Israeli Bombing raids, over the top?

Giving up land!!!???

Are you mad, look at the map a few posts up I added.

Comparing a lunatic dictator (us supported in the beginning I might add) to Israel is rather silly, and a whole different situation.

The situation Israel and the Palestinians are in is no win one for either side, Israel want´s to survive and grow as a nation, the Muslims want their land and holy sites back.

Just saw on the news a demonstration in London against the Israeli Embassy led by George Galloway MP. He is very pro active on the Palestinian side, what is his part in this anyway?

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Giving up land!!!???

Are you mad, look at the map a few posts up I added.

Comparing a lunatic dictator (us supported in the beginning I might add) to Israel is rather silly, and a whole different situation.

The situation Israel and the Palestinians are in is no win one for either side, Israel want´s to survive and grow as a nation, the Muslims want their land and holy sites back.

Just saw on the news a demonstration in London against the Israeli Embassy led by George Galloway MP. He is very pro active on the Palestinian side, what is his part in this anyway?

Yes, Israel has given up land, remember that war it had in 73? It took land and has given it back, the only thing Israel gets in return, are more Shenanigans.

You made a reference that if an 'Arab country attacked/murdered', there'd be repercussions, while Israel gets a free pass. I used Iraq as an example of how NATO and the UN didn't do a thing then.

Of course it is, but Israel has shown that if it is left along, it leaves it's neighbors alone. They're also surrounded by nations who literally want them wiped off the planet and will not compromise on this.

He's a clown who get's Arab money to act like a clown.

What's the official reason Hamas attacked this time?

I just want to point out once again that if any other nation were in a similar position to Israel, they would have taken the west bank, the golan heights, and gaza 15 years ago and you would hear barely a peep out of anyone else in protest.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I just want to point out once again that if any other nation were in a similar position to Israel, they would have taken the west bank, the golan heights, and gaza 15 years ago and you would hear barely a peep out of anyone else in protest.

If all the Jews were to magically vanish away and the Palestians moved throughout the land, they'd hold onto it for about 12 minutes. Jordan, Egypt and Syria would wipe then out as they spread in for more land/resources and no one would say a peep. The Palestians are little more than a sympathy-tool for the Arab countries that want Israel gone.

Israel isn't doing enough. Without American support the Arab world would butcher all 4 million Israelis. how's that for over the top? Everyone loves to paint Israel as soooooevil. But what about all the Palestinian "civilian" suicide bombers. Israel is only doing what it has to to survive.

And where has it gotten them...?

Something has to break the cycle of hate on both sides.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And where has it gotten them...?

Something has to break the cycle of hate on both sides.

You're right, but if you're Israel and the otherside has a policy of "you need to die before there can be peace", what do you do?

Edit: If Hamas (and the like) threw away their arms and their anti-Israel Arab supporters stopped as well, there would be some level of peace in that region. If Israel threw away their weapons and America bailed out, holocaust 2.0 would reign.

Die?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Die?

Logically do.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And where has it gotten them...?.

In that Israel still exists, that's probably what they think they've got out of it. That's a powerful argument for those living there.

Indeed its a noodle scratcher.

The first thing would be work harder on intelligence/infiltration groups, and take out those who perpentrate the attacks rather than just blanket knee jerk or sloppy attacks that create murdered-family anger issues/a sense of martyrdom in them from childhood.
(I know this is easier said than done, but as aims go...)

Then "divide the land 50/50 and ban all religion" isn't practical, in reality, but if we could I'd say 'go for it'.
Looking into the history of how we were combatting the IRA might be a good model....to learn from mistakes if anything...
Other than that, I have to hold my hands up and in surrender and say "send in Oprah".

Originally posted by Ushgarak
In that Israel still exists, that's probably what they think they've got out of it. That's a powerful argument for those living there.

Fair comment.

But the "Heavy handedness only fuels martyrdom" argument is surely a significant factor countering that argument to an extent...?

In any case... sod living there with all this going on constantly.

Well, your implication there is that if they didn't create the martyrdom there would not be the threat that they live under.

But that's rather a supposition. In their position, when confronted with the argument "Because of the military effort we have been making, we are still here and still alive," you might be able to come up with a theoretical situation where this was not so... but I sure as hell would not be willing to risk stopping the military effort in the hope it was true. Not when my life was on the line.

And that being the case, you can see why they get shirty with outsiders saying "Oh, why can't you all just embrace peace?" when it is not their existence that is going to end if it all goes wrong.

Very true. Idealogy is no bullet proof shield. For real.
And that is indeed the deepest investment a person could have.

I dont wish to give that impression.
I dont think for a minute that that'd happen, but it might disarm the propagandists recruiting on the Non-israeli side, and lessen one avenue for justifying attack, but Im aware of the Israeli situation with her enemies and no this wouldnt make them go away.

Also, the premise that Israel is just carpet bombing indiscriminately is erroneous, just more propaganda spread to make them look bad.

Israel has an extremely efficient intelligence capabilities, if they're bombing an apartment complex, it's because Hamas is using it as a weapons depot. Which works in Hamas' favor ultimately, because they spin it around and use the civilian deaths, the ones they ultimately cauesed to their own personal use.

Okay. Fair dos.
Well I wouldnt wanna be doing the scumbags work for them, so let me rephrase that in the interests of not wanting to accidentally do their bidding.
Not indiscriminately then... just sloppy maybe compared with intelligence lead ground attacks/raids.... without maybe so many civvy casualties.

(Acknowledged though that this is never gonna be entirely casualty free in a combatants-blended-in-to-the-public uniformless kind of war when bombing.)

If Israel rolled into Gaza full force, they'd be labeled as invaders trying to take land. Which Hamas would use as a call to rally Hizbullah in the North.

Kobyashi Maru.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Kobyashi Maru.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Kobyashi Maru.

Well said.