Rot Bane vs Rots Yoda

Originally posted by Tavern
There are two interpretations you can accept:

A. The Jedi Masters were instructed to miss so that the meaning behind the demonstration would truly sink into the younglings' minds.

B. The Jedi Masters were instructed to try their hardest to hit him, and were not able to adapt to Yoda's "slow and steady tread." Neither scenario is especially impressive on Yoda's part.

I'm going to address this because you're taking the level of fanboyish stupidity to excess.

A. Instructed to miss? That'd mean the demonstration is worthless. IT says they're attacking him

B. How did this make sense in even your brain? Yoda is walking forward, they're attacking him and he's dodging them as he goes.

I was going to respond to your original rebuttal, but frankly there's no point. You make all the mistakes in your later posts that you did there.

And given Depa's speed is on par with Mace

and enough to butcher an entire ship's crew in an incredibly short time...

And then there's Yoda's 'dodge the three masters faster than the eye can see' feat.

On second thought, since I'm sure you won't do it, I'll post it for you:

Three members of the council - Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all- had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

I don't, however, know that they are actually using lightsabers.

Unlike Bane, Yoda didn't need orbalisks to save him.

See? I can belittle things, too.

And I'm gonna wager an entire planetary army of droids,

[plus a hailfire is a lot,

The 'same thing?' Bane turned the drexl into a 'charred hulk.'

Palpatine's turned the larger Sith Wyrm to standing dust.

Unless you have proof Bane's force lightning increased in power and potency, then I'd advise you drop the point.

Originally posted by Faunus
I was going to respond to your original rebuttal, but frankly there's no point. You make all the mistakes in your later posts that you did there.

Prove it.

When does he fight "an [b]entire planetary army of droids"?

Can you source/link/provide the passage?

And he turned its three riders to ash.

The wyrm was not larger.

Are you really going to argue that with a decade of relative isolation, the acquisition of two ancient Holocrons, and the additional dark side power afforded to him by the orbalisks, Bane isn't more powerful in RoT than he was in PoD? [/B]

I believe it was you who once stressed the difference between power as a whole and potency in individual techniques. Did I say Bane hadn't gotten more powerful? I'm asking for evidence his force lightning as a whole would be so much stronger as for Exodus's argument.

I got to know Faunus, was that passage in Shadow Hunter?

Yeah, I do have proof, given Raskta dealt what would've been a mortal wound in the opening SECONDS of the fight and they're dealing numerous blows to his body throughout.

Bane just had to focus on his head, how would he handle the entire body?

No one ****ing cares, because it's irrelevant. This is where you let your bias show, LS. You try desperately to belittle everything about Bane or everything he's done, because you simply can't stand the character. You do the same thing with ancient Jedi and Sith. I wouldn't care if you were simply analyzing them, but when you actually try and debate with me with that sort of mentality, you come across as an ass.

When? In fact, at his best, at the fight of his life? He is SEEN moving by Johun Othone and Valenthyne Farfalla.

And when he duels the three Jedi at once while Worror lay "crumpled" in a corner - when they weren't being empowered, and had to try and hold him off while the Ithorian recovered - he was "slowly pushing them back" single-handedly. Even with it, the best they could manage was to hold their ground.

And 'defeated Kas'im?' You mean when he was totally outmatched in their saber fight and had to use trickery to win? You mean when Kas'im crushed him with Jar'Kai? THAT fight?

His defense is limited to his head, which Yoda is capable of attacking

Yoda annihilated an army on his own,

he moved faster than Depa Billaba and two other Jedi Masters could perceive,

a far cry from Bane who was seen moving by Valenthyne Farfalla when Bane was charging him with intent to kill

Then [Farfalla], too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.

and Yoda was only giving a mild demonstration at that point!

Nice try.

He's the equal with the Force of someone more powerful than Bane, he's got far more experience, he defeated, on Vjun, while distracted, Count Dooku while Dooku was boosted in power.

He's strong enough to lift a gigantic gun in a gigantic crate on his back with no strain for a damn long time

I've seen that particular page myself, so I know it happened, but go ahead and prove that Yoda carried the gun for "a damn long time." It also was definitely not the size of a house, at least not a big one. Maybe Yoda's hut on Dagobah.

so Bane's physical strength? Not a factor.

his agility and speed are unlike anything Bane has encountered before and Yoda is smart enough to process he'll need to go for the head and guess what?

He's fast, good and quick enough to get to it,

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses.

Granted, Yoda > Raskta as a swordsman on account of his ridiculously superior power in the Force, but he lacks the battle meditation, the consistency (he needs to keep jumping five feet to actually try and do something, while Raskta doesn't), and later on, the two other people at his back.

so stop acting like Bane has a guaranteed win here because Bane needs to *GASP* HIT YODA! And how is he gonna do that, now?

@EH: Yes, it was from Shadow Hunter. Just CTRL+F "Depa Billaba" on the site.

Yeah, except Yoda is used to using absolute precision on single, small targets,

and fast and skilled enough to leap up and take Bane's head off before he can recover from a missed swing, or find a gap in Bane's guard by leaping up and stabbing through Bane's skull.

Stop ignoring Yoda's skill and speed and assuming Bane can infallibly block everything. What exactly will Bane do if Yoda leaps behind him,

leaps up and slashes,

when he moves too fast for Bane to track?

Originally posted by Faunus
[B]Now you're entering the realm of speculative bullshit. Would Bane have sprinted straight at Raskta with the intent of trampling her - which he would've done, had she not had the assistance of Worror's battle meditation - if he knew that a single stroke to his abdomen would bisect him? No. So it's not relevant.

Maybe it's just me here, but Raskta is continuously presented-with BM at least, as being faster than Bane, given she's moving around him constantly and he's giving ground until he apparently figures out what theyr'e doing, breaks off and runs for Worror.

And a six foot-tall Yoda wouldn't be agile.

No one ****ing cares, because it's irrelevant. This is where you let your bias show, LS. You try desperately to belittle everything about Bane or everything he's done, because you simply can't stand the character. You do the same thing with ancient Jedi and Sith. I wouldn't care if you were simply analyzing them, but when you actually try and debate with me with that sort of mentality, you come across as an ass.

You want me to go strictly analyzing them? You know, something about being told to kill myself or being constantly insulted by Nai, Janus and Traya and just dealing with Nebaris has killed any impartiality I formerly had to the Ancients and to Bane. Is Bane impressive? Yes, he is. do I think he can take Yoda? No, I don't and Exodus and Lethal Rogue's arguing on the other end are being nothing short of embarrassing in their argument. Also, frankly, your habit of, whenever I get like this, focusing on endlessly nitpicking and attacking no matter WHAT I say while utterly ignoring any valid points or the other side isn't endearing, because you did the exact same thing when I was arguing with Advent the one time. Just say 'calm down, LS' because you're being just as bad.

Thanks to the battle meditation. Farfalla survives the initial charge only because his abilities are amplified by the battle meditation.

And when he duels the three Jedi at once while Worror lay "crumpled" in a corner - when they weren't being empowered, and had to try and hold him off while the Ithorian recovered - he was "slowly pushing them back" single-handedly. Even with it, the best they could manage was to hold their ground.

Are you intentionally trying to shade the truth, LS? Bane was dominating Kas'im before Jar'Kai - a style that was completely alien to him at the time - was brought into play.

Let's get this straight. The only part of his body that Bane has to defend is his head. Assuming Yoda manages to magically force him into a defensive position, Bane can devote all of his resources to protecting that one part of his body; his orbalisk-bound limbs, the Force, and, oh yeah, his lightsaber. It's not like he's rooted in one spot, unarmed, with Yoda leaping up and down taking swipes at his head, which is exactly what you make it seem like it is.

Bane destroyed "legions" of technobeasts.

You're lying. And since I provided the passage, everyone else can tell.

I've trashed this three times.

Then [Farfalla], too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.

Actually, he was slashed twice by Dooku when he was "distracted," and even when he finally devoted himself fully to defeating the Count, he managed to do so only "slowly," and was "breathing hard."

You really need to start sourcing/linking/quoting.

I've seen that particular page myself, so I know it happened, but go ahead and prove that Yoda carried the gun for "a damn long time." It also was definitely not the size of a house, at least not a big one. Maybe Yoda's hut on Dagobah.

It's still a factor. Just not one that's going to decide the battle.

And of course, realizing he needs to do something = doing it, right?

You know, you still haven't proven it. Meanwhile, I have this:

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses.

Granted, Yoda > Raskta as a swordsman on account of his ridiculously superior power in the Force, but he lacks the battle meditation, the consistency (he needs to keep jumping five feet to actually try and do something, while Raskta doesn't), and later on, the two other people at his back.

You need to pass what you're smoking.

Answer the question. How, precisely, is he going to land a hit?

Originally posted by Faunus
Since when?

Since when can Yoda move faster than Bane can track?

Are you going to seriously argue that without the armor Bane would stand a chance in this fight?

And he's displayed the speed to do so...when? He was having issues just defending his head, do you REALLY see him guarding his body well? No, at all?

Do I need to keep saying 'Shatterpoint' until your tiny brain grasps it?

Seriously, take a break. You're getting worked up, and it's not helping.

Yeah, and it took Raskta, what, moments to adjust and move out of the way?

Yeah, moments my ass.

And in an era when freaking cortosis armor is widespread, I sincerely doubt a Jedi of Yoda's caliber is going to encounter many issues

In other words, you consistently ignore logic in your tiny little fanboy brain. Sure, Bane has a weakness in form.

and skill.

But OMG ORBALISKS!

Yoda is just better than Bane. He beats him far more often than Bane can beat him and frankly, you can't provide a single counter argument.

Now, either you've a bad memory or you're lying out your ass:

And Dooku lost the fight on Vjun utterly. Y'know, Dooku? Able to, with incredible ease, handle Grievous at his best-y'know, the guy able to strike sixteen times a second,

I'm sorry, when were Farfalla or Johun Othone two of the best duelists the Jedi order ever produced? Compared to Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto, AKA the guy capable of moving so fast that Obi-wan could barely follow him?

Mace, able to utterly overwhelm General Grievous in a fight?

Oh, give me a break, 'millions?' Show proof.

In Dark Rendevzous it says the only Jedi who 'might' withstand Yoda on even ground is Mace Windu.

2.) Even if it were true, it needn't be on account of skill. Yoda is faster and more powerful than Mace; he doesn't need to be more skilled.

Yoda's skills with a saber are consistently described as 'extraordinary,' and 'incredible' and 'without peer.'

He's one of two Jedi able to even compete with Palpatine, someone described as an absolute master of every form and style of the saber,

Yoda's able to easily elude Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at once

and frankly, Depa Billaba is likely easily comparable to Raskta, given her standing with Mace Windu.

Is Yoda called in the ROTS novel's narration as the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known because his skill's 'nothing special' or because he's an incredible duelist and a Jedi of, to quote the new encyclopedia as 'extraordinary power'

So yeah, this is why I have a hard time, Exodus. Because you just duplicate Nebaris's hate on for the PT and hard on for the ancients without regard for logic or reason or anything resembling an open mind.

According to the NEC, when a group of clone troopers were left alone and abandoned, Yoda went to the planet by himself and with only his saber, turned the entire droid army into scrap metal, including the giant hailfires into scrap metal in a very short amount of time.

I just realized how much nitpicking I'm doing, but to be fair, it's only because you're wrong so often. Really, you need to shape up.

Are you going to seriously argue that without the armor Bane would stand a chance in this fight?

And he's displayed the speed to do so...when? He was having issues just defending his head, do you REALLY see him guarding his body well? No, at all?

Do I need to keep saying 'Shatterpoint' until your tiny brain grasps it?

Seriously, take a break. You're getting worked up, and it's not helping.

Yeah, and it took Raskta, what, moments to adjust and move out of the way?

Yeah, moments my ass.

And in an era when freaking cortosis armor is widespread, I sincerely doubt a Jedi of Yoda's caliber is going to encounter many issues

In other words, you consistently ignore logic in your tiny little fanboy brain. Sure, Bane has a weakness in form.

and skill.

But OMG ORBALISKS!

Yoda is just better than Bane. He beats him far more often than Bane can beat him and frankly, you can't provide a single counter argument.

Now, either you've a bad memory or you're lying out your ass:

And Dooku lost the fight on Vjun utterly. Y'know, Dooku? Able to, with incredible ease, handle Grievous at his best-y'know, the guy able to strike sixteen times a second,

I'm sorry, when were Farfalla or Johun Othone two of the best duelists the Jedi order ever produced? Compared to Agen Kolar or Kit Fisto, AKA the guy capable of moving so fast that Obi-wan could barely follow him?

Mace, able to utterly overwhelm General Grievous in a fight?

Oh, give me a break, 'millions?' Show proof.

In Dark Rendevzous it says the only Jedi who 'might' withstand Yoda on even ground is Mace Windu.

2.) Even if it were true, it needn't be on account of skill. Yoda is faster and more powerful than Mace; he doesn't need to be more skilled.

Yoda's skills with a saber are consistently described as 'extraordinary,' and 'incredible' and 'without peer.'

He's one of two Jedi able to even compete with Palpatine, someone described as an absolute master of every form and style of the saber,

Yoda's able to easily elude Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba at once

and frankly, Depa Billaba is likely easily comparable to Raskta, given her standing with Mace Windu.

Is Yoda called in the ROTS novel's narration as the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known because his skill's 'nothing special' or because he's an incredible duelist and a Jedi of, to quote the new encyclopedia as 'extraordinary power'

So yeah, this is why I have a hard time, Exodus. Because you just duplicate Nebaris's hate on for the PT and hard on for the ancients without regard for logic or reason or anything resembling an open mind.

According to the NEC, when a group of clone troopers were left alone and abandoned, Yoda went to the planet by himself and with only his saber, turned the entire droid army into scrap metal, including the giant hailfires into scrap metal in a very short amount of time.

I just realized how much nitpicking I'm doing, but to be fair, it's only because you're wrong so much. Really, you need to shape up.

Ten years of studying what, exactly? He had Nadd's Holocron, but that was it and he wasn't continuously studying. And this compares to Yoda's centuries worth of studies and travels, learning about all the different ways of the Force, including accessing numerous Jedi holocrons including the Tedryn, Arca Jeth's, Vodo Baas's and numerous Holocrons besides, not to mention studying Sith Holocrons for the purpose of knowing how to fight the Dark Side.

You're aware Yoda's got a huge command of a lot of lightside techniques and really won't hesitate to kill a Sith, right? Given that he could reach out and if he wanted to, he could burst a vessel in Bane's brain, snap his neck, crush his heart, freeze his organs with Morichro or hit him with Sever Force.

And he wasn't able to beat Dooku? Oh, come on. Dooku decided to go to sabers and Yoda obliged. At no point did Yoda even struggle with Dooku's power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you going to seriously argue that without the armor Bane would stand a chance in this fight?

No, my point is simply that if he didn't have the armour, Bane would have used a different strategy. You were basically saying he 'couldn't' block those attacks, I'm pointing out that he didn't even try to block them because he knew they wouldn't hurt him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, according to Gideon, Nai and others on this forum.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You don't get it. I'm saying 'The Sith' STILL REFERS to their entire forces, hence why they're still called the Sith forces and sith fleet. Originally, Hoth's army was taking them all on and now with the ground they've made and the tide turning, they're aiming to decapitate the empire in destroying the Dark Lords and the rest of the Dark Siders. Was I unclear on any of this?

Yes.

Sorry, but if you had just said this bit;

"Originally, Hoth's army was taking them all on and now with the ground they've made and the tide turning, they're aiming to decapitate the empire in destroying the Dark Lords and the rest of the Dark Siders."

Earlier, it would have saved a lot of trouble.

As it stands, it looks like you were just ignoring Kopecz's "they want to wipe US out" statement (which specifically differentiates the Dark Siders from their regular soldiers).

Anyway, I see what you're saying now.

Originally posted by Faunus
Is it at all relevant?

Again, you just seem desperate to prove that Bane is worthless without the orbalisks (hint: PoD says he isn't), and you're not even doing a good job with that.

Mature, right?

All together now: [b]you still haven't proven it.

I wouldn't take your word for it, considering you bungled the source for a passage you only assumed existed and then were completely wrong in your citation of another.

Y'know, the guy who Kit Fisto manhandled.

Only in The Cestus Deception, which takes place only a year after the Battle of Geonosis.

This never happened. Kit Fisto pulled it off, though.

I'd try to find the passage myself, but the Russian site doesn't have a working copy.

1.) Completely wrong. Yoda believes that the only other Jedi who could stand against Dooku on even ground was Mace.

2.) Even if it were true, it needn't be on account of skill. Yoda is faster and more powerful than Mace; he doesn't need to be more skilled.

Source, and I want to see where it addresses Yoda's skill specifically.

Not that I'm ignoring the significance of Yoda's performance against Palpatine, but the "source" that claims Palpatine is a master of every weapon and every style is, IIRC, Nick Gillard. Reputable canon source... how?

Has nothing to do with technical skill.

Possibly.

He's called "powerful" because he's powerful. That has no bearing whatsoever on his skill.

Hypocrisy.

Passage?

I just realized how much nitpicking I'm doing, but to be fair, it's only because you're wrong so often. Really, you need to shape up. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To Red Nemesis for this one, she massacres a gunship's crew in about eleven seconds,

And this is the whole passage:

Depa had chosen a full ship.

His numbed brain couldn't count them properly, but he guessed there must have been twenty corpses in the bay: an infantry platoon. The pilot must have been young, excited, confident, sure of a glorious kill-so eager to get into the fight that he had sailed into battle without discharging his passengers. He had paid the price for that confidence; his corpse lay crumpled on top of what must have been the navigator's, just inside the cockpit door.

Mace's jaw hardened. He found his balance again, and stepped over their tangled lifeless legs to move deeper into the bay.

All of the corpses in the troop bay wore the militia Graylite body armor; most of the armor had been burned through in several places by close-range blaster bolts. Mace could too easily imagine inexperienced militia men-boys-turning their weapons on Depa as she moved from the cockpit into the bay. The effect of opening fire with energy weapons, point-blank upon a master of Vaapad, was mutely testified to by every charred ring around a finger-sized hole in the armor, and by the burned and lifeless flesh beneath.

Between surprise, panic, and cramped quarters, half of them had probably shot each other.

Several of the bodies bore the characteristic blackened gapes of lightsaber wounds, instantly cauterized by the blade that had opened them. Depa's handling of the ball-turret gunners had been more elegant than Mace's; brutally efficient, she had simply stabbed directly through the durasteel of the hatches, killing the men in their chairs.

The corpses still sat there, dead hands locked around the dual grips of their quads.

And, of course, the smell: seared flesh and ozone.

There was no blood. No blood at all.

Every single one of these men had been dead before she'd ever picked up Chalk and Kar Vaster. Twenty-four men.

Mace doesn't even think she personally killed half of them.

Mace states her bladework has surpassed his own and she's a master of Vaapad which, by and large, emphasizes incredible speed.

Thank you, I'd not seen it before. 'Technique' would definitely imply savers though.

Yeah, Yoda's natural agility is really, really comparable to Bane's magical suit of armor that consistently saves his life through four or five times throughout the book. The fall at the start? Would have killed him otherwise. The Technobeasts? Would have killed him. The Umbaran Shadow Assassins? Orbalisks saved him then.
Yeah, I'll belittle Bane for constantly needing them to save his life.

Ok, comparable size.

I believe it was you who once stressed the difference between power as a whole and potency in individual techniques. Did I say Bane hadn't gotten more powerful? I'm asking for evidence his force lightning as a whole would be so much stronger as for Exodus's argument.

Originally posted by Faunus
Context is cool. He was pointing out why it is likely that the potency of Bane's lightning increased.

The script notes that he blocked the lightning "far from easily."

Originally posted by Faunus
There's no mention of "eleven seconds" anywhere in the book according to ctrl+F. Not even the singular word "eleven."

And this is the whole passage:

Depa had chosen a full ship.

His numbed brain couldn't count them properly, but he guessed there must have been twenty corpses in the bay: an infantry platoon. The pilot must have been young, excited, confident, sure of a glorious kill-so eager to get into the fight that he had sailed into battle without discharging his passengers. He had paid the price for that confidence; his corpse lay crumpled on top of what must have been the navigator's, just inside the cockpit door.

Mace's jaw hardened. He found his balance again, and stepped over their tangled lifeless legs to move deeper into the bay.

All of the corpses in the troop bay wore the militia Graylite body armor; most of the armor had been burned through in several places by close-range blaster bolts. Mace could too easily imagine inexperienced militia men-boys-turning their weapons on Depa as she moved from the cockpit into the bay. The effect of opening fire with energy weapons, point-blank upon a master of Vaapad, was mutely testified to by every charred ring around a finger-sized hole in the armor, and by the burned and lifeless flesh beneath.

Between surprise, panic, and cramped quarters, half of them had probably shot each other.

Several of the bodies bore the characteristic blackened gapes of lightsaber wounds, instantly cauterized by the blade that had opened them. Depa's handling of the ball-turret gunners had been more elegant than Mace's; brutally efficient, she had simply stabbed directly through the durasteel of the hatches, killing the men in their chairs.

The corpses still sat there, dead hands locked around the dual grips of their quads.

And, of course, the smell: seared flesh and ozone.

There was no blood. No blood at all.

Every single one of these men had been dead before she'd ever picked up Chalk and Kar Vaster. Twenty-four men.

Mace doesn't even think she personally killed half of them.

Is Force-lightning ever indicated to be something more than a particular mainfestation of rage? If that's all it is, then it would make sense that the more powerful one grows, the greater the extent to which he could project that rage and power.

I need a break. Either later tonight or tommorow, I'll get back to this.

But to clarify one thing: I'm going after your posts because there is a lot wrong with them. Whenever you get pissed off - which usually has something to do with either the person you're debating and the characters involved, instead of the actual argument - you go off on these insane rants. You're significantly better than what you've showed here, so I hold you to a certain standard.

The reason I'm not going after Exodus? I haven't caught anything she said that was explicitly wrong. It doesn't mean I agree with her conclusion.

And Lethal Rogue? He hasn't even debated anything. Your "cheerleader" comment was pretty much right on, and as soon as I saw "Bane created the rule of two" in a statement he made to prove to Bane's superiority in combat, I stopped reading.

Fine, thank you, Faunus, I'll make the effort to improve here. Exodus and Rogue have my apologies.

There's no mention of "eleven seconds" anywhere in the book according to ctrl+F. Not even the singular word "eleven."

thank you. My source was Red Nemesis's post from an earlier thread.

Since I don't want it to sound like I misquoted anything, maybe I should finish the passage for you Faunus:

There was no blood. No blood at all.

Every single one of these men had been dead before she'd ever picked up Chalk and Kar Vaster. Twenty-four men.

In less than a minute.

Mace turned around and found Kar Vastor staring at him, fiercly triumphant.

He growled simply: She belongs here.

It was disingenuous of you to stop your quote directly before the part that specifies the speed at which it occurred, especially since you gave the impression that speed was never mentioned.