Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That doesn't explain away every other encounters between the heroes and NGs in the 4th World. Or are you saying every NG uses an avatar in the 4th World as well?
I doubt every NG uses avatars, I'm just pointing out that DS uses avatars all over the universe including Apokolips itself. And in FC he claims the heroes have only faced the idea of Darkseid.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That doesn't explain away every other encounters between the heroes and NGs in the 4th World. Or are you saying every NG uses an avatar in the 4th World as well?
Not all, but most as mentioned Darkseid has used avatars several times before, and note the part about people beating the avatars
1. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/ngv3-15-10.jpg
2. http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/ngv3-15-11.jpg
"
What you babbling about now? Are there alternate 4th Worlds in the DCU or something? Did I miss something?"
No, just one of the main points of FC. You've never seen the new gods at their true stature in the main DCU. In the 4th world, yes. But never on that scale on earth. Countdown and DOTNG were just glimpeses of infinite possibilities.
"Bullshit. Then how do you explain every time Superman and other DC heroes showing up to the 4th world via boom tube and beating up Darkseid? Are you saying that they were only beating up ideas of the NGs in the 4th World? "
...........Do you not understand how the boom tube works? 😐
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/NewGods3.jpg
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
...........Do you not understand how the boom tube works? 😐
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/NewGods3.jpg
Hey TP, don't jump on me for asking this, 'cause its a serious question and nothing more: How come Libra was the same size as the other New Gods when he came to Apokolips? He didn't have a Boom Tube.
Libra grew to a size larger than a galaxy and effectively transcended to Apokolips without a boom tube. His awareness was expanded to a near universal level.
It's also possible Darkseid had a hand in it or that the devices Libra got from Godfrey were designed to reconstitute him, or that he was meant to expand his awareness that much to get to the 4th world.
Either way, New God tech was responsible for it, so that one gets a pass.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Hey TP, don't jump on me for asking this, 'cause its a serious question and nothing more: How come Libra was the same size as the other New Gods when he came to Apokolips? He didn't have a Boom Tube.
I believe he used New God tech like Trick said, Godfrey (working for DS) gave him tech and he worked on a machine to allow his atoms expanded till he reached the Fourth World (tho he didn't know that would happen), where Darkseid was waiting for him, he gave himself to Darkseid and then was transformed to bring balance to the world or you could say the ALE and spread it.. Not to sure how that all fits together but it does somehow..
Originally posted by kevdude
I believe he used New God tech like Trick said, Godfrey (working for DS) gave him tech and he worked on a machine to allow his atoms expanded till he reached the Fourth World (tho he didn't know that would happen), where Darkseid was waiting for him, he gave himself to Darkseid and then was transformed to bring balance to the world or you could say the ALE and spread it.. Not to sure how that all fits together but it does somehow..
Without going back to reread the story, I remember it as Libra absorbed so much power that his consciousness expanded and forgot to hold his body together. He rematerializes later on in Apokolips, and the rematerialization is thanks to the New Gods. But he's not wearing a boom tube. And nothing else was said about it.
It's remarkable the fact that when Starlin wanks Thanos all over the place and tries to retcon his ass handed to him by Kazar and Squirel Girl people instantly start screaming "IT WAS TEH CLONE!!!" but when Morrison actually gives a retcon that a) makes more sense, b) has also been stated before his involvement by other writers the only thing the THANOS FANBOYS can say is "BUT SUPERMAN BEAT HIM AND IT MUST BE CANON BECAUSE ME LIKES IT TO BE CANON"
As for Galactus?
NON CANON.
Becuase if it is canon then everything is canon Spiderman>>Superboy
Wolverine>>Lobo
Batman>>Hulk
Venom>>Superman
etc
In FC DS was portrayed as he should since his Kirby and GDS days.
People will start to accept it in time, even the haters.
Originally posted by comicfan11
It's remarkable the fact that when Starlin wanks Thanos all over the place and tries to retcon his ass handed to him by Kazar and Squirel Girl people instantly start screaming "IT WAS TEH CLONE!!!"
Erm. The Za-Zar loss made no sense, since Thanos was seemingly physically overpowered by a human...yet had physically overpowered Hulk, Thing, Drax, etc. And the Squirrel Girl one being made a clone wasn't even a Starlin retcon.
Just saying.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Erm. The Za-Zar loss made no sense, since Thanos was seemingly physically overpowered by a human...yet had physically overpowered Hulk, Thing, Drax, etc. And the Squirrel Girl one being made a clone wasn't even a Starlin retcon.Just saying.
I know and I accept it because the writers wrote it.
It was in the actual comic.
My problem is that in FC and prior to FC it was also stated that most of DS loses if not all were avatars.
Know in these cases people who I have no problem of calling HATERS or simply FANBOYS don't accept it although it is laid before their eyes.
Two standards.
Thanos retcons=good
Darkseid retcons=NO!!NO!!NO!!IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!AAAAHHHHH!!!!
That's all I'm saying.
Originally posted by comicfan11
I know and I accept it because the writers wrote it.
It was in the actual comic.My problem is that in FC and prior to FC it was also stated that most of DS loses if not all were avatars.
Know in these cases people who I have no problem of calling HATERS or simply FANBOYS don't accept it although it is laid before their eyes.Two standards.
Thanos retcons=good
Darkseid retcons=NO!!NO!!NO!!IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!AAAAHHHHH!!!!
That's all I'm saying.
DS is a multiversal being in his true form as he was intended. Skyfather when he's in shadow form.
To All: Time to refocus. I've been getting distracted with straw-man argumentation, thinly veiled flames and EXCESSIVE USE OF CAPs. I've been re-reading some of your older posts that were less choked up with sort of junk. Some of them have points, and since I deride people dropping an argument as soon as it goes south, I'm not going to be accused of the same. So I'm going to sum up your main arguments, go back to the story and reframe my points........
Originally posted by fangirl101From fangirl101: Basically, you cannot use [i]Countown, Death of the New Gods or even Cosmic Odyssey as proof that the ALE is more than just mind-control because one of the main themes throughout Final Crisis is that we cannot comprehend the workings of Gods. Any pre-Final Crisis events should be treated as presentations of events that are limited in scope.[/i]
only marvel Strokers give him the win. Seriously. His argument fails on so many levels and is aweful. Anyone knows that the war in heaven had Infinite showings of the same battle. What we saw in Countdown and DOTNG was just one possibility of what happened.
To fangirl101: Fine. I can agree with that. In all honesty, we all have preconceptions in our mind of certain characters and that can get in the way of a storyline whose purpose is to upend everything we know. I should approach Final Crisis without any preconceptions of Darkseid's personal power. Because surely they were based on unreliable history. Therefore, Darkseid could indeed have a greater scope of power than anyone imagined. Right?
What you should be aware of is this: Your opinion of the Anti-Life Equation should be subject to the same rationale. The majority of stories that deal with the Anti-Life Equation regard it as absolute control over sentient life. But those preconceptions are based on unreliable history as well. Therefore, the Anti-Life Equation could also indeed have a greater scope of power than anyone imagined. Reasonable? Fine. Now that we have that established........
Originally posted by kevdudeFrom kevdude: Although Mr Miracle states that "The cosmic war broke time and space," that statement is not purely dispositive of the possibility that Darkseid's personal power broke time and space. After all, the end-result of the war is, in fact, Darkseid falling. ANd we all agree that Darkseid falling = dragging the Multiverse = folding spacetime into a singularity. Therefore, Mr Miracle's statement could be referencing the end-result of the cosmic war, which is Darkseid falling = dragging the Multiverse = folding spacetime. As such, it's not proof positive that spacetime broke BEFORE Darkseid fell.
You 2 don't even understand what they mean when they said the war broke time and space, they are talking about it was so bad with the end of the war and Darkseids fall into the Multiverse that is what broke time and space.. Everything has to be spelled out for people??
To kevdude: That's a very reasonable argument. One that is buried pages ago. It is possible that is true. However, the interpretation I've been setting forth could also be equally true, all things considered equal. Indeed, relying solely on the plain meaning of the words leads you to conclude that the cosmic war actually did break time and space before Darkseid fell. However, we have other pieces of evidence to consider. So let's move on to them.......
^ continued
Originally posted by comicfan11From comicfan11: Basically, there needs to be more correlation for you to prove that the ALE has something to do with Darkseid's folding spacetime. Either, time and space was initially broken as a direct consequence of using the ALE during the war, OR the ALE just plain breaks time and space outright. Well, the only survivor of the war is Motherboxxx, and as argued by kevdude above, its arguable one way or the other. If the ALE did something else on-panel other than enslave minds, you'd have a point. But it didn't, not clearly anyway enough in [i]Final Crisis: Revelations anyway. So what we have is the Anti-Life Equation clearly taking over minds and nothing else. And there is something to be said for the abundance of evidence that the Anti-Life Equation controls minds. So if it can't do more than that, how can you believe it actually collapses space and time?[/i]
I don't know how to say it in a different way but THE ALE ENSLAVES FREE WILL.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
To comicfan11: Fine. Let's for a moment, consider that what Cain and Spectre speak of and do on-panel in Final Crisis: Revelations is, at best, debateable. Taking that off the board, arguably, I've presented nothing else but correlative evidence, e.g. Life Equation and Miracle Machine, what's the point of controlling minds if everything gets crushed, etc. Let's put that aside as well since it isn't positive evidence that the ALE can do anything else.
First off, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And having read Final Crisismore carefully, I present to you several scans:
Bingo. So Wonderwoman infects people with the Anti-Life Equation and what happens? Surely their minds are being taken over. But as clearly stated on-panel by the distraught heroes, it also takes their powers away. Proof that ALE does more than just enslave minds. As intimated by Cain and Spectre and even Morrison himself to be honest. By this evidence alone, we now know the scope of the ALE is more than just mind-control. However, is it good enough for you? Considering the amount of recalcitrance already, maybe not. It can take away will, it can take away power. That's not proof it can give you power. And while I might be satisfied resting my laurels and having proved your statement wrong, I haven't necessarily proved my statements right. So here's another set of scans. But first, a question, "Whent eh Flashes raced through Darkseid... where did all those Omega Finder Beams come from actually?" Darkseid never shot them at the Flashes and besides, there's a whole bunch of em:
Answer, all the innocent ALE-infected humans ("ALEers"😉that were surrounding Superman and Darkseid shot them out of their own eyes:
It's clear. The ALEers who are surrounding Superman talk with Darkseid's voice and ask him if Superman can outrace the Omega Sanction with their eyes glowing red. The Flashes burst onto the scene and the ALEers turn around and react to the light growing behind them. The next page shows the ALEers shooting the Omega Finder Beams at the passing Flashes. That's where they came from and because multiple ALEers shot them, that's why there are so many beams in the first place. It's right there in that panel. You an see it come from their eyes. The Anti-Life Equation doesn't just enslave minds. It can strip people of powers. It can also give people powers. It makes sense after all. Like I told you from the start, Darkseid didn't just want to enslave their minds, he literally wanted their entire beings to become him. He wanted all of existence to become him. There's your proof, the ALE did more than just give Darkseid control over people's minds. As I've always thought, the ALE actually makes everything... Darkseid. Of course, I'm not done yet.......
Originally posted by AllanklesFrom Allankles: The true bottom-line is: whether or not the ALE is only mind-control or is more than that, there is no concrete proof that Darkseid used the ALE in some way to collapse time and space. And so what if you prove Darkseid can do other things with the ALE? It's still speculation that he used the ALE for collapsing time and space without proof!
Also the ALE only enslaves souls it doesn't rewrite or crumple space and time.
To Allankles: Fine. That'd be true. If not for this:
You see? When Mokkari released the Anti-Life Equation over the Internet at 5:30 PM EST, "That's when time, space... everything cracked." You wanted proof the ALE can break time and space? There you go. On-panel. And this is WELL before Darkseid finally crushed Turpin's spirit and manifested his true form on New Earth even. Reread it yourself. On-panel.
To All: That's it, people. You can't take Final Crisis Darkseid without the ALE. I rebutted all your points. Besides everything stated above, too many things lose their logic when you try to rationalize the idea that Darkseid did it all with his own personal power. I didn't have it all laid out throughout the course of the debate and I got distracted a bit. Indeed, I almost missed where those Omega Finder Beams came from. But I hope I laid it out for you and showed you that I have reasons for my opinions and this isn't borne solely out of "haterade." Nuff said.
The infection is not the ALE. It's Mortioccus. The virus from countdown.
The beams being shot out of the people has precedent and is Darkseid's own power. COIE. Alexander Luthor.
Turpin was already struggling with Darkseid's spirit in the back of his mind before the ALE message was sent out. Darkseid was in Turpin's head since the end of FC 1. Yes, it was before his full manifestation, but Turpin gradually started turning into Darkseid physically, so the distortion got worse as.....guess what, Darkseid more fully manifested. 😛
Time and time I've proven you wrong but still you hold to pieces of twisted information to prove a point that only you and KurputThanosi share.
And now for one more time I will prove you wrong again.
First off the panel you so eagerly posted states "Wonder Woman infected them"
It doesn't say with what.
Let me give you a hint.
It's not the ALE.
It's the Morticocus Virus.
FC 7 page 19 panel 4.
"Morticocus. The God Bacterium designed to strip Earth's heroes from their powers"
Originally posted by TricksterPriest.
"
What you babbling about now? Are there alternate 4th Worlds in the DCU or something? Did I miss something?"No, just one of the main points of FC. You've never seen the new gods at their true stature in the main DCU. In the 4th world, yes. But never on that scale on earth. Countdown and DOTNG were just glimpeses of infinite possibilities.
"Bullshit. Then how do you explain every time Superman and other DC heroes showing up to the 4th world via boom tube and beating up Darkseid? Are you saying that they were only beating up ideas of the NGs in the 4th World? "
...........Do you not understand how the boom tube works? 😐
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/NewGods3.jpg
Ah. Boomtube. 😂 So heroes and villains have met the NG's via boomtube. And they've physically fought the NG, not just the "idea of a New God", in the 4th World and punched them in their faces. Gotcha! Tsk, thanks for clearing that up. So when everytime Superman boomtubed there and started wrecking sh#t; he wasn't just beating up concepts - well except maybe Darkseid who hides behind avatars.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestEDIT: Ah. Truth I guess. I can admit that when you both point it out. Missed it. I agree that is Morticoccus.
The infection is not the ALE. It's Mortioccus. The virus from countdown.The beams being shot out of the people has precedent and is Darkseid's own power. COIE. Alexander Luthor.
Turpin was already struggling with Darkseid's spirit in the back of his mind before the ALE message was sent out. Darkseid was in Turpin's head since the end of FC 1. Yes, it was before his full manifestation, but Turpin gradually started turning into Darkseid physically, so the distortion got worse as.....guess what, Darkseid more fully manifested. 😛
Darkseid pressed a button in Crisis Of Infinite Earths. And the beams shooting out from Alexander Luthor's eyes was blue and looked nothing like the Omega Finder Beams. Pure speculation that he shot the Omega Finder Beams through Alexander Luthor... by pressing a button... on a machine...
Distortion may have gotten worse because Darkseid finally manifested and was able to accelerate the distortion. Doesn't change the fact that the exact moment Mokkari released the Anti-Life Equation, time and space and everythign cracked... and all while Darkseid was busy crushing Turpin's will.
P.S. Superman made one wish, Tricksterpriest. Not two. He also used counter-vibrations to destroy Darkseid's spirit, not the Life Equation. K? Just so we're clear.
P.P.S. Doesn't really change much of my analysis, comicfan11, since I gave another example of the ALE being more than just offering control over people's will.
