The nature of the ALE has been retconned.
Also, remake creation? DID YOU NOT READ THE PANEL TALKING FROM THE BOOK OF LILITH? About how the gift of the presence, Free will was being stolen away and thus Cain was taking away the thing that defines creation? Not to mention, Spectre did the work, not the ALE.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It is right there in his own words. It is funny that people are trying to misrepresent Morrison's words here while I remember Pak's words weren't worth a shit during the ww hulk arc.Point out what I said that contradicted what Morrison said there.
Where should I start lol.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestYou're right. It was retconned into something wider in scope than just mere mind control:
The nature of the ALE has been retconned.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0From comicfan11: Basically, there needs to be more correlation for you to prove that the ALE has something to do with Darkseid's folding spacetime. Either, time and space was initially broken as a direct consequence of using the ALE during the war, OR the ALE just plain breaks time and space outright. Well, the only survivor of the war is Motherboxxx, and as argued by kevdude above, its arguable one way or the other. If the ALE did something else on-panel other than enslave minds, you'd have a point. But it didn't, not clearly anyway enough in [i]Final Crisis: Revelations anyway. So what we have is the Anti-Life Equation clearly taking over minds and nothing else. And there is something to be said for the abundance of evidence that the Anti-Life Equation controls minds. So if it can't do more than that, how can you believe it actually collapses space and time?[/i]
^ continued[QUOTE=11555201]Originally posted by comicfan11
I don't know how to say it in a different way but THE ALE ENSLAVES FREE WILL.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
To comicfan11: Fine. Let's for a moment, consider that what Cain and Spectre speak of and do on-panel in Final Crisis: Revelations is, at best, debateable. Taking that off the board, arguably, I've presented nothing else but correlative evidence, e.g. Life Equation and Miracle Machine, what's the point of controlling minds if everything gets crushed, etc. Let's put that aside as well since it isn't positive evidence that the ALE can do anything else.
First off, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And having read Final Crisismore carefully, I present to you several scans:
... But first, a question, "Whent eh Flashes raced through Darkseid... where did all those Omega Finder Beams come from actually?" Darkseid never shot them at the Flashes and besides, there's a whole bunch of em:
Answer, all the innocent ALE-infected humans ("ALEers"😉that were surrounding Superman and Darkseid shot them out of their own eyes:
It's clear. The ALEers who are surrounding Superman talk with Darkseid's voice and ask him if Superman can outrace the Omega Sanction with their eyes glowing red. The Flashes burst onto the scene and the ALEers turn around and react to the light growing behind them. The next page shows the ALEers shooting the Omega Finder Beams at the passing Flashes. That's where they came from and because multiple ALEers shot them, that's why there are so many beams in the first place. It's right there in that panel. You an see it come from their eyes. The Anti-Life Equation doesn't just enslave minds. It can also give people powers. It makes sense after all. Like I told you from the start, Darkseid didn't just want to enslave their minds, he literally wanted their entire beings to become him. He wanted all of existence to become him. There's your proof, the ALE did more than just give Darkseid control over people's minds. As I've always thought, the ALE actually makes everything... Darkseid. Of course, I'm not done yet.......
Originally posted by AllanklesFrom Allankles: The true bottom-line is: whether or not the ALE is only mind-control or is more than that, there is no concrete proof that Darkseid used the ALE in some way to collapse time and space. And so what if you prove Darkseid can do other things with the ALE? It's still speculation that he used the ALE for collapsing time and space without proof!
Also the ALE only enslaves souls it doesn't rewrite or crumple space and time.
To Allankles: Fine. That'd be true. If not for this:
You see? When Mokkari released the Anti-Life Equation over the Internet at 5:30 PM EST, "That's when time, space... everything cracked." You wanted proof the ALE can break time and space? There you go. On-panel. And this is WELL before Darkseid finally crushed Turpin's spirit and manifested his true form on New Earth even. Reread it yourself. On-panel.[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by quanchi112Correct, as stated in Tricksterpriest's scan.
Yes, Ds found it and used it to achieve his goals.Ps. Ds believes himself the rightful rules of existence, but that doesn't mean he really is.
Ps. Also correct, according to Grant Morrison himself (interview from Newsarama):
NRAMA: Afterwards, Metron welcomes the Fifth World – the age of men as gods. Wasn’t the Fifth World Darkseid’s “World” and age?
GM: Sez Darkseid! Just as Hitler thought the future belonged to the Fuhrer and his glorious Thousand Year Reich, so does Darkseid overestimate his place in the Great Story.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Correct, as stated in Tricksterpriest's scan.
You're right. It was retconned into something wider in scope than just mere mind control:
[b]From comicfan11: Basically, there needs to be more correlation for you to prove that the ALE has something to do with Darkseid's folding spacetime. Either, time and space was initially broken as a direct consequence of using the ALE during the war, OR the ALE just plain breaks time and space outright. Well, the only survivor of the war is Motherboxxx, and as argued by kevdude above, its arguable one way or the other. If the ALE did something else on-panel other than enslave minds, you'd have a point. But it didn't, not clearly anyway enough in [i]Final Crisis: Revelations anyway. So what we have is the Anti-Life Equation clearly taking over minds and nothing else. And there is something to be said for the abundance of evidence that the Anti-Life Equation controls minds. So if it can't do more than that, how can you believe it actually collapses space and time?[/i]To comicfan11: Fine. Let's for a moment, consider that what Cain and Spectre speak of and do on-panel in Final Crisis: Revelations is, at best, debateable. Taking that off the board, arguably, I've presented nothing else but correlative evidence, e.g. Life Equation and Miracle Machine, what's the point of controlling minds if everything gets crushed, etc. Let's put that aside as well since it isn't positive evidence that the ALE can do anything else.
First off, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And having read Final Crisismore carefully, I present to you several scans:
... But first, a question, "Whent eh Flashes raced through Darkseid... where did all those Omega Finder Beams come from actually?" Darkseid never shot them at the Flashes and besides, there's a whole bunch of em:
Answer, all the innocent ALE-infected humans ("ALEers"😉that were surrounding Superman and Darkseid shot them out of their own eyes:
It's clear. The ALEers who are surrounding Superman talk with Darkseid's voice and ask him if Superman can outrace the Omega Sanction with their eyes glowing red. The Flashes burst onto the scene and the ALEers turn around and react to the light growing behind them. The next page shows the ALEers shooting the Omega Finder Beams at the passing Flashes. That's where they came from and because multiple ALEers shot them, that's why there are so many beams in the first place. It's right there in that panel. You an see it come from their eyes. The Anti-Life Equation doesn't just enslave minds. It can also give people powers. It makes sense after all. Like I told you from the start, Darkseid didn't just want to enslave their minds, he literally wanted their entire beings to become him. He wanted all of existence to become him. There's your proof, the ALE did more than just give Darkseid control over people's minds. As I've always thought, the ALE actually makes everything... Darkseid. Of course, I'm not done yet.......
From Allankles: The true bottom-line is: whether or not the ALE is only mind-control or is more than that, there is no concrete proof that Darkseid used the ALE in some way to collapse time and space. And so what if you prove Darkseid can do other things with the ALE? It's still speculation that he used the ALE for collapsing time and space without proof!To Allankles: Fine. That'd be true. If not for this:
You see? When Mokkari released the Anti-Life Equation over the Internet at 5:30 PM EST, "That's when time, space... everything cracked." You wanted proof the ALE can break time and space? There you go. On-panel. And this is WELL before Darkseid finally crushed Turpin's spirit and manifested his true form on New Earth even. Reread it yourself. On-panel.[/B]
Ps. Also correct, according to Grant Morrison himself (interview from Newsarama):
NRAMA: Afterwards, Metron welcomes the Fifth World – the age of men as gods. Wasn’t the Fifth World Darkseid’s “World” and age?
GM: Sez Darkseid! Just as Hitler thought the future belonged to the Fuhrer and his glorious Thousand Year Reich, so does Darkseid overestimate his place in the Great Story. [/B][/QUOTE] Anyone who believed Ds is the rightful ruler of creation clearly lacked the understanding of the scan put up. Glad you put up Gm's response here to calm down the Ds faction.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You see? When Mokkari released the Anti-Life Equation over the Internet at 5:30 PM EST, "That's when [b]time, space... everything cracked." You wanted proof the ALE can break time and space? There you go. On-panel. And this is WELL before Darkseid finally crushed Turpin's spirit and manifested his true form on New Earth even. Reread it yourself. On-panel.[/B]
Yes we've already been over this. DS falling, dragging the multiverse down to his hell, the war breaking space and time.
The ALE affecting technology and being turned into a techno god weapon. All of these things are seperated but connected by DS' plan.
You mention Miracle talking about the war then you talk about the ALE, but none of those things refer to anything related to the destructive energies DS was releasing. The Singularity was DS presence, his personal hell spreading out to the universe.
In FC5 the moment DS manifests fully in Turpin's body, the Guardians state that "[time and space just crampled around Earth, like they had been crashed by a fist]".
Final Crisis is infinitely better than Secret Invasion. But......you have to read Seven Soldiers, quite a few new god books, and probably all the tie ins to FC.
Fortunately, Grant provided a read order and there aren't that many books.
* Final Crisis #1-3
* Superman Beyond #1-2
* "Submit"
* Final Crisis #4–5
* Batman #682–683
* Final Crisis #6–7
They missed Resist, which should be in the same area as Submit.
the other tie ins.
* Batman #682-683[29]
* "DC Universe" #0
* "DC Universe: Last Will and Testament"[27]
* Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds #1-5[13]
* "Final Crisis: Rage of the Red Lanterns" (one-shot)[30][12]
* "Final Crisis: Requiem" (one-shot)[10]
* "Final Crisis: Resist" (one-shot)[11]
* Final Crisis: Revelations #1-5[14]
* Final Crisis: Rogues' Revenge #1-3[15]
* "Final Crisis: Secret Files" (one-shot)
* "Final Crisis: Sketchbook" (one-shot)
* "Final Crisis: Submit" (one-shot)
* Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1-2
* Justice League of America (vol. 2) #21
Not all necessary. Recommend Rogues, Last will and start with DCU #0.
Originally posted by Darkness_WithinSi sucked imo, but from what most have said fc did as well. I will probably like fc more in the end because its a huge cosmic storyline while si mainly dealt with marvel earth.
sooooooooooooooo yeah i havent read final crisis? WHY? OCD probs so did it suck or not? Cause secret invasion was a flop in my opinion
