Originally posted by Nihilist
did he say he was doing it through his presance or his power was bringing down the multiverse.
As in DS was falling, the wound Orion gave him left a black hole where his heart used to be.
Basically DS was bringing the house down with him, so that he could conquer the multiverse with the ALE.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You're all delusional. The goddamn author comes out in a interview and says "Yes, it was Darkseid. He was bringing down the multiverse."WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?! 🤨
Nobody is saying anything about him bringing down the multiverse. Clearly that is what Morrison was trying to convey. However, that goes directly to some of his doing (power) but a lot of his importance and presence in reality and when he dies it causes a whole bunch of f-ed up sh1t. FC is quite clear that the war, the ale (powerup of sorts) and him dying all caused the falling (not his doing or power) and then he ran with it and saw and opportunity to drag everybody down with him. However, what caused and started it all was nothing about his powerset in the least
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nobody is saying anything about him bringing down the multiverse. Clearly that is what Morrison was trying to convey. However, that goes directly to some of his doing (power) but a lot of his importance and presence in reality and when he dies it causes a whole bunch of f-ed up sh1t. FC is quite clear that the war, the ale (powerup of sorts) and him dying all caused the falling (not his doing or power) and then he ran with it and saw and opportunity to drag everybody down with him. However, what caused and started it all was nothing about his powerset in the least
Darkseid did win, for everything that was up against him he did very good. The war caused his falling into the Multiverse which could not support him, don't know why your bringing up the war and ale causing it to collapse, that's not what happened.. The only thing he was unprepared for and you can't blame him for this is Barry returning to life and helping Wally, if that did not happen he would have continued to consume everything until it was his. DS knew Batman was there the whole time but didn't care cause nothing Bats could do would hurt him (save Barry role). His mad conquest seems to had driven him insane and he couldn't help himself anymore to continue much like what Morrison said about his liking to Hitler..
Originally posted by kevdude
Darkseid did win, for everything that was up against him he did very good. The war caused his falling into the Multiverse which could not support him, don't know why your bringing up the war and ale causing it to collapse, that's not what happened.. The only thing he was unprepared for and you can't blame him for this is Barry returning to life and helping Wally, if that did not happen he would have continued to consume everything until it was his. DS knew Batman was there the whole time but didn't care cause nothing Bats could do would hurt him (save Barry role). His mad conquest seems to had driven him insane and he couldn't help himself anymore to continue much like what Morrison said about his liking to Hitler..
It useless to explain when people doesn't really understand the whole premises of the story.
Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.
The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.
That along with the war and him falling were also not something he caused and also caused chain reactions but wasn't his powerset doing so.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.
That summary was beautiful and every point you made is backed by on panel statements or actions or Morrison himself. My question is: why did it take you 10 pages in another thread to say exactly that? 😂
Except that Grant Morrison said it was Darkseid.
NRAMA: The Batman/Darkseid scene – what does the death of Darkseid do to the world?
GM: See Final Crisis #7. Darkseid is falling down through the Multiversal structure into a black hole at the centre of Creation, breaking things and disrupting continuities as he goes.
NRAMA: Superman and Darkseid - for those of us who didn't attend night classes on New Genesis...despite being shot through the heart, Darkseid is still alive, he's taking aim at Orion to basically start the whole story, and the Flashes lead the Black racer to him...and that kills him? I feel a little slow here, but when did he start falling through the multiverses?
GM: Again, I don’t think you need to know anything about New Genesis or any other information apart from what’s in the story. Darkseid wasn’t shot in the heart. We all know Batman doesn’t kill people, hasn’t killed people for 70 years and isn’t about to start here. It’s a big enough deal for Batman to pick up a gun. He winged Turpin knowing that the Radion in the bullet would be enough to poison Darkseid’s divine essence. Radion only kills gods after all. It slays ideas. After that shot, Darkseid is dying, just as someone with radiation poisoning might slowly expire, as Superman explains in #7. The Black Racer drags him struggling away into oblivion over the course of that issue until nothing remains but the fading, ghost-echoes of his malice.
Darkseid started falling through the universe after the event we experienced as The Death of The New Gods. He fell backwards through time and wound up in a human body, on Earth, in the Mister Miracle series back in 2005.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Except that Grant Morrison said it was Darkseid.NRAMA: The Batman/Darkseid scene – what does the death of Darkseid do to the world?
GM: See Final Crisis #7. Darkseid is falling down through the Multiversal structure into a black hole at the centre of Creation, breaking things and disrupting continuities as he goes.
NRAMA: Superman and Darkseid - for those of us who didn't attend night classes on New Genesis...despite being shot through the heart, Darkseid is still alive, he's taking aim at Orion to basically start the whole story, and the Flashes lead the Black racer to him...and that kills him? I feel a little slow here, but when did he start falling through the multiverses?
GM: Again, I don’t think you need to know anything about New Genesis or any other information apart from what’s in the story. Darkseid wasn’t shot in the heart. We all know Batman doesn’t kill people, hasn’t killed people for 70 years and isn’t about to start here. It’s a big enough deal for Batman to pick up a gun. He winged Turpin knowing that the Radion in the bullet would be enough to poison Darkseid’s divine essence. Radion only kills gods after all. It slays ideas. After that shot, Darkseid is dying, just as someone with radiation poisoning might slowly expire, as Superman explains in #7. The Black Racer drags him struggling away into oblivion over the course of that issue until nothing remains but the fading, ghost-echoes of his malice.
Darkseid started falling through the universe after the event we experienced as The Death of The New Gods. He fell backwards through time and wound up in a human body, on Earth, in the Mister Miracle series back in 2005.
This somehow disputes what One said in his post? Face it trick the ALE isn't simple mind control and that along with other things not in darkseids plans or powerset caused events that took place.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This somehow disputes what One said in his post? Face it trick the ALE isn't simple mind control and that along with other things not in darkseids plans or powerset caused events that took place.
Wrong again 😂 the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestI can't even accuse you of being selective and not embracing context because absolutely none of what you quoted contradicts a single thing that I've stated. Arguing past me and simply wasting space with quotes that don't even begin to rebut my assertions doesn't suffice as an argument.
Except that Grant Morrison said it was Darkseid.
Originally posted by kevdudeRay states it. On-panel. Time and space cracked when Mokkari broadcast the ALE. The damn artist depicts it. Human beings started shooting Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. What's so hard to grasp that the ALE is more than just mind-control?
Wrong again 😂 the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that.
You're so willing to accept that Final Crisis revealed the true form of Darkseid for the first time, but you can't possibly accept that it also revealed the scope of the ALE for the first time also?
Aiyaiyai! Let go onedumgo!
There's a difference between time and space being affected and the idea that space-time itself was folded.
All of the points you seem to make ignore the singularity that DS created with his destructive energies.
It also ignores the fact that time and space were neither folded or crumpled when Mokkari infected Earth's comm tech with the ALE.
When DS fully manifested in Turpin's body the Lantern's state and I quote: "Space time just crumpled like it was crushed in a fist." Also notice that the Guardians referred to the ALE as a word weapon, capable of enslaving souls.
The only other time space is stated to be folding is in FC 7 again there, space and time have become Darkseid. Also you keep mentioning the humans all speaking as one etc etc, that's just part of the ALE's effect, each body becomes Darkseid; animated by a single will.
He crumples all time into one-time and assasinates Orion from a place he cannot see him, in a time where Orion doesn't exist i.e. which is where FC started (with the death of Orion).
Forgive me if I'm wrong Odg, but it seems as if you taking the context in that scan a bit to literal. The "Making Time and Space crack" statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. It looked to me that it was referring to the beginning of the whole Ale ordeal. My personal philosohy is that if something isn't clearly depicted on panel, then it's either hyperbole or a literary device, used to build up the significance of the story.
And seeing how the Oe is Darkseid's signature ability, doesn't that say that the people shooting the Ob, would more likely had been influenced by Darkseid's intervention then say the Ale itself?
Allankles: I think it's eminently clear to most people who have tracked our arguments, that you are the one who needs to let go.
Originally posted by AllanklesExcept I already posted the scan that says space and time did crack when the ALE was merely broadcast, well before Darkseid actually manifested fully. Short-term memory loss?
It also ignores the fact that time and space were [B]neither folded or crumpled when Mokkari infected Earth's comm tech with the ALE.[/b]
Originally posted by AllanklesYeah. They also mention machines capable of rewriting the laws of being. Hmph. Wonder if Darkseid used those to do what he did. Ironic how when you point out something to try to avoid what I point out, it can lead to holes in your argument.
When DS fully manifested in Turpin's body the Lantern's state and I quote: "Space time just crumpled like it was crushed in a fist." Also notice that the Guardians referred to the ALE as a word weapon, capable of enslaving souls.
Originally posted by AllanklesActually, Mr. Miracle stated that time and space broke as a result of the war that destroyed the Fourth World:
The only other time space is stated to be folding is in FC 7 again there, space and time have become Darkseid. Also you keep mentioning the humans all speaking as one etc etc, that's just part of the ALE's effect, each body becomes Darkseid; animated by a single will.
Specifically. Explicitly. So yeah. Yet, another statement that taken in its clearest possible meaning is dispositive that it was purely Darkseid with no influence of the ALE. I never mentioned the humans speaking together as one. I mentioned them shooting friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes at Wally and Barry.
Originally posted by HazsekswthurmomSo it's only hyperbole when we're talking about the ALE. But it's not hyperbole when we're talking about Darkseid? I doubt you would stand there and dictate that. So turn that type of logic back on yourself. All the statements where Darkseid is the subject of a certain feat, i.e. "his destructive emanations" could be hyperbole or literary device. Or more simply, it's just the author not pandering to his audience. When Thanos obtained the InfinityGauntlet, Starlin didn't whack you over the head with statements such as, "By virtue of his possession of the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos has infinite power." Would you argue that "[u]his[/i] infinite power" must attribute the power to Thanos only? Or is just obvious from the story that it's not his personal power, but his wielding the power of the Infinity Gauntlet?
Forgive me if I'm wrong Odg, but it seems as if you taking the context in that scan a bit to literal. The "Making Time and Space crack" statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. It looked to me that it was referring to the beginning of the whole Ale ordeal. My personal philosohy is that if something isn't clearly depicted on panel, then it's either hyperbole or a literary device, used to build up the significance of the story.
None of the statements being thrown at me, even when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning, is absolutely dispositive that the ALE is more than mind-control. None of those statements can be read that it must be Darkseid's personal power. All those statements can be read that it is Darkseid's power with the ALE. However, we have statements, when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning and actual scenes that are completely dispositive of the ALE only being mind-control. That's the point. And it's obvious.
Originally posted by HazsekswthurmomNo. Considering the ALE is presented as making Darkseid master of all existence and allowing all denizens to be his body as stated by he, himself, just no. It's speculation in the face of the purely obvious. It's so obvious, I shouldn't even have to entertain this.
And seeing how the Oe is Darkseid's signature ability, doesn't that say that the people shooting the Ob, would more likely had been influenced by Darkseid's intervention then say the Ale itself?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah. They also mention machines capable of rewriting the laws of being. Hmph. Wonder if Darkseid used those to do what he did. Ironic how when you point out something to try to avoid what I point out, it can lead to holes in your argument.
And this is the problem with your argumentation, you don't stick to the substantial story elements. For one, no machine that can change the law of being was used in the story outside of the miracle machine, which apparently was a cargo-cult motherbox with a single function.
You pick and choose little elements here and there that don't even qualify as concrete evidence. What is concrete is that DS created a singularity with his destructive energies. What is concrete is that time and space only crumpled upon DS' active involvement, nothing of that nature was shown to happen before FC 5.
In FC 7 again we get to see visual proof as well as a statement that time-space were being folded. Nothing of that nature takes place prior to FC 5, which coincides with what happened at the end of #4 and the subsequent # 5.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[BSpecifically. Explicitly. So yeah. Yet, another statement that taken in its clearest possible meaning is dispositive that it was purely Darkseid with no influence of the ALE. I never mentioned the humans speaking together as one. I mentioned them shooting friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes at Wally and Barry. [/B]
Which doesn't coincide with anything else you've mentioned or don't you see that? Also Miracle states (in the same scan) that Darkseid is dragging down the universe, i.e. he's using a singularity to crumple space-time towards Earth where the ALE awaits its victims.
I don't know what's difficult to grasp there.
