Darkseid vs Depowered Tyrant

As for what Oracle says in issue 4 about Time and Space cracked, she contradicts herself just a few pages later when she says "I saw a glimpse of the ALE and it's mathematical proof that DS is the rightfull owner of the universe"

But the thing that makes all the difference is that although Oracle says what she says at the start of the issue the only thing we see is communication breakdown and people mind control.

The multiverse starts falling (raining blood, Alan Scott's flame vanishing, GL's unable to reach Earth) all happen when DS is reborn.

Originally posted by kevdude
I believe he used New God tech like Trick said, Godfrey (working for DS) gave him tech and he worked on a machine to allow his atoms expanded till he reached the Fourth World (tho he didn't know that would happen), where Darkseid was waiting for him, he gave himself to Darkseid and then was transformed to bring balance to the world or you could say the ALE and spread it.. Not to sure how that all fits together but it does somehow..

Darkseid could have just boomtubed him there.

Anyways reading Secret Files, I get feeling Darkseid's plan was for Libra was more than lead on. Godfrey stated that Darkseid had great interest in Libra's work and was willing to fund him work. My speculation would be that Libra's consciousness becoming part of the cosmos lead him to understand/discover the mathematical equation that proves Darkseid is the master. Darkseid never had the equation until Libra brought it to him. Once that happened, Darkseid was able to turn the tide and win the war against New Genesis. But that's only my speculation on the matter using statements in FC #7 that Libra was the ALE.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Darkseid could have just boomtubed him there.

Anyways reading Secret Files, I get feeling Darkseid's plan was for Libra was more than lead on. Godfrey stated that Darkseid had great interest in Libra's work and was willing to fund him work. My speculation would be that Libra's consciousness becoming part of the cosmos lead him to understand/discover the mathematical equation that proves Darkseid is the master. Darkseid never had the equation until Libra brought it to him. Once that happened, Darkseid was able to turn the tide and win the war against New Genesis. But that's only my speculation on the matter using statements in FC #7 that Libra was the ALE.

Very nice theory

For you comicfan11: facepalm

As you say, everyone can make their own opinions. Other than the Morticoccus gaff (thank you for the panel reference), I am satisfied with my explanations and direct responses to all of your criticisms on the last page. It doesn't get any clearer than on-panel proof. Maybe tomorrow, I'll do the second part of my argument and reframe all my criticisms of your view. Trust me. It's going to be much easier for me to tear down than construct. Til then, don't think about it too hard, comicfan11. The truth shall set you free. Gnight. Peace.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For you comicfan11: facepalm

As you say, everyone can make their own opinions. Other than the Morticoccus gaff (thank you for the panel reference), I am satisfied with my explanations and direct responses to all of your criticisms on the last page. It doesn't get any clearer than on-panel proof. Maybe tomorrow, I'll do the second part of my argument and reframe all my criticisms of your view. Trust me. It's going to be much easier for me to tear down than construct. Til then, don't think about it too hard, comicfan11. The truth shall set you free. Gnight. Peace.

Good morning you mean
Hehe it's morning in Europe.

The feelings are mutual
I'll be waiting.

The thing is that most opinions are in DS's favors for the moment.

Anyway bye for now

So, you guys are saying the war, or DS dying or the ALE (a powerup per se) didn't cause a chain reaction and space and time starting to crumble? Those two things certainly did cause such things to happen and it's stated with on panel proof. Those things which weren't DS doing and under his own power certainly helped things get going a lot. I'm sure DS used some of his power to further carry things on no doubt. HOwever, to say all of what happend to space, time and the multiverse was all under his own power is silly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
How many times do I have to explain that you are completely mischaracterizing my argument? You never understood what I was saying in the first place. I know DS started dragging the Multiverse before Cain met the Spectre. I never said otherwise. You're not stating anything that undermines my assertion. Take the time to read what I write instead of rushing to figure out some way to generalize or rebut what I'm saying. This is what I mean when I say it doesn't matter: "Cain commanding Spectre to speak the ALE and un-make creation and rebuild the world is not dispositive of Darkseid dragging down the Multiverse either with or without the ALE. If the Multiverse is being progressively dragged down, can the unmaking of creation or rebuilding of the world be hastened through the ALE (as interpreted by Morrison and I)? The obvious answer is yes."

This entire time you've been mistating my assertion because you didn't read it clearly enough. I never said Spectre was the only one speaking the ALE and un-making creation/rebuilding the world/warping reality. I never said if Spectre did it, then he did it first before the Multiverse started collpasing and that is the reason why it couldn't have been Darkseid's own power. That's what you've been erroneously mischaracterizing my assertion as. That's why I've been saying straw-man. The simple fact is this: Cain's and Spectre's on-panel words and actions support that the ALE is more than mind-control.
Incorrect. I specifically addressed the paragraph that starts with "However:"
Once again, you are not reading what I write. You gloss over it and completely mischaracterize it. I don't think you're doing it purposely, but that doesn't make your argumentation any less weak.
Don't act as if you've been stating that Darkseid did use the ALE in the cosmic war. You've consistently stated that "Darkseid could/might/maybe have used the ALE" in the cosmic war. It's obvious why you kept it open-ended like that, because you didn't even want to admit that Darkseid did use the ALE in the cosmic war. Just look at all your posts before:
And here you are, typing in all CAPS, essentially screaming like you've been saying that Darkseid did use the ALE in the war? No. That's what I've been saying. I've directly addressed your exact words and reasoning. And in turn, you actually resort to stealing my exact words and reasoning? And then you pound me over the head with my own reasoning like I haven't beenm listening? Outrageous. But let me continue addressing your exact words and reasoning nonetheless.

While the scan does not say exactly how Darkseid used the ALE in the war, what Grant Morrison says is unequivocally clear, "Darkseid's recent mastery of the Anti-Life Equation precipitated a disastrous war in heaven which resulted in the "death" of the New Gods and Darkseid's subsequent catastrophic fall into the material world." Look up what "precipitate" means. It doesn't mean "rain." It doesn't mean "precede" either. It means "abruptly caused." These are Grant Morrison's own words. Darkseid's recent mastery of the Anti-Life Equation abruptly caused the cosmic war which had two results: 1) killed the New Gods; and 2) caused Darkseid to die/fall through the Multiverse. So how can you possibly divorce what Darkseid does in Final Crisis from the ALE? Especially since the cosmic war itself broke time and space and spacetime crumpling = Multiverse being dragged?

Originally posted by Starscream M
that's not a combat feat

Huh....DS is a omniversal deity and for some reason his feats from FC are irrelevent because they are not combat orientated?

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Huh....DS is a omniversal deity and for some reason his feats from FC are irrelevent because they are not combat orientated?

There is like, no omniverse in DC. 😐

Originally posted by Bentley
There is like, no omniverse in DC. 😐

😮‍💨

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Huh....DS is a omniversal deity and for some reason his feats from FC are irrelevent because they are not combat orientated?

You just made up omniversal deity by the by.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What? Ds had the ale in fc and did nothing combat wise, so like current Thanos we go back to classic Seid.

You just made up omniversal deity by the by.

It's what his powerset implies...and the ALE only had a effect on his control over minds it isn't a amp.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
It's what his powerset implies...and the ALE only had a effect on his control over minds it isn't a amp.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The ale is an amp. If it wasn't then Ds wouldn't need the ale as it would be a part of his powerset.

Isn't the ALE his own creation and evidence of his superiority over the DCU, and he only needed it's power to completly negate the free will of God's creations...I don't know why ur thinking he used it to amplify his own power?

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Isn't the ALE his own creation and evidence of his superiority over the DCU, and he only needed it's power to completly negate the free will of God's creations...I don't know why ur thinking he used it to amplify his own power?

Grant Morrison, the writer and architect of FC spelled out what the ALE does. Mind control and proof that DS is the rightful ruler of existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Grant Morrison clearly and cleanly spelled out what the ALE is.

Now, you can continue to be stupid and argue against the writer. Or you can accept that the ALE had nothing to do with the singularity.

Once again, continue to be a troll if you want. But if you're dumb enough to argue against the main writer of the event and his interpretation/retcon, then you're on your own.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Grant Morrison, the writer and architect of FC spelled out what the ALE does. Mind control and proof that DS is the rightful ruler of existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Once again, continue to be a troll if you want. But if you're dumb enough to argue against the main writer of the event and his interpretation/retcon, then you're on your own.

Ps. Ds believes himself the rightful rules of existence, but that doesn't mean he really is.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Grant Morrison, the writer and architect of FC spelled out what the ALE does. Mind control and proof that DS is the rightful ruler of existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Once again, continue to be a troll if you want. But if you're dumb enough to argue against the main writer of the event and his interpretation/retcon, then you're on your own.

Let me ask you something Trick.. Have others used the ALE besides DS? If others have used it then it's not his alone to use and thus can be considered a powerup of sorts.

Second, the ALE was also used to re-make all of creation was that not stated on panel which sounds like a lot more then simply controlling people's minds. Wasn't it also stated it was used to win the war and that war caused damage to space and time did it not. Sounds like a lot more happened there then simple mind control.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, Ds found it and used it to achieve his goals.

Ps. Ds believes himself the rightful rules of existence, but that doesn't mean he really is.

So you>morrison?

Originally posted by The Great Galen
So you>morrison?

Point out what I said that contradicted what Morrison said there.