OneDumbG0
Find Your Own Fire
Originally posted by Allankles
Damn. Onedumbgo ease up on the ALE argument. I'd suggest you pick up the Orion series and other NG related comics dealing with the ALE. A lot of your arguments are not dealing with anything that hasn't already been established. With the ALE the user can make the victim do anything which extends to what we saw in FC 7.
Fangirl101 and several of you already told me that prior comics history is an unreliable means to assess the scope of Darkseid's or the ALE's power. I already addressed that. In fact, prior history like
Cosmic Odyssey, which was referenced in
Final Crisis: Secret Files, would be very supportive. But I won't use it against you. We all agree that
Final Crisis was presented in such a way that it would shatter our preconceptions. Don't be selective in what history you use or you're using double-standards.
Originally posted by Allankles
As far as space-time is concerned again read FC 5 for the proof. When DS manifested in FC 5 the guardian's state and I quote: "spacetime just [folded] around earth like it had been crushed with a fist."Of course they also mentioned that it was DS' destructive energies fueling the singularity.
I agree. That fact is not dispositive of the ALE cracking time and space and everything the instant it was released via the Internet. Darkseid when manifested, used the ALE to crush the cracked remnants of time and space and begin its accelerated collapse.
"Destructive emanations." That could very well refer to the ALE. Same as when Doom acquires Beyonder's power, but they refer to his actions as "Doom's power is unimaginable now!" when in fact, they mean his gaining of Beyonder's power made him unstoppable. You're identifying two separate premises and not recognizing that it can be equally argued the other way.
Originally posted by Allankles
As I said we've all read the comics and the ALE is never attributed to the singularity only darkseid's destructive presence dragging the universe along because he decided to bring all into his hell. falling through reality he decided to bring everything along with him to create a new existence.
Ok. But I am posting a scan, that is completely irrespective of Darkseid's full manifestation, and time and space and everything crack. You yourself have suggested that Darkseid's use of a singularity, etc. did not occur until he fully manifested after crushing Turpin's spirit. So while Darkseid may have bring all to hell by crushing time and space, it's unequivocally clear that the ALE, on it's own, can affect time and space.
There's the remote possibility that even though the ALE was used to crack time and space, Darkseid could have used his own personal power to generate the singularity and crush time and space. But I mean seriously... once he gained mastery, he killed the New Gods, Mokkari releases it and it cracks time and space, and you really think that it's plausible that Darkseid didn't use the ALE at all to accomplish his feats?
Originally posted by kevdude
I do agree as well. The ALE only takes away free will and proves DS is the ruler, if it was ANYTHING ELSE (pay attention please) it would have been in Secret Files and noted that it cracks space and time, it did NOT do that in DTNG or FC!!!
So you're using, what essentially is a handbook over a clearly unequivocal on-panel reference. Not only that, but the handbook states that the ALE took on a persona and is an ultimate concept that can't truly be fathomed, etc. etc. Some of the handbook references clearly support my views that the ALE is more than mind-control. Not only that, you're engaging in the same double-standards over prior history. Do yuo or do you want me to use prior history? Because I'll tell you, prior history clearly supports my view that the ALE is more than just mere mind-control.
Originally posted by kevdude
The only scan that I have ever seen that can even give them backing to ALE= cracking time/space is the first part of 4 and if that's all of the story then anyone would think so but its not! Oracle with the hero's at the JLA base and tells the group "They've Wounded our people, our minds, our planet in ways we can barely Imagine. We're disoriented, out of our depth and whatever we Think this appears to be, its Worse". She then says "its a mathematical Proof that Darkseid is the rightful master of Everything in existence". That proves it does not break time and space like some believe, it is a equation that does what she says, that's all. If it was anything else the ALE would have started to break stuff down when it was already there being USED on ppl and it did not!! I believe she saw Darkseid finally manifesting before her eyes, like what we saw in 5 with the rest of the ppl, and the next time we see Turpin is in 4 right after a few pages and Simyan and Mokkari have him in the chair and Darkseid is beginning his ascension to the Multiverse 😎
Pretty sure it's Ray talking in the panel. Oracle talks to the group afterwards. don't have the issue in front of me, but that was my take. And what Oracle says actually, once again, supports my view and contradicts yours. You say she's only referring to Darkseid's mastery over people and harming people. She also says the ALE wounded the planet in ways we can't imagine. Now... if it was all about mind-control, that's pretty well within the imagination of someone as smart as Oracle. But wounding the planet in ways we can barely imagine? That sounds a lot more than just mind-control.
Like I said, her statements, taken in isolation, may not completely support Ray's statements, but they clearly undermine your arguments that the ALE only allows its wielder to control minds. You have to take the sentence as a whole. And doing so undermines your view. Not only that, Darkseid clearly is able to use the ALE to make everyone literally his body, so much so, that ordinary humans can shoot Omega Finder Beams from their eyes:
Seriously. How are you explaining away this? They be shootin OE from their eyes! The ALE offers more than mind-control. It literally can make existence into you. It was making existence into Darkseid. From controlling people's minds, to cracking time and space, to making people's bodies an actual extension of him. This espansive scope on the ALE clearly is in harmony with the "breaking preconceptions" theme of Final Crisis as a whole.
You guys are so recalcitrant when it comes to this. Why can't you accept the strong possibility, based on on-panel proof, that the ALE is more than just mind-control? Because the ALE in prior stories was specifically mind-control? Yeah, well in prior stories Darkseid didn't have Multiversal power. And in prior stories, the ALE was more than just mind-control. What is it with you guys? I'm not even angry, just stunned that you won't let it go.
