop your bias and see reality

. .

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Native Americans had their land taken away more recently? What the hell are you on? Israel was founded in 1948. America was fully colonized during the 19th century.

Fact is, the Jews around the world had no place to inhabit. No home, no country. This obviously resulted in extreme racism and crimes against them, dismissing them as a parasitic society. The culmination of all this came in the form of the holocaust- the idea of 'scouring' the 'Jewish disease' from the entire world. That's when the world understood that Jews couldn't continue to inhabit other people's countries- no, that many them far more vulnerable to racial crimes and all. They needed, shall I say, a 'refuge'.

So Palestine was given to the Jews. There's proof that it was the place the Jews' ancestors inhabited. I, however, don't necessarily think that our country should be specifically here, in the midst of people who hate the **** out of us. But it's too late now to just evacuate it, and there's no question the Jews are in need of a country to inhabit.

Besides, there are plans to give the Palestinians a good portion of our land. To divide Israel into a 'Jewish' and a 'Palestinian' nation, which I feel would be completely fair. It might've been better if we weren't obsessed with tradition and religion, and chose the more efficient route of inhabiting a less war-torn land.

Being A Jew is not a "race" It is a religion. Despite what The Jews in their arrogance say. They are Mesopotamian or ,The same people. Most countries are very tolerant of religions so this "refuge" thing is crap. There are three races on the planet ,( this is science if anyone wants to look it up) Aryan. Mongoloid and , African everything else is a mix through the centuries of interracial breeding. So its The Religion that distinguishes you....Thats it. There was no need for an area to occupy. You were put there so the west would have an Ally in that region. You can practice Judaism anywhere.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
native americans had an entire continent taken away far more recently, but you dont see the US giving it back any time soon do you?
same thing with african americans and the talk of restitution. no one is getting anything the reason is it wasnt you who suffered, we dont owe you an apology either for it....so why should some one feel that a parcel of land is rightfully theirs or even disserve it when they nor their ascentors were even the original inhabitants.

What a ridiculous comparison to make. A UN mandate from the '40's is equal to colonial expansionism and slavery policies which the whole "civilized" world embraced and practiced from the 1400's to the 1800's? Although the damage done to the NA's and AA's by anglo-saxons at the time is horrendous, subsequent generations have made an effort to make right human rights violations that are hundreds of years old. In contrast, the UN in 1948 was trying to right the wrong, in some small way, of the world's disinterest in the mass-slaughter of Jews by Germany. This was made even worse by the fact that the atrocities you mentioned should have been learned from and America, Britain and the rest should have gotten involved much sooner than they did. Also the legal purchase of land in Palestine by Jews started long before WW2.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Being A Jew is not a "race" It is a religion. Despite what The Jews in their arrogance say. They are Mesopotamian or ,The same people. Most countries are very tolerant of religions so this "refuge" thing is crap. There are three races on the planet ,( this is science if anyone wants to look it up) Aryan. Mongoloid and , African everything else is a mix through the centuries of interracial breeding. So its The Religion that distinguishes you....Thats it. There was no need for an area to occupy. You were put there so the west would have an Ally in that region. You can practice Judaism anywhere.

Calm down Adolph, It's caucasion, not Aryan. Big Smile!

"Anthropologists long ago discovered that humans' physical traits vary gradually, with groups that are close geographic neighbors being more similar than groups that are geographically separated. This pattern of variation, known as clinal variation, is also observed for many alleles that vary from one human group to another. Another observation is that traits or alleles that vary from one group to another do not vary at the same rate. This pattern is referred to as nonconcordant variation. Because the variation of physical traits is clinal and nonconcordant, anthropologists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries discovered that the more traits and the more human groups they measured, the fewer discrete differences they observed among races and the more categories they had to create to classify human beings. The number of races observed expanded to the 30s and 50s, and eventually anthropologists concluded that there were no discrete races (Marks, 2002). Twentieth and 21st century biomedical researchers have discovered this same feature when evaluating human variation at the level of alleles and allele frequencies. Nature has not created four or five distinct, nonoverlapping genetic groups of people."

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Being A Jew is not a "race" It is a religion. Despite what The Jews in their arrogance say. They are Mesopotamian or ,The same people. Most countries are very tolerant of religions so this "refuge" thing is crap. There are three races on the planet ,( this is science if anyone wants to look it up) Aryan. Mongoloid and , African everything else is a mix through the centuries of interracial breeding. So its The Religion that distinguishes you....Thats it. There was no need for an area to occupy. You were put there so the west would have an Ally in that region. You can practice Judaism anywhere.

It is a race, you are wrong.

Unless incest and inbreeding is commonplace in Jewish circles how can anyone say with a straight face that they are the direct descendants of the People who lived on that territory 2 millenia ago and can provide a dna match to back up the claim.

I'm calling shenanigans.

Originally posted by jaden101

As for what Hamas would want should Israel allow a two state solution to occur. They would want what they've always wanted and what their original charter states. The destruction of Israel. Regardless of whether they've removed this or not. They've stated that the only time they would consider a ceasefire with Israel is if they retreat back to the land they had pre 1967. Yet they still continued to attack Israel with rockets despite them making the 1st real step towards a solution.

Originally posted by backdoorman
Did Israel agree or even seriously debate the idea of retreating back to the land they had pre-1967? Therein lies perhaps the reason for the Palestinians' continued rocket assaults.

I know they've seriously considered halving or completely giving Jerusalem to the pallies in the past. It wouldn't have worked, though.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It is a race, you are wrong.

Exactly. And I don't understand why we can't covert to other races. If I want to be black my genetic history should change to reflect that fact just as it does when people convert to Judaism.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
There are three races on the planet ,( this is science if anyone wants to look it up) Aryan. Mongoloid and , African everything else is a mix through the centuries of interracial breeding.

My god anthropology hasn't advanced since the 1800s!

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It is a race, you are wrong.

No. YOu are wrong 😄

Ok so may I ask the scholars out there ....What is the distinction for a "Race"?

Originally posted by shiv
. .

I think it says something about your intelligence when the only thing you are capable of doing is to post pictures of Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, eh?

Oh, by the way, Jews have inbred and practiced internal marriage throughout the course of history. In my opinion, it's due to arrogance and a general air of superiority, but that's besides the point. The Jewish religion is also very unaccepting of people converting to Judaism. All of these facts enforce the idea that we are descended from people who lived in Israel 2000 years ago.

Not that it really matters anyway. The point is, Jews have been traditionally oppressed and massacred throughout history- they are in need of a country to inhabit, lest a holocaust will occur again.

Lycanthrope, you're a moron. The Jewish people do function as a part of a race that composes of them and Arabs. Middle-eastern. But Judaism does function as an essential race in history. Maybe not entirely biologically, but if you look throughout history, the Jews functioned as their own independent race.

Judaism is different from Islam and Christianity in that sense. The Jews led an entirely different way of life from other people there- defined by their unique culture. They acted as a minority in countries- they had no real government of their own, and were always forced to live in the mercy of the dominant majority.

I can't believe you claim that Jews don't need their own country. That somehow we're 'free to practice Judaism anywhere we like'. What are you gonna do next? Become a holocaust denier and join the neo-nazis? History has proven that minorities make an easy scapegoat which one can attack and channel their hatred into. Judaism- with it functioning as its own society- is no different. Look it up; the Inquisition, the Holocaust, for example.

That's all because we didn't have a country of our own, and instead were forced to depend on other countries to survive. That's why need our own refuge- a location where Jews are free to police themselves, without fear of oppression and attacks by the intolerant masses. Arguing against the fundamental existence of an Israel-like state is impossible.

By the way, here are some definitions for race:

-A group of persons related by common descent or heredity. [The Jews are all descended from the Israelities; check.]
-A population so related. [The Jews are directly related by ethinicity and religion; check.]
-Any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc. [Double check. Language: Yiddish and Hebrew. History: Exiled from Israel by invading nations, and forced to live a parastic existence among different countries. Cultural traits: practicing unique Jewish traditions.]

Yes, we are most definitely a race. And every race deserves to have its own country, its own government, and its own ability to legitimately exist.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Ok so may I ask the scholars out there ....What is the distinction for a "Race"?

A race is any inbreeding group, including taxonomic subgroups such as subspecies, taxonomically subordinate to a species and superordinate to a subrace and marked by a pre-determined profile of latent factors of hereditary traits.

Duh.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
There are three races on the planet ,( this is science if anyone wants to look it up) Aryan. Mongoloid and , African everything else is a mix through the centuries of interracial breeding.

Oh jaysis.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Ok so may I ask the scholars out there ....What is the distinction for a "Race"?

It's sure not Aryan, Mongoloid and African.
Here, try this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Defining_race
Just don't take it as gospel, it is wikipedia after all.