Originally posted by No End N Site😂 Seriously dude?
She is more powerful than the version of Bison that took them all on at once. She's only ever lost to Bison and that was when he was amped or near full power.
Is it cool on the streets to underestimate plot established boss level characters, now?
I don't think it means she can solo them, but like I said if you think she can then cool. It is not like I have the time and desire to convince you otherwise.
Originally posted by No End N Site
That's fine. You may disagree. I put Dhalsim above Ryu cuz Dhalsim he is implied to be above the fray. He has a mastery of the mystic arts and is not a driven fighter because he has found enlightenment. In all honesty, he's at the level Ryu want's to be at.
Dhalsim's path is not that of a Warrior path within the same case as Ryu. Although he has reached enlightment, that does not make him stronger as a fighter then Ryu. Not to mention, the more important value, we have almost little to no references of who he has contended against and fought.
Being enlightened or a great fighter are two completely different things here.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Rose: "You are like me, aren't you? You can see things others cannot..."Ryu: "I never tire of watching you in action. Your moves are inspiring."
Gouken: "Your heart is pure and your path righteous."
Rose is stronger than current Ryu. Ryu has gotten stronger, but Ryu in SFIII hasn't gotten to a level where he can beat the SFII versions of himself, Ken, Guile, Cammy, and Chun Li at the same time. SFIII Ryu can't beat SFII Bison. Rose can, and we know this because she beat SFA2 Bison. A stronger version of Bison SFIII Ryu can not beat.
Also, SFA1 is not canon and Ryu, by the time of 3S would not have surpassed any version of Bison. And to consider it, I would need facts and substantial evidence.
Rose was stronger then Ryu during the Alpha Series. Remember one thing, "had" Ryu gone Satsui-No-Hadou during the Alpha Series, he would've rivaled Gouki during that time frame, hence why Gouki wanted Ryu to tap into that power so he could have a worthy fight. However we know that by the time SFIII rolls around, Ryu has surpassed that peak of what Satsui-No-Hadou would've taken him back in Alpha.
More evidence to prove prove this? Back during 2nd Impact Ryu show cases to Gouki with the official translations from the cannon guide
"For I......For I will show you that which surpasses satsui no hadou!"
The guide not only says that Ryu tells Gouki that SnH is surpassable as if it's just a hypothetical speech; he states that it is and he'll prove it. Ryu would have that kind of stance on the matter only if he'd know he can do it and he would do it.
Capcom Japan then goes even more into this statement to how Ryu is now superior in SFIII without resorting to SNH by stating that Ryu's moves consists of moves that overwhelm purely SnH-based ones, particularly the Denjin hadouken because it involves tapping into SnH for an extremely brief interval then snapping back out of it and being granted much greater power in the process than SnH could alone.
Gouki also affirms to him that during 2I he's finally (since they last battled in Z2) in the neighborhood of the level he was with SnH briefly taking him over to scar Sagat, so Gouki understands he's at least that powerful again, though without SnH tempting him.
This is why their is no way Rose is going to be above Ryu in his III form. The only ones who would stand a chance against Ryu by this time are the super elites, and those equal to him in abilities. SFIII Ryu is a Ryu who would've been capable of defeating his SNH Ryu counterpart and the Alpha Series Gouki (Not Current SFIII Gouki). This would definitely allow Ryu to be able to contend and beat Alpha Dictator Pre-A3 version mind you.
So again, I don't see how either Gen, Rose, or Dhalsim are above Ryu when he's reached such a level during SF3.
Originally posted by No End N Site
And About Gen. I seriously doubt 3S Ryu is beatin this dude.
Given the fact that he can go toe to toe with normal Akuma and Ryu can not is enough evidence for me.And as for Oni, sorry to say it so bluntly but what they said on SRK is clearly wrong. Vasili is a cool guy who I look to often, but in this case, he is very wrong. Word Of God>>>>>>>>SRK, for me.[b]Capcom
has stated...Official blog
http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/04/12_3082.htmlTranslation
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27070217&postcount=9770[/b]
Actually, I've seen this before, and again, let me interpret this as much as possible, because you guys are misinterpreting this entire cascade with Oni-Gouki. First that translation that you mentioned of the "most powerful" actually pertains to the in-game/cpu wise of him, and not the storyline of SF itself.
Considering that Oni Gouki in his form removes completely from what Capcom Japan has made of Gouki's true purpose within the entire SF storyline all the way to SFIII.
"Oni is not the incarnation of SnH. He's the incarnation of Gouki being stripped down to the final fragments of his own will in an unwilling exchange for the nearly-total will of the "demon" he had allowed to keep within him ever since he unleashed his first-ever SGS. The demon is really a fierce god, or onigami/kishin (Oni frequently calls himself by the second of these two romanizations). The onigami itself can exist with or without SnH; it's completely independent of any particular power, and just wants to feed off of power in general, as long as that power brings carnage with it.
Gouki is Oni's vessel only once Oni is allowed to exist, and only a reluctant vessel at that. Oni is caught in between Gouki's will to retain his former bodily shape, and the onigami's will wanting to ravagingly deform it, hence Oni looking bulkier than Gouki would be.
SnH is no ultimate power, and Oni doesn't utilize SnH alone. The reason Oni doesn't end up stronger than Shin Gouki (meaning Gouki not holding back any of his power) is because Oni ends up being neither completely devoid of a human being nor the total essence of a fierce god. Both Gouki's (just barely) and the onigami's clashing wills are present in the being known as Oni, and as such neither one can fully exploit and abuse the full power acquired by the other. This is why Oni's feat in his ending doesn't compare with what Gouki does as far back as Zero 2.
To put it another way, Shin Gouki retains his full murderous humanity and the onigami retains its back seat and watches, only to take over when and if Gouki fails, while Oni is Gouki failed, onigami taking over, and still Gouki won't let it do so anyway, no matter how feeble his will now is."
Hence why SFIII Shin Gouki>>>>>>Oni. Shin Gouki is a Gouki who has complete control of all of his powers, while Oni is unstable because he can no longer focus or channel his energy with proper control.
This is why his powers are literally exploding violently everywhere to portray this effect. Where as Shin Gouki can achieve this same effect if he wanted too, but without resorting to wasted energy.
Originally posted by No End N SiteThe scene at 00:53 really amazes me since the first time I saw it. Even before SFIV I always felt Chun was pretty damn powerful but it's in this clip that we can truly see the beast she is while not restricted by game mechanics. To be honest, that video even makes me ask how does she compare to Ryu and Ken in terms of raw power, because at least by feats she has them beat for sure.
The C.Viper after math trailer. It takes place shortly after SFII. They all jump Bison and it shows Bison, even in SFII, is still boss status.startin at 0:40 I don't see SFIII Ryu touchin this.
And Ryu Vs Akuma, it wasn't really a draw. Akuma was just testin'im. I do agree that Ryu is past Alpha Akuma by the time of SFIII, in fact, this is all but stated. However, I don't see him takin'em all on at once. I don't even think he'd beat Chun and Guile's SFII versions at once. Same for Akuma, weirdly enough. Thanks to SFIV's established canon, Alpha Akuma wouldn't beat'im all either.
The gap between II and III is about 6 years at the most, thanks to the retcon of SFIII characters being in IV, unchanged.
Originally posted by No End N SiteAkuma in Alpha was comparable IMO. Ryu just isn't as destructive as that. It would be nice to see what his most powerful version can do besides lift a boulder. Probably never will show much though.
The C.Viper after math trailer. It takes place shortly after SFII. They all jump Bison and it shows Bison, even in SFII, is still boss status.startin at 0:40 I don't see SFIII Ryu touchin this.
And Ryu Vs Akuma, it wasn't really a draw. Akuma was just testin'im. I do agree that Ryu is past Alpha Akuma by the time of SFIII, in fact, this is all but stated. However, I don't see him takin'em all on at once. I don't even think he'd beat Chun and Guile's SFII versions at once. Same for Akuma, weirdly enough. Thanks to SFIV's established canon, Alpha Akuma wouldn't beat'im all either.
The gap between II and III is about 6 years at the most, thanks to the retcon of SFIII characters being in IV, unchanged.
Originally posted by JustFrame
Dhalsim's path is not that of a Warrior path within the same case as Ryu. Although he has reached enlightment, that does not make him stronger as a fighter then Ryu. Not to mention, the more important value, we have almost little to no references of who he has contended against and fought.Being enlightened or a great fighter are two completely different things here.
Rose was stronger then Ryu during the Alpha Series. Remember one thing, "had" Ryu gone Satsui-No-Hadou during the Alpha Series, he would've rivaled Gouki during that time frame, hence why Gouki wanted Ryu to tap into that power so he could have a worthy fight. However we know that by the time SFIII rolls around, Ryu has surpassed that peak of what Satsui-No-Hadou would've taken him back in Alpha. More evidence to prove prove this? Back during 2nd Impact Ryu show cases to Gouki with the official translations from the cannon guide."For I......For I will show you that which surpasses satsui no hadou!" The guide not only says that Ryu tells Gouki that SnH is surpassable as if it's just a hypothetical speech; he states that it is and he'll prove it. Ryu would have that kind of stance on the matter only if he'd know he can do it and he would do it. Capcom Japan then goes even more into this statement to how Ryu is now superior in SFIII without resorting to SNH by stating that Ryu's moves consists of moves that overwhelm purely SnH-based ones, particularly the Denjin hadouken because it involves tapping into SnH for an extremely brief interval then snapping back out of it and being granted much greater power in the process than SnH could alone.
Gouki also affirms to him that during 2I he's finally (since they last battled in Z2) in the neighborhood of the level he was with SnH briefly taking him over to scar Sagat, so Gouki understands he's at least that powerful again, though without SnH tempting him.This is why their is no way Rose is going to be above Ryu in his III form. The only ones who would stand a chance against Ryu by this time are the super elites, and those equal to him in abilities. SFIII Ryu is a Ryu who would've been capable of defeating his SNH Ryu counterpart and the Alpha Series Gouki (Not Current SFIII Gouki). This would definitely allow Ryu to be able to contend and beat Alpha Dictator Pre-A3 version mind you.
So again, I don't see how either Gen, Rose, or Dhalsim are above Ryu when he's reached such a level during SF3.
Actually, I've seen this before, and again, let me interpret this as much as possible, because you guys are misinterpreting this entire cascade with Oni-Gouki. First that translation that you mentioned of the "most powerful" actually pertains to the in-game/cpu wise of him, and not the storyline of SF itself.
Considering that Oni Gouki in his form removes completely from what Capcom Japan has made of Gouki's true purpose within the entire SF storyline all the way to SFIII.
"Oni is not the incarnation of SnH. He's the incarnation of Gouki being stripped down to the final fragments of his own will in an unwilling exchange for the nearly-total will of the "demon" he had allowed to keep within him ever since he unleashed his first-ever SGS. The demon is really a fierce god, or onigami/kishin (Oni frequently calls himself by the second of these two romanizations). The onigami itself can exist with or without SnH; it's completely independent of any particular power, and just wants to feed off of power in general, as long as that power brings carnage with it.
Gouki is Oni's vessel only once Oni is allowed to exist, and only a reluctant vessel at that. Oni is caught in between Gouki's will to retain his former bodily shape, and the onigami's will wanting to ravagingly deform it, hence Oni looking bulkier than Gouki would be.
SnH is no ultimate power, and Oni doesn't utilize SnH alone. The reason Oni doesn't end up stronger than Shin Gouki (meaning Gouki not holding back any of his power) is because Oni ends up being neither completely devoid of a human being nor the total essence of a fierce god. Both Gouki's (just barely) and the onigami's clashing wills are present in the being known as Oni, and as such neither one can fully exploit and abuse the full power acquired by the other. This is why Oni's feat in his ending doesn't compare with what Gouki does as far back as Zero 2.
To put it another way, Shin Gouki retains his full murderous humanity and the onigami retains its back seat and watches, only to take over when and if Gouki fails, while Oni is Gouki failed, onigami taking over, and still Gouki won't let it do so anyway, no matter how feeble his will now is."
Hence why SFIII Shin Gouki>>>>>>Oni. Shin Gouki is a Gouki who has complete control of all of his powers, while Oni is unstable because he can no longer focus or channel his energy with proper control.
This is why his powers are literally exploding violently everywhere to portray this effect. Where as Shin Gouki can achieve this same effect if he wanted too, but without resorting to wasted energy.
It does not matter what Dhalsim's path is, to me. He exudes the aura of an enlightened monk. He is always the 1st to sense evil and always operates above and away from the rest of the cast. This leads me to believe that he is on a level above the average SF.
Well I see things differently. Being enlightened and a great fighter are not all that different in the world of SF, since Ryu, who is a great fighter, aspires to have a demeanor like that of Dhalsim, who is also like that of his own master, Gouken.
I agree with Ryu surpassin Alpha Akuma. And I am one never lets anyone forget it, in a Ryu VS thread. I've even posted scans of Capcom makin this statement.
However, I would just point out that Evil Ryu in SFA would rival Normal Akuma. Not Shin. He wouldn't match Shin Akuma unless he gave in completely and as seen in his story mode, that would take time since he had to have several key battles to decide to give in completely to the point where there is no turnin back. Even in SFIII, there isn't a showin, or piece of story detail that would allow Ryu to defeat any version of Bison. Ryu gangs up on Bison and then, in just a few years, be capable of beatin a Bison twice as powerful as the one he needed the help of 4 other people, before?
I'm just gonna say it, Normal Alpha Akuma can not beat Rose. He had to use an SGS on SFII Bison, he cranked out his greatest move on the weakest version of Bison. Rose, years before, solos Alpha Bison, a stronger version than Akuma fought. The common logic in makin my decision doesn't get any clearer, to me. It makes me sad that everyone is down playin Rose like this. She's a great character. 🙁
You have a point on Gen, tho. I forget that with his illness, he wouldn't have gotten stronger in SFIII and in all honesty, would've been weaker. Ryu would defeat Gen and it probably wouldn't be the hardest battle Ryu's ever faced. That said, I could be wrong; given what his fate may be after SSFIV.
And as far as Oni goes, I'm sorry, man. But as cool and as deep as what you said sounds. Nothin you can say disproves a very clear cut, decisive and simple statement made by Capcom...unless o'course, you can find another official statement by Capcom contradictin the claims of the creators.
He even has quotes that attest to the fact that he is the strongest form of Akuma.
Oni to Akuma in Oni's pre fight boss fight intro"Fool. I've evolved beyond you."
Oni to Akuma, after defeating Akuma"Now you know what a real god is."
Akuma to Oni, after defeating OniMy fists can destroy even the gods!
Even Evil Ryu sees Oni as stronger, let's compare quotes.
He says to Akuma,
Your spirit dies here, old one. By my fist!
He says to Oni,
So, this is it. The final battle shall be waged between demons!... Your defeat shall make my power grow even stronger!
Even Bison states,
Never have I witnessed such power. I'll admit that I'm intrigued.
You add all this to official statements and the fact that Oni is the boss Above Shin Akuma and it's pretty clear who the strongest is. This is another thing I think I should remind you of. Shin Akuma is still in SSFIV:AE and is below both Evil Ryu and Oni. Oni is the true boss of that game.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Akuma in Alpha was comparable IMO. Ryu just isn't as destructive as that. It would be nice to see what his most powerful version can do besides lift a boulder. Probably never will show much though.
Thank you C, that is my point. Akuma in Alpha is 'comparable' to THAT Bison. Bison in Alpha is a ABOVE THAT Bison.
I think we may see Ryu display some high level showings, if and when he finally fights Akuma, once and for all.
Originally posted by No End N Site
It does not matter what Dhalsim's path is, to me. He exudes the aura of a an enlightened monk. He is always the 1st to sense evil and always operates above and away from the rest of the cast. This leads me to believe that he is on a level above the average SF.Well I see things differently. Being enlightened and a great fighter are not all that different in the world of SF, since Ryu, who is a great fighter, aspires to have a demeanor like that of Dhalsim, who is also like that of his own master, Gouken.
Being an elighten Monk doesn't put him on a level that pushes him above Ryu. Just because he's spiritually on a higher place then Ryu per say, does not mean that he's a more formidable fighter, otherwise why wasn't Dictator looking for Sim's body to take over, or that the only one to give Gouki his dream match is basically Ryu.
Dhalsim is a fighter, however he isn't a fighter looking to become more powerful in the same mannerism that we are seeing Ryu taking a step towards.
Just simply being enlightened and having the capability to be able to sense evil prior to others does not put him on a fighter level that all of a sudden pushes him above someone like Ryu.
Originally posted by No End N Site
~pertaining to Ryu vs Gouki in the Alpha Series and Alpha Bison
SnH Ryu is basically a Ryu who has given into SnH completely. Their is little to no restrictions here. Within SnH Ryu's ending for a "what if" he would've been powerful enough have killed and beaten Gouki, which is shown in his what if ending had he'd gone Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu. Watch that ending again, it's not regular Gouki, but Shin Gouki who confronts Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu and loses. Again, Gouki is only holding back against norm. Ryu in Alpha is because Gouki wants him to unleash his full potential (Meaning SnH) then only then will he have the true fight that he wants in which he can display his full capability.
SnH Ryu during Alpha would've been very capable of fighting Shin Gouki at this time, because he would've been rivaled him. The A3 What if Storyline showcases this, and displays how powerful SnH Ryu would've been at that time period.
Here is the direct "What If" Ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjzdk_LG1E0
SFIII Ryu is indeed powerful enough at this point to be equal to his SnH version who would've been capable of defeating an Alpha Gouki at that point and time. Obviously of course, Gouki during SFIII has now surpassed this level.
So the idea and though of a SFIII Ryu being capable of defeating Alpha Dictator prior to his Super Elite Mode Alpha 3 version is very possible if his what if storyline shows him even overthrowing a Shin Gouki.
Again, its not like the tier placements that Vasili made for putting Ryu above the characters you mentioned doesn't make sense, when he and a few others have basically done the most homework and the most Capcom Japanese Translations of the Canon Guide/interviews/Game Dialogues to English.
I'm not saying they are right all the time (The Gouken was clone idea was absurd imo by Vasili), however Ryu being above Rose, Gen, and Dhalsim, I can very easily agree with that.
Originally posted by No End N Site
~Pertaining to Oni~
He is not the strongest form of Gouki. Again that translations isn't correct at all, and pertains to his strength within the game mechanics "as the strongest".
Here is the true official Oni Profile...
http://www.capcom.co.jp/sf4/oni.html#character_btn
Here is the Complete Translation from a japanese translator (remember, not perfect english, but you'll get the idea)...
Kyouoshiki Oni; (Mentally Possessed) Oni
Onigami to Pierce the Heavens
The having continued consequence of being exposed to "satsui no hadou", Gouki's appearance transfigured to one completely not of a person. Already now for the flesh and sentiment as a human being almost unremaining, with just a consciousness toward pure-like combat is retaining his shape. For the one who stood before that, to fight entirely the limit of desperate effort maybe, only the option of giving up to die perhaps is not being granted.
Name: Kyouoshiki Oni
Represented nation: unknown
Birthday: unknown
Height: unknown
Weight: unknown
BWH sizes: unknown
Blood type: unknown
Likes: unknown
Dislikes: unknown
Special skill: unknown
Fighting style: none
Ultras include the tenchi soukaigen and the meido gou hadou which has two alternate forms: the messatsu gou zankuu and the messatsu goutenha, and new sure-kill techniques include the gourai hadouken (the only "gou" matching with Goutetsu's name, all others are the same as in Gouki's), the zankuu hadoushou, the akaboshi jiraiken, and the rakan dantoujin. And because it was previously asked and now answerable, his uppercut which looks like a shin shoryuken is named the gou shoryuken.
Even within another interview in which Seth Killian describes Oni as a Gouki within his final "demon" form (notice how he clearly states Demon Form which makes sense considering his name literally means Mentally Possessed).
This again, goes back to what is being noted. Gouki speaks of Oni as is because its Gouki losing his entire will or close to it, and thus Onigami is able to almost completely take over and consume him. Hence why you see Oni speaking in the way that he does. Remember that every time Gouki unleashes SGS he has a chance to fall into the gap of what would turn him into Oni, however when SFIII rolls around, we know for a fact this is not the case.
All of what Oni is what would only happen if Gouki fails at his true purpose of what he's pursuing, much in the same case for a situation to what Ryu would've if he completely succumbed to Satsui-No-Hadou.
That's why Oni is specifically shown again displaying and dispersing his energy with complete and utter instability. Where as Shin Gouki would be capable of all of those abilities without losing control of his energy or abilities is because he is a perfect blend without lack of true thought.
The other reason why Oni is considered weaker then his Z2 version is not just simply because of instability, but also his feat. It's not even as impressive as what holding back Gouki did to his island. Making an already unstable volcano explode while using a significant amount of force in order to do so isn't as impressive as an already weakened Gouki but yet still holding back sinking an island with a strike to the ground.
Oni's ending again reflects what I've mentioned.
Put the two together and it makes perfect sense. Oni-Gouki in his form is nearly consumed by Onigami and can no longer focus his powers while just violently throwing them out because his human will is nearly gone at this point. Where as Shin Gouki at 100% is fully capable of his powers but then has the ability to fully channel his abilities at will.
Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
He would be less than an ant. And going ONI wouldn't help him at all. You wouldn't even need the top 5. Anakaris or huitzil would solo the sf verse, and they're just a run of the mill darkstalker and a dumb robot. Ingrid's about the only character to stand a chance.
What's Ingrid have going for her that suggests she's Darkstalker powerful?
http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Ingrid
This wiki makes her look "Stronger than Bison, maybe" powerful at most.
Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
She's FTl, has time travel, capable of blocking attacks from SFs with just her finger, vast psychic powers, capable of wielding the energy of stars, just a piece of her power is equal to a world supply of psycho power and much more.
Energy of the stars, and faster than light? I don't remember anything about stars or her speed from Alpha 3 Max, although all of that other stuff sounds about right.. Rose couldn't read her future, and Ingrid knew all about Rose and Ryu, she cured dark Ryu just by fighting him, went to the future.. I remember Bison was using a machine to power himself up with psycho power, too, yet she beat him pretty easily...
Ingrid
Also, there is a possibility that Ingrid can travel through time, as she mentions heading to the year 205X and seeing that Ryu has somehow become a monk. It is also safe to say that she is from the future and possibly might be related to Ryu, but her face appearance is somewhat similar to Juri,it is possible that she is related to both of them
*cough* JapanXKorean steamy action?