Well for one since Dragnball theyve been moving so fast that people couldnt see them, then they get to the point where more powerful people cant see them, as they all improve, no1 saw goku move agaisnt burter and jeice, not even vegeta after he had improved since his and gokus fight, you need to re watch DBZ alot of the time they just dissapear and all you can see is shockwaves...
To crush your argument that no one normal or human can see them fight.
Hercule watches the Buus fight.
YouTube video
Bulma watches Vegeta and Zarbon.
YouTube video
Even Dende, a non fighting Namek with no combat experience at all watched Frieza and even saw the blast coming that killed him.
at 2:30 Hercule dodges Kid Buu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu1Yc4RDOeI&feature=PlayList&p=661C246EBAD409B1&playnext=1&index=42
Originally posted by Alan Kyder
My bad, I didn't read the 1st part of the thread, I thought he was takin'im at once.
No if this was regular old Kenshiro then this would be a stomp in their favor, but I genuinely think that amplifying HSK by 20 times gives him the ability to win. He has already been shown lifting over 1000 tons and destroying a tank without a weapon or blast. He has already been shown surviving a grenade to the face with no pain, having tons of rocks fall of him with no bleeding or scars, a speeding train ran into him with no pain or flinching, the guy even fought while in a coma.
Sure there are moments when normal people see the Z Fighters fight. But there are also moments when people see Ken fight also. And Ken seeing Han move doesn't mean he'll be able to see the androids. He was able to fight Han evenly of course he'd see him move.
And Mr. Satan never dodged Kid Buu. Fat Buu stopped Kid Buu from hitting Satan. That's why Fat Buu is spit out. And then before Kid Buu can attack Fat Buu saves him.
Also to mention most of the times that the Z fighters are seen fighting they aren't going all out because it's a tournament. All the Z Fighters were barely able to follow Cell and Gokou and they have higher reaction times than normal. The only time people seen them is when they were fighting in one place or blasting. Just like when Gokou got to Namek nobody could see him move at all. And against Krillen nobody could even see Gokou except Tien with his third eye because he was moving so fast and he was only 15 and vastly weaker than what he becomes. The more ki the more speed a person has. The amp may be unknown sure but 15 year old Gokou isn't going to be able to blitz 7 year old ssj Goten just because we seen 15 year old Gokou disappear from view while most of Goten and Trunks fight seemed to be seen. Mostly because they were both holding back. Radditz has blitzed both Gokou and Piccolo iirc. Gokou was able to punch faster than anybody but Tien could see also in the tournament Tien shows up in. To think he can't do that when he's 30 and vastly superior in skill and power is insane. He did it at least twice during that tournament. The only reason they knew he punched is because he held the stance and the person flew back so they assumed it was once when it was more.
Originally posted by Kento
Sure there are moments when normal people see the Z Fighters fight. But there are also moments when people see Ken fight also. And Ken seeing Han move doesn't mean he'll be able to see the androids. He was able to fight Han evenly of course he'd see him move.
There were like only a FEW times when normal humans see Kenshiro move. Most of the times when he hit a pressure point, he's hardly ever seen.
Originally posted by Kento
And Mr. Satan never dodged Kid Buu. Fat Buu stopped Kid Buu from hitting Satan. That's why Fat Buu is spit out. And then before Kid Buu can attack Fat Buu saves him.Also to mention most of the times that the Z fighters are seen fighting they aren't going all out because it's a tournament. All the Z Fighters were barely able to follow Cell and Gokou and they have higher reaction times than normal. The only time people seen them is when they were fighting in one place or blasting. Just like when Gokou got to Namek nobody could see him move at all. And against Krillen nobody could even see Gokou except Tien with his third eye because he was moving so fast and he was only 15 and vastly weaker than what he becomes. The more ki the more speed a person has. The amp may be unknown sure but 15 year old Gokou isn't going to be able to blitz 7 year old ssj Goten just because we seen 15 year old Gokou disappear from view while most of Goten and Trunks fight seemed to be seen. Mostly because they were both holding back. Radditz has blitzed both Gokou and Piccolo iirc. Gokou was able to punch faster than anybody but Tien could see also in the tournament Tien shows up in. To think he can't do that when he's 30 and vastly superior in skill and power is insane. He did it at least twice during that tournament. The only reason they knew he punched is because he held the stance and the person flew back so they assumed it was once when it was more.
It would make sense to think that a 15 year old Goku can't blitz a 7 year old SSJ Goten but at the same time, we can't base that on actual feats either. As you said, he, along with Trunks, were just holding back so we don't know the full extent of his abilities. Plus, you also gotta keep in mind that just because he's a SSJ doesn't mean you can apply all of SSJ Goku and Vegeta's feats to him as each of them all got a certain level in their SSJ forms.
Originally posted by SmashBroAnd there are only a few times normal people see the Z Fighters. When they were much weaker or when they have held back.
There were like only a FEW times when normal humans see Kenshiro move. Most of the times when he hit a pressure point, he's hardly ever seen.It would make sense to think that a 15 year old Goku can't blitz a 7 year old SSJ Goten but at the same time, we can't base that on actual feats either. As you said, he, along with Trunks, were just holding back so we don't know the full extent of his abilities. Plus, you also gotta keep in mind that just because he's a SSJ doesn't mean you can apply all of SSJ Goku and Vegeta's feats to him as each of them all got a certain level in their SSJ forms.
Speed and power you can apply to Goten. Goten just has no skill but he's still just as powerful as Android Saga Vegeta at the very least. Weaker physically sure but just as fast and powerful. Anybody who is more powerful than Buu is going to be able to one-shot a planet without the chain reaction Namek had, and if you count Bardock movie as canon, the chain reaction Vegeta had. Which would include SSJ3 Gokou, and Mystic Gohan, not counting fusions. Because they have the same exact power. Trunks may have had to go ssj to move around in 100x earth gravity but that's because he's weaker physically than Gokou in the Namek Saga but he had the speed to actually land a hit on Vegeta and to take a hit from Vegeta who reacted on reflex though Vegeta wasn't at full power and Trunks was. Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun fire like it was nothing. 15 year old Gokou would be able to do that same thing yet the only other person we see do that is Gohan iirc when he was Great Saiyaman. Does that mean that GSM Gohan is only as fast as Roshi since Gohan doesn't really have any speed feats except that and blitzing the Cell Jr's? And because Gohan did it but Gokou or Vegeta haven't does that mean they can't even though they are more powerful in the Buu Saga than Gohan was when he did it? It's all power scaling. It's like Superman and any other Kryptonian that is weaker. Whatever they have done Superman could do the same thing while the reverse wouldn't be true.
Didn't somebody earlier say Cell Jr's only fought weakened people and did nothing impressive? Cell Jr's never fought weakened people. They were beating up on people who didn't even fight Cell and were perfectly fine, and Gohan blitzed them easily at ssj2, and punched right through them.
Originally posted by Kento
And there are only a few times normal people see the Z Fighters. When they were much weaker or when they have held back.
Depending on how weak they were.
Originally posted by Kento
Speed and power you can apply to Goten. Goten just has no skill but he's still just as powerful as Android Saga Vegeta at the very least. Weaker physically sure but just as fast and powerful. Anybody who is more powerful than Buu is going to be able to one-shot a planet without the chain reaction Namek had, and if you count Bardock movie as canon, the chain reaction Vegeta had. Which would include SSJ3 Gokou, and Mystic Gohan, not counting fusions. Because they have the same exact power. Trunks may have had to go ssj to move around in 100x earth gravity but that's because he's weaker physically than Gokou in the Namek Saga but he had the speed to actually land a hit on Vegeta and to take a hit from Vegeta who reacted on reflex though Vegeta wasn't at full power and Trunks was. Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun fire like it was nothing. 15 year old Gokou would be able to do that same thing yet the only other person we see do that is Gohan iirc when he was Great Saiyaman. Does that mean that GSM Gohan is only as fast as Roshi since Gohan doesn't really have any speed feats except that and blitzing the Cell Jr's? And because Gohan did it but Gokou or Vegeta haven't does that mean they can't even though they are more powerful in the Buu Saga than Gohan was when he did it? It's all power scaling. It's like Superman and any other Kryptonian that is weaker. Whatever they have done Superman could do the same thing while the reverse wouldn't be true.
Except there's a key difference there: all Kryptionians have the same abilities, unlike the Saiyans and anyone else in DBZ.
As for the other things you said, if they show speed that requires to do such things such as catch bullets or did something similar, yeah that would show that they could but that still not an excuse to say they're "faster" when they haven't done anything that shows it or that it was said by someone else. Plus you also gotta remember that power levels don't equal speed (like USSJ Vegeta and Trunks for example) or stamina (like SSJ3 Goku, which was after the Androids saga). Not saying that you said the latter but that's just an example.
Originally posted by Kento
Didn't somebody earlier say Cell Jr's only fought weakened people and did nothing impressive? Cell Jr's never fought weakened people. They were beating up on people who didn't even fight Cell and were perfectly fine, and Gohan blitzed them easily at ssj2, and punched right through them.
So what's so impressive? And I said they took out the "weaker" fighters, not weakened. Goku was the only one weakened but still, all of that wasn't really impresssive.
Originally posted by SmashBroEverybody in DB has the same abilities. There power source is the exact same. The only difference is the attacks used. It's not like they can only use there attacks and the others are unusable. Everybody stealing Solar Flare, and flight prove that. Or Tien being able to see a move done once and being able to replicate it twice as powerful. They were all just trained in different fighting styles so learned different attacks. The only difference between Humans and Saiyans is durability and that saiyans are more powerful in general. Power level does equal speed though. Trunks amped his strength loosing speed which means they could amp strength but they don't. You never see a weaker character blitz a more powerful character ever in DB. Piccolo was beaten effortlessly by 17 and when he increases his ki by fusing with Kami they are equal. Ki has always be a speed amp. Strength also but speed was always the major thing that amped because they always train with things that amp it. Gravity, weights, and all that stuff. F. Trunks was the only time the speed and power were not together. Though I never understood Gokou's stamina thing because both Kid Buu and Gohan were more powerful but could control their energy. Unless it's just because it was a ssj transformation while the other two was regular levels.
Depending on how weak they were.Except there's a key difference there: all Kryptionians have the same abilities, unlike the Saiyans and anyone else in DBZ.
As for the other things you said, if they show speed that requires to do such things such as catch bullets or did something similar, yeah that would show that they could but that still not an excuse to say they're "faster" when they haven't done anything that shows it or that it was said by someone else. Plus you also gotta remember that power levels don't equal speed (like USSJ Vegeta and Trunks for example) or stamina (like SSJ3 Goku, which was after the Androids saga). Not saying that you said the latter but that's just an example.
So what's so impressive? And I said they took out the "weaker" fighters, not weakened. Goku was the only one weakened but still, all of that wasn't really impresssive.
All the human characters have their own incredible speed feats in DB when they were weaker and were blitzed by the Cell Jr's only to be in turn blitzed by Gohan. And Vegeta and Trunks are faster than any of the humans and still unable to defend themselves.
Originally posted by Kento
Everybody in DB has the same abilities. There power source is the exact same. The only difference is the attacks used. It's not like they can only use there attacks and the others are unusable. Everybody stealing Solar Flare, and flight prove that. Or Tien being able to see a move done once and being able to replicate it twice as powerful. They were all just trained in different fighting styles so learned different attacks. The only difference between Humans and Saiyans is durability and that saiyans are more powerful in general. Power level does equal speed though. Trunks amped his strength loosing speed which means they could amp strength but they don't. You never see a weaker character blitz a more powerful character ever in DB. Piccolo was beaten effortlessly by 17 and when he increases his ki by fusing with Kami they are equal. Ki has always be a speed amp. Strength also but speed was always the major thing that amped because they always train with things that amp it. Gravity, weights, and all that stuff. F. Trunks was the only time the speed and power were not together. Though I never understood Gokou's stamina thing because both Kid Buu and Gohan were more powerful but could control their energy. Unless it's just because it was a ssj transformation while the other two was regular levels.
Everyone didn't steal Solar Flare or flight. They had to be taught how to do those, just like they had to be taught how to do the other techniques. Not everybody can just copy attacks. The point about Trunks is that despite having a higher ki level than what was previously shown, he was still pretty slow. Same also went for Cell, who used a similar ability. If ki=speed, then such a situation wouldn't have happened. That's exactly why they do have to train with the heavy gravity and weights. Just ki alone won't cut it.
Originally posted by Kento
All the human characters have their own incredible speed feats in DB when they were weaker and were blitzed by the Cell Jr's only to be in turn blitzed by Gohan. And Vegeta and Trunks are faster than any of the humans and still unable to defend themselves.
None of them displayed any type of speed that they previously showed. That and they weren't really prepared for this in the first place.
Originally posted by SmashBroJust like you have are taught a style. It's within all their powersets to do the same thing. They just use different attacks because they were taught them by their masters, or in Vegeta's (and probably Future Trunks) case created their own ki attacks. It's because they bulked up. Not one other case has been like that. Every amp of ki has always been speed. Vegeta was owned easily by Zarbon. Him being beaten and healed amped his ki and was able to in return own Zarbon. Gohan got angry during the Radditz part of the Saiyan Saga and his ki skyrocketed and he was able to hit Radditz who was owning Piccolo and Gokou in speed. Gokou went from being Ginyu's level before getting hurt to being able to keep up with Freeza after healing and his ki amp from that no training at all. Vegeta went from loosing to Recoome to fighting Jeice evenly who was even faster than Recoome. Then there is also Piccolo fusing with Kami. That ki amp from being beaten effortlessly to being able to keep up with 17 without any training just a ki amp. Out of all the times ki amping has equaled speed amping twice by people who just bulked up to get strong doesn't negate that ki does equal speed. While how much faster is unknown I think it's safe to say their speed increases at least half of what their power increases. At the very least since they go from being blitzed to being able to blitz after getting more powerful.
Everyone didn't steal Solar Flare or flight. They had to be taught how to do those, just like they had to be taught how to do the other techniques. Not everybody can just copy attacks. The point about Trunks is that despite having a higher ki level than what was previously shown, he was still pretty slow. Same also went for Cell, who used a similar ability. If ki=speed, then such a situation wouldn't have happened. That's exactly why they do have to train with the heavy gravity and weights. Just ki alone won't cut it.None of them displayed any type of speed that they previously showed. That and they weren't really prepared for this in the first place.