Zoom vs. Superman

Originally posted by Allankles
Another thing that needs to be clarified is how Zoom's powers work relative to normal space-time.

He doesn't move in and out of normal time he merely manipulates time around himself i.e. he manipulates the "speed" at which time affects him, he doesn't move in and out of time like Enyalus suggested.

That's how Inertia turned him into a cripple he didn't manipulate relative time he just manipulated the "speed" with which time affected Zoom. So all this hogwash about Supes not being able to sense Zoom is bs since Zoom moves in normal time but his body is affected by time at a different "speed".

So for brief moments Zoom is able to slow the effects of time on his own body he doesn't actually travel through time or anything.

Actually the scan very clearly states the he is in fact blinking in and out of the timestream. IT is as clear as day.

Originally posted by iceman24567
What you can't find infinite Crisis? Thats not possible.

i can't find the part where E2 supes beat zoom with ease..Avlon said it is in IC..i look through it..but can't find the fight..

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually the scan very clearly states the he is in fact blinking in and out of the timestream. IT is as clear as day.

That's WW's interpretation and it is quite clearly inconsistency with all the other explanations for Zoom's speed. He doesn't blink in and out of the time stream because he's always in normal space-time only that he slows down time relative to the space occupied by his own body.

To the senses of most people (namely WW in this case) it would appear he's going in and out of the time stream but in fact he's moving at normal speed only that he's slowing down time relative to his own space.

So he is very much in the time stream just manipulating it's flow (for brief moments) in relation to his own space.

Originally posted by Slaanesh
i still can't find this in Infinite crisis..can u tell me the issue number?

Would love to help you on that but my comics are all in storage with my current move.

I'm sure someone here can point it out to you.

are you talking about adventures 649 when he beams zoom and a bunch of villains in to the phantom zone? or is it during the battle at metropolis he does something? i'm not recalling which it was, but it has been a while...

Superman for the win

Originally posted by Allankles
That's WW's interpretation and it is quite clearly inconsistency with all the other explanations for Zoom's speed. He doesn't blink in and out of the time stream because he's always in normal space-time only that he slows down time relative to the space occupied by his own body.

To the senses of most people (namely WW in this case) it would appear he's going in and out of the time stream but in fact he's moving at normal speed only that he's slowing down time relative to his own space.

So he is very much in the time stream just manipulating it's flow (for brief moments) in relation to his own space.

Although it seems like the writers don't know how Zoom's powers work themselves. They give him speed force powers without him actually having a connection to it.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's WW's interpretation and it is quite clearly inconsistency with all the other explanations for Zoom's speed. He doesn't blink in and out of the time stream because he's always in normal space-time only that he slows down time relative to the space occupied by his own body.

To the senses of most people (namely WW in this case) it would appear he's going in and out of the time stream but in fact he's moving at normal speed only that he's slowing down time relative to his own space.

So he is very much in the time stream just manipulating it's flow (for brief moments) in relation to his own space.

And in what comic is this theory of urs explained? Or would u rather ignore the comics for what u think makes more sense?

E2 Supes hitting Zoom was in the last issue of IC. Zoom outmaneuvers the other JSAers, but E2 Supes tags him.

Supes has also said that he can attack too fast for Wally to stop him. Granted Zoom>>Wally, but the .5k start distance should give Supes enough time to get a move off. How effective that first move is may determine the outcome of a few fights.

Beyond that Zoom would spend 90% of these fights on the offensive, while Clark would be stuck on defense. I'm sure Zoom could KO Supes with enough punches, but how many would determine a few of the fights too.

I think a non-PIS Zoom operating at "Wally-can't see-me-levels" would probably take 7/10 against Supes.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
E2 Supes hitting Zoom was in the last issue of IC. Zoom outmaneuvers the other JSAers, but E2 Supes tags him.

There ya go.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
Supes has also said that he can attack too fast for Wally to stop him. Granted Zoom>>Wally, but the .5k start distance should give Supes enough time to get a move off. How effective that first move is may determine the outcome of a few fights.

Both need to accelerate somewhat. This isn't a race, it's a battle.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
Beyond that Zoom would spend 90% of these fights on the offensive, while Clark would be stuck on defense. I'm sure Zoom could KO Supes with enough punches, but how many would determine a few of the fights too.

Zoom doesn't have a choice but to be on the offensive. Clark has so much more in his arsenal including a few speed tricks of his own. Supes can end the fight in one shot while Zoom hasn't been shown to be more than an annoyance on Clark.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
I think a non-PIS Zoom operating at "Wally-can't see-me-levels" would probably take 7/10 against Supes.

Wally's perceptions while awesome in it's own way doesn't match up to Superman's.

Superman

How do you think the fight would go, Avlon?

I'm sorry if you have already said, but I don't want to dig through 9 pages to find your answer.

Originally posted by Enyalus
👆

Now then, where to start...

With the obvious, I suppose. On Earth, in-the-atmospheric speed. Here, Supes is attempting to chase down Flash in order to get some answers. Flash is in the lead. They're both going about 2,000 miles per second:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_Supes_race1.jpg

Notice what that also says? Superman's perception (sight) is inferior to Flash's at those speeds. They hadn't adjusted to the speeds they were both going yet.

Here, Flash has the combined speed of himself, Jay, Bart, and Jesse. They're entire battle (essentially half of the comic) has lasted less than a second, in which they've circled the globe a dozen times*. Flash says none of the other heroes would be any help. They can't fight at those speeds. Supes included:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_ampedbattle.jpg
*Geek note: the circumference of the Earth is about 25,000 miles.

This is made pretty evident in Countdown, when Zoom blitzes Batman, Superman, and Diana simultaneously:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8290/zoomsl5.jpg

Returning to his battle with the fully amped Flash...he's still able to blitz him:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_amp_blitz.jpg

Prior to this, when Wally has the combined speed of Jay and Bart and can accelerate to light speed instantaneously, Zoom is still so fast that he's a blur to Wally:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_amp_blur.jpg

To a base Wally and Jay, he's so fast when moving that he's completely invisible (he also two shots Jay here, including sending him across the city):

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitzes_Flashes1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitzes_Flashes2.jpg

Keep in mind that this is the guy who's perception is better than Superman and, for starters dodge 1500 strikes per second easily, as well as see and dodge the vast majority of Amazo's blows thrown at Flash-like speeds even after being barely conscious:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_1500.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_1000.jpg
3. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_0.jpg
4. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_1.jpg
5. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_2.jpg
6. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_3.jpg
7. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_4.jpg
3-7 are just because I can.

Zoom can not only blitz opponents, but block at the same speed - as evidenced here, when he easily staves off an angry Wally's attempted blitz with one-hand:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitz_counter.jpg

Here's another reason why Superman's senses won't be able to follow Zoom - as I explained earlier, Zoom temporal powers allow him to simply blink in and out of the current timeline, ghostlike, with full personal control over his exploitation of the timestream itself:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_timestream1.jpg
2. http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2088/z3dx4.jpg

This allows him to do more than just run really fast. He's got ranged attack, which are decently powerful and capable of hitting Superman even if he was in the air:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_sonicboom1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues2.jpg
3. http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8530/z2jv3.jpg

Ah, and I should bring up that just because Superman is in the air, doesn't make him safe from a Zoom speedblitz:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_heightscaling.jpg

As for the contention that he somehow has baseline human durability, this is not true. Here he is catching a razor sharp boomerang thrown at the speed of sound, easily:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues1.jpg

And:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_durability.jpg

That looked like it hurt. How will Zoom respond?

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana2.jpg
3. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana3.jpg

A few things to mention from the above rape - Zoom can punch at at least light speed (something Superman can't come close to matching.) And according to Diana yes, he hits harder than Superman. Zoom knocks her from Boston to Paris, from Paris to Egypt, and from Egypt to China. Thousands of miles apart. Does Supes to anything similar to Diana in Sacrifice, when he isn't holding back or pulling his punches and bloodlusted? No. And it isn't a new, one-time showing for Zoom, either. In one of his first appearances he knocks Jay from New York to Dallas with one punch:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_strikingpower1.jpg

Keep in mind that Zoom was a former police officer and FBI agent, thus having governmental combat training. He knows exactly how and where nerve clusters and pressure points act and are:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_PP.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_PP2.jpg
In the first scan, Bart has the entire Speed Force within him.

As for the laughable notion that Superman's HV is going to make a difference, here's how Flash deals with it:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_Supes_HV.jpg

And regarding Supeman's arctic breath...here's how Zoom deals with Captain Cold (absolute zero temperatures with his gun...also note lifting him off the ground one-handed from a standing position, indicating above-human natural strength):

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues3.jpg

Not only that, but Superman's freeze breath is due to the supercompressed air in his lungs and him blowing it out. If any of you think Superman's even going to get the chance to breathe when starting out .5 km apart from each other by now, please see a therapist.

Not that it matters. In addition to him being able to simply blink out of the current time to avoid the cold or heat vision, he can vibrate intangible:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_vibration1.jpg
2. http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3437/zoomvibrate1ie6.jpg
3. http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6587/zoomvibrate2ew4.jpg

...That's about all the reasons I can conceivably think of why Superman has zero chance in this match. All scans courtesy of Galan and myself.

Zoom wins

Originally posted by Allankles
I've also seen the WW Zoom fight and it's bs. First of all Superman can punch at lightspeed, not from a dead stop over short distances because he doesn't have the acceleration of people like Zoom but it is well within reach of his abilities to punch people at lightspeed.

Unless you can actually show me, Superman has never gone lightspeed or higher on Earth, let alone punching people at that speed.

Originally posted by Allankles
In IC Supes fight with Earth 2 Superman was opening up dimensional rifts and he brawled and grappled with Emo Supes at hundreds of times lightspeed going from Earth to Rao in a few short panels .

Regarding the Prime thing, it was just a bit outside of Oa to Rao, and there's no proof whatsoever they were going over lightspeed at all. Prime even mentions that he'll fly through Oa "at lightspeed" to cause a Big Bang. And when he's grappling with E2 and E1 Supes, he flat out tells them that they can't trap him in the Speedforce because they aren't fast enough. But hey, whenever you have evidence showing otherwise, be my guest. Even in the Supes Respect thread there's statements like he can 'race' a photon (which goes at light speed), and there are scans of John Kent questioning his ability to go beyond light speed, and Superman has STATED that he isn't FTL before.

So if you're going to make the claim that he can go hundreds of times it, you gotta back it up with better evidence than that.

Originally posted by Allankles
Another thing that needs to be clarified is how Zoom's powers work relative to normal space-time.

He doesn't move in and out of normal time he merely manipulates time around himself i.e. he manipulates the "speed" at which time affects him, he doesn't move in and out of time like Enyalus suggested.

That's how Inertia turned him into a cripple he didn't manipulate relative time he just manipulated the "speed" with which time affected Zoom. So all this hogwash about Supes not being able to sense Zoom is bs since Zoom moves in normal time but his body is affected by time at a different "speed".

So for brief moments Zoom is able to slow the effects of time on his own body he doesn't actually travel through time or anything.

Also false. In Flash - The Fastest Man Alive #10, Zoom is in the year 410 AD watching Rome burn. Clearly, he can travel back in time or forward in it.

Originally posted by Avlon
Good post. We still don't see Zoom do anything but at most be a nuisance to Supes when he tagged him by surprise. How did the WW fight end btw? 🙂 Like said earlier, E2 Supes took out Zoom with relative ease and that's someone who Clark has matched.

IMO the reason why he wasn't able to lay him out on the ground during that blitz is because anyone who blitzes their punches carry less strength than just one, full blast punch. Like he did to Jay and Wonder Woman, and like Flash does with his IMPs. But, thats purely my opinion and I can't back it up.

I'm thinking your WW fight question was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway. He grabs one of her Amazons (Io) and punches her 200 times before Diana can even react. He asks if she thinks Io will be able to survive another 200, and Diana says no. Then asks if he's a hero or a killer. He's caught offguard by the question and, still with Ion in one hand, is caught by her lasso. After that its game over.

E2 Supes punched Zoom once, that's all. It doesn't equate with him 'taking him out.' Not only that, but Zoom was fighting Power Girl and other JSAers at the time, and E2 Supes came from above and behind Zoom when he tagged him. Zoom never saw him. It wasn't a fight. And Superman has nobody here to distract Zoom...just like he won't have Hal Jordan to stop Zoom's blitz such as in Countdown.

Originally posted by Allankles
So he is very much in the time stream just manipulating it's flow (for brief moments) in relation to his own space.

See above. Your explanation is wrong. Can't blame you for it, though - that's the explanation that Wikipedia gives, and why they do so I have no idea.

Originally posted by Avlon
Both need to accelerate somewhat. This isn't a race, it's a battle.

Acceleration is pretty easy when you can move ahead of the current timeline. 😛 I mean, again, Flash could accelerate from 0 to c instantly and Zoom was still a blur.

I heard someone mentioning the .5 km distance giving Superman the time it takes to do something. This is incorrect. I thought my previous post made that clear, because I gave the stats. I'll spell it out this time instead: Zoom and a fully amped Flash had an entire battle - punches, blitzes, running on water, counters, etc....ran around the entire world a dozen times in less than a second. Earth's circumference is over 40,000 km. The speed of light is 300,000 km/s. That means he and Flash were fighting at at least 1.6 times the speed of light. And that includes the times during the fight where they stood still, chatted, and got knocked down.

Clearly, Zoom is capable of crossing that distance before Superman even knows it.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
E2 Supes hitting Zoom was in the last issue of IC. Zoom outmaneuvers the other JSAers, but E2 Supes tags him.

it's IC #7 rite??hem..nope..from what i see..E2 supes didn't even hit zoom..he outmaneuver them all..

Originally posted by Enyalus

Unless you can actually show me, Superman has never gone lightspeed or higher on Earth, let alone punching people at that speed.

Regarding the Prime thing, it was just a bit outside of Oa to Rao, and there's no proof whatsoever they were going over lightspeed at all. Prime even mentions that he'll fly through Oa "at lightspeed" to cause a Big Bang. And when he's grappling with E2 and E1 Supes, he flat out tells them that they can't trap him in the Speedforce because they aren't fast enough. But hey, whenever you have evidence showing otherwise, be my guest. Even in the Supes Respect thread there's statements like he can 'race' a photon (which goes at light speed), and there are scans of John Kent questioning his ability to go beyond light speed, and Superman has STATED that he isn't FTL before.

So if you're going to make the claim that he can go hundreds of times it, you gotta back it up with better evidence than that.

Also false. In Flash - The Fastest Man Alive #10, Zoom is in the year 410 AD watching Rome burn. Clearly, he can travel back in time or forward in it.

IMO the reason why he wasn't able to lay him out on the ground during that blitz is because anyone who blitzes their punches carry less strength than just one, full blast punch. Like he did to Jay and Wonder Woman, and like Flash does with his IMPs. But, thats purely my opinion and I can't back it up.

I'm thinking your WW fight question was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway. He grabs one of her Amazons (Io) and punches her 200 times before Diana can even react. He asks if she thinks Io will be able to survive another 200, and Diana says no. Then asks if he's a hero or a killer. He's caught offguard by the question and, still with Ion in one hand, is caught by her lasso. After that its game over.

E2 Supes punched Zoom once, that's all. It doesn't equate with him 'taking him out.' Not only that, but Zoom was fighting Power Girl and other JSAers at the time, and E2 Supes came from above and behind Zoom when he tagged him. Zoom never saw him. It wasn't a fight. And Superman has nobody here to distract Zoom...just like he won't have Hal Jordan to stop Zoom's blitz such as in Countdown.

See above. Your explanation is wrong. Can't blame you for it, though - that's the explanation that Wikipedia gives, and why they do so I have no idea.

Acceleration is pretty easy when you can move ahead of the current timeline. 😛 I mean, again, Flash could accelerate from 0 to c instantly and Zoom was still a blur.

I heard someone mentioning the .5 km distance giving Superman the time it takes to do something. This is incorrect. I thought my previous post made that clear, because I gave the stats. I'll spell it out this time instead: Zoom and a fully amped Flash had an entire battle - punches, blitzes, running on water, counters, etc....ran around the entire world a dozen times in less than a second. Earth's circumference is over 40,000 km. The speed of light is 300,000 km/s. That means he and Flash were fighting at at least 1.6 times the speed of light. And that includes the times during the fight where they stood still, chatted, and got knocked down.

Clearly, Zoom is capable of crossing that distance before Superman even knows it. [/B]

Superman wouldn't have a problem with Zoom <b>IF</b> Zoom doesn't hit as hard(or harder) then Superman.

Zoom

Zoom wins easily. Superman might as well be a statue compared to him. I have a scan showing this, but this site won't let me post images yet (it might have already been posted above).

And as for Superman being light speed, I have a scan of him flying around 18x that.