Originally posted by Bardock42
I think we were talking about other Arab states. But you are right, I don't know if it's the official stance.
I also wouldn't be surprised if other Arab states might have populations more in favor of a one state solution.
Its fairly easy to support a conflict you will never have to be personally involved in. But ya, I missed that part about other nations, lol
Apparently...after all, I seem to have been right...it is bad to bomb UN buildings
http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2009/01/20091805410769377.html
Also bad, shooting at sheduled UN relief convoys
http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2009/01/2009181119551714.html
Gee, Israel doesn't win any "Not a ****ing dick" awards...do they.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes.Either Israels claims of their intelligence driven precision bombing against Hamas targets being acceptably accurate are in fact, wildy inaccurate...
Or...
Israel meant to hit a UN building.
And they killed 4 of their own soldiers the other day, thats what US military influence does for you. The Friendly fire champions.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Correct. But I would like to inform you that Hamas broke the ceasefire first. Had they stopped firing rockets at Israel, I guarantee you we wouldn't have done anything to them.
It didn't push Gaza into a humanitarian crisis, but it worsened the living conditions. Non-lethal pressure, I say; it should have been enough for Hamas to understand the point. They aren't stupid; they knew a military strike by Israel was coming. They just didn't give a damn; they repeatedly displayed that they don't care what happens to civilians in Gaza.
You don't think there are any crying mothers here? Do you know how many soldiers died protecting Israel ever since the beginning of the Israeli Palestinian conflict? To put it nicely, it's well over 700.
Also, should we be at fault for having more advanced alarm systems than they do? Also, remember what came first. The endless and provocative oppression of Sderot is what initiated this conflict in the first place, and its Hamas' responsibility. They are as much to blame as we are for letting that woman lose her five kids.
Are you aware of the fact that Israel has been sending out fliers and messages in order to inform civilians of impending bombings? You know what prevented them from escaping? Hamas. Hamas used fear and terror to keep them at bay; Hamas used them as human shields in order to target Israel's conscience and display themselves as the poor, oppressed minority and Israel as the big evil mean empire.
Do you honestly think that a military response isn't justified under the conditions I described? I can't understand why anyone would think that. Sderot's been deprived of a real life for eight years; that's a real humanitarian crisis no one seems to give a **** about. Hamas refuses negotiations, acts fanatically and unreasonable, and continues to smuggle weaponry while provoking Israel endlessly.I already said I agree that our attack may have been too hasty and too over-the-top; but all in all, I think it's a relatively justified attack. It's rare for an anti-war dude like myself to say this, too.
I'm talking about the Sderot conflict. Now, look at that history and tell me that Israel should have done nothing militarily. We've been delaying this attack for years, YEARS, in hope of a peaceful resolution. It just didn't work out.
It is, mostly. Just because those Palestinians aren't fanatical nutjobs doesn't mean that they aren't really controlling this place. They are. They're just less militaristic and more reasonable than Hamas.Also, even if Israel has a strong influence there- and that helps maintain peace- is that not a good thing?
Depends on what portion of the Palestinians you're referring to. Yes- I believe the general populace, meaning most of the West Bank's and Gaza's inhabitants are willing to settle for a far more reasonable price. But Hamas? Oh-no. They keep the people of Gaza in check using intimidations and propaganda, enabling their ideology to be the only reigning one. And their ideology has repeatedly displayed complete lack of logic and reason. They WON'T settle for less than the entirety of Israel.
Hamas' fault. Gaza's? They elected them and they follow them. The problem is that Hamas' rockets are 'ever-diligent'; I've displayed in my little history lesson how they displayed a profound lack of rational thinking during the history of the Sderot bombings. They refuse to negotiate, they refuse to meet, they refuse to cave into pressure. They just go on and on and on and on...Don't tell me they didn't know this war was coming. They did; they just don't care how many civilians die. They should get the heat alongside Israel.
Originally posted by backdoorman
I tried to look for information about that on the web but I couldn't find it (and I was surprised to see how incredibly little there was). I highly doubt that's true though, I think it was ignored in many ways by both sides from the start, despite their diplomatic rhetoric claiming otherwise.
I've also done some research on this, and yes, information is limited beyond belief. Don't doubt it's true; it is. We aren't as tenacious as Hamas; we'd take any opportunity at peace, aside from extremist right-wingers. And Israel is dominated by centrists at the moment.
Originally posted by backdoorman
Well it was denominated a humanitarian crisis by the UN, not an objective judge on the matter but a highly respected one.
Exactly. The UN isn't infallible and isn't 100% right on everything. Also, it should be noted that the only country in the world that really likes us is the U.S. As large as their influence is, it doesn't compare to the amount of countries who hate us.
Originally posted by backdoorman
I've said already that Israel has indeed suffered. However if you are going to put their suffering in the last ten years on a par with that of the Palestinians' you'll look like more of a fool than you really are.
There wasn't any military action against the Palestinians for a damn long time. Yeah, they suffered, but they didn't have rockets dropped on them due to an aggressive force. The reason for their suffering it just as much due to internal struggle as it is due to Israel.
Originally posted by backdoorman
No, you shouldn't. That endless and provocative oppression of Sderot was not the start of anything, stop talking about the current 'conflict' as something that begun last year, as though things had been resolved before. This is just the latest development of the half a century crap that's been happening in the region.
Yeah, that's true. And let me tell you this: Israel has been, traditionally, far more aggressive and 'black-and-white'-ish throughout history. Palestinians were often regarded as second-class citizens who don't deserve a country of their own; and that attitude is still maintained by certain individuals who keep us from potentially having peace.
Problem is, Israel recently, shall we say, 'repented' for all of those sins. Our government understood that the Palestinians can't be bullied into submission; they have to get increasing rights and a country of their own. In an extremely controversial move, Israelis were pulled out of Arab settlements; many of them had to be beaten and forcibly removed from their homes. It doesn't matter to me, personally, because they were right-winger morons obsessed with the bible and past traditions, with no acknowledgment of the Palestinians' right to liberty.
Then we gave them Gaza and the West Bank. Now, West Bank people are generally happy, despite what you're saying about them. That somehow, Arabs can't be happy here! Anyways, Gaza's fired rockets since day one; you know why? Because we gave them a ****ing country. Now, doesn't it say something about their general tone of reason when they exploit our first move towards a Palestinians country by launching an offensive at us?
We've taken absolutely no military action for the course of eight years, while they bombed Sderot into hell. Like I said, depriving its citizens of a life and damaging them permanently. We've tried everything, from diplomacy to a relatively peaceful military blockade. They didn't want to talk about anything other than getting the entirety of Israel.
Eventually, we had to launch an offensive.
Originally posted by backdoorman
Oh yes I am aware (as it has become every North American news channel's favorite new phrase) and that's crap, that's not the reason they aren't escaping. Those fliers are almost useless and it's not because of Hamas not allowing people to escape, it's the fact that they have nowhere to go to. You should listen on the news to what the actual Gazans say.
'Gazans' are controlled by Hamas, don't you think? I agree that our solution isn't perfect and our attack was somewhat mismanaged, but they certainly have somewhere to run to.
It's Hamas' responsibility.
Originally posted by backdoorman
I am sure all those people with post dramatic stress disorder have been damaged for life and all, but no, I think given to Israel's general unfairness towards the Palestinians, they don't deserve to call their bombings of Gaza justified.
Israel's general unfairness towards the Palestinians? Like I said, get your facts straight. The people of the West Bank are relatively happy. Despite being called for billions for talks, Hamas simply refuses every time; instead, they increase the potency of their offensive. Despite being threatened with military action plenty of times.
So, yes. I think under these certain circumstances, our bombings were relatively justified.
Originally posted by backdoorman
I have done so and I do stand by what I said. And you really, really shouldn't look at the Sderot thing as an isolated incident. You have to look at it in the proper context of the last sixty years.
I do. You're the one treating the Israel-Palestine situation like it was 15 years ago. Things are different now.
Originally posted by backdoorman
It would be if Israel was fair and if it would still allow them to retain their autonomy and sovereignty.
They do. And aren't they happy? So... what's the problem?
Originally posted by backdoorman
Don't say that until you offer them a fair deal and hear what they say. I really believe they will settle for becoming an Israeli Defence Forces-free nation with the borders proposed by the 1947 UN plan.
Well, we've offered them expansions in territory. This far? I don't know. But they simply refuse to talk.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes.Either Israels claims of their intelligence driven precision bombing against Hamas targets being acceptably accurate are in fact, wildy inaccurate...
Or...
Israel meant to hit a UN building.
Wouldn't be the 1st time they did it deliberately.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/587940/israel_bomb_hits_un_base_in_s_lebanon/index.html
It was even a one of...It was a sustained attack with 21 bombs hitting the UN compound
Oh for heaven's sake... of COURSE they meant to hit that UN building. They thought they were under fire from it! And it may well be TRUE that they were under fire from it! Why are people so prejudicial about issues where you are in absolutely no command of the facts of the matter whatsoever? People are so fast to condemn Israel on such hazy intel- it's extremely troubling.
And in dense urban combat, friendly fire casualties are inevitable. That's just war- as is relief convoys being hit.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh for heaven's sake... of COURSE thry meant to hit that UN building. They thought they were under fire from it! And it may well be TRUER that they were under fire from it! Why are people so prejudicial about issues where you are in absolutely no command of the facts of the matter whatsoever? People are so fast to condemn Israel on such hazy intel- it's extremely troubling.And in dense urban combat, friendly fire casualties are inevitable. That's just war- as is relief convoys being hit.
I agree with all this pretty much.
It is terrible that it happened, but I will reserve calling them "bloodthirsty baby killers" or something of the sort because of this.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh for heaven's sake... of COURSE they meant to hit that UN building. They thought they were under fire from it! And it may well be TRUE that they were under fire from it! Why are people so prejudicial about issues where you are in absolutely no command of the facts of the matter whatsoever? People are so fast to condemn Israel on such hazy intel- it's extremely troubling.And in dense urban combat, friendly fire casualties are inevitable. That's just war- as is relief convoys being hit.
I watched the interview with the Israeli defence minister and he said they've done it to UN facilities before and they'd do it again if they deemed they had to.
It's a bit hard to relate what they claim when there is photographs of children's arms sticking out of the rubble though.
Even though, a lot of the time, i feel that some of these things are staged by Hamas as propaganda using the bodies of people who've had died elsewhere and in other circumstances.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh for heaven's sake... of COURSE they meant to hit that UN building. They thought they were under fire from it! And it may well be TRUE that they were under fire from it! Why are people so prejudicial about issues where you are in absolutely no command of the facts of the matter whatsoever? People are so fast to condemn Israel on such hazy intel- it's extremely troubling.And in dense urban combat, friendly fire casualties are inevitable. That's just war- as is relief convoys being hit.
While this mostly sounds like sense to me,
I would ask with genuine curiosity: Doesn't "dense urban combat" imply that both parties are in that same urban area..?
Was Dresden or London in the war "dense urban combat" or a bombardment...? Was 2003's "Shock and Awe"..?
Where do we draw the line ...for the purposes of this discussion...?
'Cause the ranges these missiles are operating on seem a bit "long range bombardment" catagory to me.