Kenshiro (With upgrade) vs Android 17 and 18

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Ken gets Kaio Ken times 20 here and what is stopping Kenshiro from cutting the androids into pieces?

True they have limitless stamina but Kenshiro has more than enough stamina to stay in this fight and win. Toki was able to survive a nuclear holocaust for two weeks without food water or shelter.

Gohan didn't have training in Hokuto Shinken.

Whats stopping Ken from doing anything to the Androids is speed. They have easily more than enough speed to keep away from him and they can do it forever as they will never run out of energy or tire. And the fact that they can and will beat him senseless.

Kaio Ken should give him the speed boost needed and MT and his already insane durability should help keep them from beating him senseless.

Kaioken would NOT give him the speed to do anything at all. MT would only save him from being hit...but would be useless to actually hit them. And the fact he still doesn't have time to activate it before they would beat him senseless means he gets beaten. There is nothing putting him on the level of anything past saiyan saga if even that. And 20x that speed isn't going to help.

I still can't say that. Ken's done way more faster things than the Saiyan Saga and with the many kind of speed feats he has, he definitely can tag the Androids with the Muso Tensei. None of their speed feats are comparable to Ken's.

Except Kenshiro's speed feats are pretty much on par with DB speed feats, and the androids have proven themselves above them by being above the people who did said speed feats who themselves in Z have shown that they get faster as they get stronger.

And yet hardly any of them have shown how much faster they are since DB and the Androids lack any speed feats of their own.

Except Radditz was able to blitz them like they were nothing even after all their speed feats in DB. And then Gokou went from having to use Kaiokenx3 to blitz Vegeta to being able to move so fast Vegeta couldn't even see him moving at all. Vegeta then went from being blitzed easily by Recoome to fighting Freeza's first form. The fact that they get faster each time they get more powerful and they've gotten millions of times more powerful literally and the villains of the time are still able to easily beat them before some power-up or something shows they have gotten a whole lot faster. More than 20x...Gokou wasn't barley able to keep up with half power Freeza using 20xKaioken, and was still on the beating end.

Except that Raditz's own speed feats weren't any more impressive than theirs and that even weaker fighters have been able to tag stronger ones. Plus, I don't recall them literally being millions of times stronger.

I don't really get the appeal of this thread.

"Would Kenshiro beat 17 and 18 if he was stronger?"

Kinda defeats the purpose of a vs thread.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Except that Raditz's own speed feats weren't any more impressive than theirs and that even weaker fighters have been able to tag stronger ones. Plus, I don't recall them literally being millions of times stronger.

Gokou and Piccolos power when Radditz came were like what 400 at most. SSJ Gokous against Freeze was like 120 million or 150 Million.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea weaker fighters have..When the villain get cocky. Like Radditz against Gokou and Piccolo. Yet he's still able to blitz them easily. The fact that he can blitz them with their speed feats they had means he was faster speed feats or not.

That doesn't mean his own speed feats were faster than theirs. And villains weren't cocky all the time when they got hit.

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou and Piccolos power when Radditz came were like what 400 at most. SSJ Gokous against Freeze was like 120 million or 150 Million.

Is this based on power levels? Because those are kind of inconsistent.

Originally posted by SmashBro
That doesn't mean his own speed feats were faster than theirs. And villains weren't cocky all the time when they got hit.

Is this based on power levels? Because those are kind of inconsistent.

Never said they got millions of times faster. Though it's safe to say they've gotten at least hundreds of times faster as SSJ is 50x multiplier of their speed, and power. I just said they got millions of times stronger..which they have. Power level = their power.

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta was weakened when he was hit by weaker being, or Gokou had to amp his power 3x with Kaoikenx3. Radditz was cocky and tricked. Fat Buu wasn't paying attention. Cell was caught of guard by a large attack each time he was hit. 18 fooled around with Vegeta. And Nappa was ganged up on, and tricked. So there was always some kinda circumstance where a weaker being was able to hit a stronger, faster one. And it's mostly because they didn't know they were around or because they got to cocky.

What about Goku's fight with Ginyu? And with Freiza? Also, Raditz wasn't cocky or tricked when Gohan hit him. He was well aware of what was going on.

Originally posted by Kento
Never said they got millions of times faster. Though it's safe to say they've gotten at least hundreds of times faster as SSJ is 50x multiplier of their speed, and power. I just said they got millions of times stronger..which they have. Power level = their power.

In terms of ki power?

Originally posted by SmashBro
What about Goku's fight with Ginyu? And with Freiza? Also, Raditz wasn't cocky or tricked when Gohan hit him. He was well aware of what was going on.

In terms of ki power?

Yea. And just like Kaioken amps speed and everything, SSJ does it to a higher degree and does it without the strain on the body. Until ssj3 comes along apparently.

Originally posted by Kento
Ginyu and Gokou were about the same level, and the fight stopped after Gokou powered up fully. And Freeza was cocky and holding back power, and Gokou was amping himself with Kaioken, and he also used some tricks during that fight. And Gohan was above Radditz in power.

Freeza was cocky but was still ahead of Goku. And seeing that so many fights involve both fighters fighting at the same speed, it just shows that they aren't THAT much faster than their opponents.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea. And just like Kaioken amps speed and everything, SSJ does it to a higher degree and does it without the strain on the body. Until ssj3 comes along apparently.

I still can't necessarily say that they got "millions of times stronger". Just sounds like speculation to me.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Freeza was cocky but was still ahead of Goku. And seeing that so many fights involve both fighters fighting at the same speed, it just shows that they aren't THAT much faster than their opponents.

I still can't necessarily say that they got "millions of times stronger". Just sounds like speculation to me.

Weaker people can fight at the speed of stronger but only if they aren't much weaker. That's like saying Freeza wouldn't be blitzed by Cell. Or ssj2 Gohan would fight evenly with ssj Freeza Saga Gokou. It just wouldn't happen. Any time there is people fighting the same level there is a circumstance or the two people are close in power.

Originally posted by Kento
Not by much he wasn't. At least not by how much Gokou was amping his speed and how much Freeza was holding back. And no matter how fast you are you can't dodge something you don't see coming like what Gokou did to Freeza and coming up out of the water from far away, and using ki blasts to distract Freeza into thinking he was coming up from under him.

Weaker people can fight at the speed of stronger but only if they aren't much weaker. That's like saying Freeza wouldn't be blitzed by Cell. Or ssj2 Gohan would fight evenly with ssj Freeza Saga Gokou. It just wouldn't happen. Any time there is people fighting the same level there is a circumstance or the two people are close in power.

You sometimes gotta look at what kind of advantages and disadvantages they have. Speed isn't always the reason why they win. It could be strength or skills or firepower or simply another transformation.

Originally posted by SmashBro
You sometimes gotta look at what kind of advantages and disadvantages they have. Speed isn't always the reason why they win. It could be strength or skills or firepower or simply another transformation.

Since DB who has ever won because skill? And since Radditz who has won by firepower alone? Even at end of DB people were weight training and winning because of speed. Z is pretty basic. Higher power level = higher power, strength, and speed. With one exception Future Trunks who specifically sacrificed speed for strength.

Originally posted by Kento
Another transformation is usually why someone wins. But said thing boosts power and speed.

Since DB who has ever won because skill? And since Radditz who has won by firepower alone? Even at end of DB people were weight training and winning because of speed. Z is pretty basic. Higher power level = higher power, strength, and speed. With one exception Future Trunks who specifically sacrificed speed for strength.

Usually in DBZ fights, they start off as though they're fighting evenly until one of them gain the upperhand. That doesn't mean one was faster than the other. That could either be skill or the other person simply getting tired (as shown in Vegeta's fight with 18). As for the firepower, they usually either have an energy beam struggle or just a specific type of energy beam that eventually weakens or outright destroy their opponent, which is again, different from speed.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Usually in DBZ fights, they start off as though they're fighting evenly until one of them gain the upperhand. That doesn't mean one was faster than the other. That could either be skill or the other person simply getting tired (as shown in Vegeta's fight with 18). As for the firepower, they usually either have an energy beam struggle or just a specific type of energy beam that eventually weakens or outright destroy their opponent, which is again, different from speed.