Master Crimzon
Baby Killer
Originally posted by backdoorman
Despite the constant warnings about potential aggressive military action? It was more than warnings. I'm not exactly Hamas' biggest cheerleader but you are being ridiculous if you say that the truce was honored by Israel, it simply wasn't and it wasn't honored by Hamas either. But as I said before, that is simply because neither side took it very seriously, it was at most an attempt by both sides to tone down the fighting a bit and regroup.
Correct. But I would like to inform you that Hamas broke the ceasefire first. Had they stopped firing rockets at Israel, I guarantee you we wouldn't have done anything to them.
Originally posted by backdoorman
Yes, you are right. It was perfectly magnanimous of you, it didn't directly kill anyone, it simply pushed Gaza into a humanitarian crisis.
It didn't push Gaza into a humanitarian crisis, but it worsened the living conditions. Non-lethal pressure, I say; it should have been enough for Hamas to understand the point. They aren't stupid; they knew a military strike by Israel was coming. They just didn't give a damn; they repeatedly displayed that they don't care what happens to civilians in Gaza.
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
This is just too good. It is the same on most western media outlets, when reporting on the "human" aspect of the conflict they will often show you one picture of a Palestinian woman kneeling on a pile of rubble crying with her arms raised to the sky over the death of her five young children as a result of Israeli attacks. On the next page you'll see an Israeli woman, somehow equally distraught, sitting in her living room damning Hamas for the mental damage they've caused her with their rocket missiles.[/QUOTE]
You don't think there are any crying mothers here? Do you know how many soldiers died protecting Israel ever since the beginning of the Israeli Palestinian conflict? To put it nicely, it's well over 700.
Also, should we be at fault for having more advanced alarm systems than they do? Also, remember what came first. The endless and provocative oppression of Sderot is what initiated this conflict in the first place, and its Hamas' responsibility. They are as much to blame as we are for letting that woman lose her five kids.
Are you aware of the fact that Israel has been sending out fliers and messages in order to inform civilians of impending bombings? You know what prevented them from escaping? Hamas. Hamas used fear and terror to keep them at bay; Hamas used them as human shields in order to target Israel's conscience and display themselves as the poor, oppressed minority and Israel as the big evil mean empire.
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
Terrible conditions to live under, absolutely. And I don`t demonize the Israelis, they are just going down, what I believe to be, a very misguided path.[/QUOTE]
Do you honestly think that a military response isn't justified under the conditions I described? I can't understand why anyone would think that. Sderot's been deprived of a real life for eight years; that's a real humanitarian crisis no one seems to give a **** about. Hamas refuses negotiations, acts fanatically and unreasonable, and continues to smuggle weaponry while provoking Israel endlessly.
I already said I agree that our attack may have been too hasty and too over-the-top; but all in all, I think it's a relatively justified attack. It's rare for an anti-war dude like myself to say this, too.
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
That's extremely stupid. It all "started" when the Ottoman rule ended in 1917, it was around then that the antagonism first began to take real shape.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the Sderot conflict. Now, look at that history and tell me that Israel should have done nothing militarily. We've been delaying this attack for years, YEARS, in hope of a peaceful resolution. It just didn't work out.
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
The West Bank has seen relative peace but at what cost? You cannot seriously say that the West Bank is truly under the control of Palestinians.[/QUOTE]
It is, mostly. Just because those Palestinians aren't fanatical nutjobs doesn't mean that they aren't really controlling this place. They are. They're just less militaristic and more reasonable than Hamas.
Also, even if Israel has a strong influence there- and that helps maintain peace- is that not a good thing?
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
Those are the same arguments the Arabs used 1947 against the Jews to justify a civil war. They were probably right, and you are probably right but I believe they will settle for less.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what portion of the Palestinians you're referring to. Yes- I believe the general populace, meaning most of the West Bank's and Gaza's inhabitants are willing to settle for a far more reasonable price. But Hamas? Oh-no. They keep the people of Gaza in check using intimidations and propaganda, enabling their ideology to be the only reigning one. And their ideology has repeatedly displayed complete lack of logic and reason. They WON'T settle for less than the entirety of Israel.
Maybe after this military strike, which should really end now, they'd be a little more reasonable and more willing to peacefully negotiate. Couple that with international interference, and I feel that there's a chance peace and liberty can be achieved. At least some sort of peace; it will definitely be an improvement over the current situation.
QUOTE=11460176]Originally posted by backdoorman
You may feel that way but personally, I can't help but feel this military action was not the best course Israel could have chosen. During the "ceasefire" they should have put a reasonable plan on the table, they chose not to, they waited till the "ceasefire" was over, waited for the ever-diligent Hamas rockets and put into effect the operation they had been planning for months. Now of course, it is absolutely and entirely Hamas - and indeed apparently all of Gaza's fault. [/QUOTE]
It's Hamas' fault. Gaza's? They elected them and they follow them. The problem is that Hamas' rockets are 'ever-diligent'; I've displayed in my little history lesson how they displayed a profound lack of rational thinking during the history of the Sderot bombings. They refuse to negotiate, they refuse to meet, they refuse to cave into pressure. They just go on and on and on and on...
Don't tell me they didn't know this war was coming. They did; they just don't care how many civilians die. They should get the heat alongside Israel.