Originally posted by TricksterPriestIf you are master of all existence, such that all existence is now you... and you have a gaping void in your heart, than all existence will get sucked into that void. So what makes Darkseid master of all existence? ALE. What makes all existence now Darkseid? ALE. What started the whole war in heaven that was responsible for the destruction of the Fourth World and Orion leaving a gaping hole in DS' heart and DS falling through the Multiverse? ALE. Explained by Grant Morrison. ON-PANEL.
The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.
facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere.
I don't have to even refer to other on-panel proof that ALE cracks time/space or supporting proof to dispel the wrong notion that ALE is only mind-control. ALE started the whole mess of Final Crisis and ALE serves as the literal theme of Final Crisis. How can you possibly divorce everything from the ALE? Only if you want to inflate some ambiguous and completely unsupported idea that DS could have done all this without needing the ALE. Ridiculous.
And stop using ad hominem. This has nothing to do with "DC haterade." How many mistakes have I pointed out to several of you posters where you've outright conceded your errors despite our disagreements over overarching plot? Just because you seem to have a friend who also thinks Superman somehow used the Miracle Machine twice doesn't make my opposing view DC haterade. I read Final Crisis because I'm a fan of DC comics. I didn't read it, just so I could post on this board and deride DS. And unfortunately, the myth that DS w/o ALE could do what he did in Final Crisis is so outright wrong, someone ought to point it out. Reading Final Crisis incorrectly in so many ways is the greater crime here. I've been quoting Grant Morrison non-stop, his scans, his work and his interviews. Please. Keep the palm on the face and show yourself the door.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.
facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere.
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.
oooo Trick....
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.
The reason he was able to do what he did was because there was no 4th world to house his full manifestation. He descended into a lower dimension. Also there's the other element of trying to break all space and time to prevent a 5th world without him in it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0 Hazsekswthurmom: There have been rulings on this. Superman in Absolute Power, shattered an alternate Wonderwoman's bracelets in two shots. He came back with that memory. In fact, it haunted him that he snapped Wonderwoman's neck. We don't use the feat.facepalm Once again you apply faulty logic to something you have little understanding of.....predictable....The Wonder Woman feat doesn't have relevance to Superman because he PERFORMED IT ON AN ALTERNATE TIME LINE VERSION OF WONDER WOMAN. For all we know, she could of had class 50 strength and shittier equipment than normal canon Ww. The rules applies to characters from an alternate TIME LINE, or characters that had a feat involving alternate TIME LINE characters. Do you realize how laughable this argument is? It negates all forms of common sense and logic. It's about as retarded as saying " saw earth-1 Superman destroy a planet with his hv in another universe he visited, there for you can't use that feat because the no alternate universe rule". 🙄
Foundations is completely irrelevant. COMPLETELY. Messing with time does not correlate to completely collapsing space/time and the entire Multiverse in the slightest. Zarkko the tomorrow Man can screw with time. He can't collapse the entire Multiverse. Furthermore, Grant Morrison specifically mentions Cosmic Odyssey. And in that adventure, the ALE was more than just simple mind-control. How much plainer can you get as to which adventure would be more applicable to Final Crisis, an adventure he completely forgets and ignores? Or one in which he actually references on-panel? Not that hard.The presence of young avatar Darkseid's being removed from the time stream, nearly caused the destruction of the Dcu. And yet again you've misunderstood my reasoning for bringing that feat up. You stated with your own words, that Darkseid has never exhibited temporal effecting powers when he in fact did. It's irrelevant to what extent it was, I was just trying to inform of what he has done.
And don't try to smear face with that Cosmic Odyssey Bs. Even though it's still canon, the concept of the Ale in that story, was completely disregarded and retconned by f#cking Jim Starlin himself
I can't believe you're like Tricksterpriest. The big flippin tattoo that Ray creates on the Earth helps free people from ALE-induced slavery and Wonder Woman lassoing DS helps free people from ALE-induced slavery. Superman used the Miracle Machine ONCE. ONLY ONCE. At the very end of FC. It works its miracles by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. Superman wished for the happy ending and everything was fixed. Stop trying to confuse yourself. Lord. The damn Miracle Machine could only be used once Superman found Metron's Element X to complete it and used his own solar energy to power it. How could the Miracle Machine been used to undo the ALE prior to this? GAWD. Reread Final Crisis right now. You obviously completely missed when Ray makes the huge tattoo on Earth and you completely missed when and how Superman uses the Miracle Machine.crylaugh Do you even know what the Miracle Machine is? It's basically a plot device that dates back to the pre-crisis era, that brings any ones fantasy or dream to reality. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Ale. 🙄 It brought the multiverse back, but it's so called "life equation calculating" ability, has nothing to do with reviving the multiverse. Note how Luthor states that it looks like something capable of rewriting the laws of physics. And you know what? I'll gladly admit that Ww freed the rest of humanity, because she did. However the Miracle Machine did not need to calculate the Le to restore the multiverse, it was a goddamn plot device from the beginning.
Mokkari uses it, time/space and everythign is cracked. As recounted by Ray. On-panel. Cain and Spectre use the ALE to "unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." On-panel. The ALE-infected humans shoot Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. On-panel. The Miracle Machine fixes the Multiverse by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. The war in heaven and DS' fall were abruptly and directly caused by his mastery of the ALE. On-panel.Can you be more original and stop re posting the same irrelevant nonsense over and over again. Taken statements out of context and using it as evidence(nonsensical bullshit in your case) does not equate to a well structured argument. And do tell, when did Cain unmake creation with the Ale? I'd love to see what out of context dribble you'll provide me with, as "evidence". 🙄Get over yourself.
And also Odg, has it ever occured to you, that Supergirl made that life equation statement, because at the time the heroes needed a quick solution to their Darkseid problem, in that case the life equation? Maybe things didn't go according to plan.......Cause you know......reality ended up being destroyed...........
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi👆
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.
A black hole in creation at the center of where Darkseid's heart used to be. And in FC 5, Supergirl claimed to hear an enormous heartbeat. Right at the Command-D bunker, where Darkseid was resurrecting. The hole is what remains of Darkseid's heart.
To better frame this, could just anyone have wounded him so grievously? A higher dimensional being crashed into our reality, and the regular DC multiverse could not sustain the impact and crashed inward around the Doomsday singularity.
To put it bluntly and in the most straight forward fashion imaginable: As I said from the beginning and suspected early on, DARKSEID WAS THE SINGULARITY ITSELF.
And it takes realllllll gall, stupidity and fanboyism, to not only completely miss the points of FC, but to totally warp and disregard the basic physics and logic involved. thumbsupdur
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Read it again. The Lanterns state that the fall is causing the cracks to spread. How was it cracked in the first place? ALE. On-panel. Nobody is arguing that Darkseid isnt falling. It is by his falling that the Multiverse gets dragged into the singularity. The singularity originated because Orion took Darkseid's heart out and left a void.Thanks for putting up the scan because it furthers this exact point. When you become all existence and you have a void in your heart, what happens to you, what happens to all existence that is you? It gets sucked inward. And that's exactly the peril throughout Final Crisis. And what is it that makes Darkseid master of all existence in the first place? ALE. Say it again. ALE.
Kevdude: You rambled on without saying a single thing that contested my assertions. It looks like you're trying to rebut assertions I made, but you ended up putting words into my mouth. I never even talked about the Black Racer. Why did you mention that? And you're wrong anyway. Superman never loosened DS' grip so Black Racer could take him away. The Flashes caused that by making the Omega Finder Beams hit DS. That's how the Black Racer gets to DS. After being a discorporated spirit, then Superman destroys him with counter-vibrations learned when he was travelling in the Bleed. You agree Orion left a void where DS' heart used to be. You agree LE was used to fix everything Darkseid did. So I don't see how we're arguing over that.
I agree with you on some things but on the ALE I do not. Also Superman never kills remember?? Why would he need to kill DS when the bullet was already doing the job?? Makes no sense.. The Black Racer needed to take him away and he couldn't do so while merged with the Multiverse, even Grant has said this to be true.
GM: Again, I don’t think you need to know anything about New Genesis or any other information apart from what’s in the story. Darkseid wasn’t shot in the heart. We all know Batman doesn’t kill people, hasn’t killed people for 70 years and isn’t about to start here. It’s a big enough deal for Batman to pick up a gun. He winged Turpin knowing that the Radion in the bullet would be enough to poison Darkseid’s divine essence. Radion only kills gods after all. It slays ideas. After that shot, Darkseid is dying, just as someone with radiation poisoning might slowly expire, as Superman explains in #7. The Black Racer drags him struggling away into oblivion over the course of that issue until nothing remains but the fading, ghost-echoes of his malice. 😉
Originally posted by AllanklesThis is a statement that is neither supported, nor does it rebut anything I've said at all.
The reason he was able to do what he did was because there was no 4th world to house his full manifestation. He descended into a lower dimension. Also there's the other element of trying to break all space and time to prevent a 5th world without him in it.
Originally posted by HazsekswthurmomFalse. I rebutted the assertion that Darkseid had the ability to cause cracks to form across all sectors of space and to form a personal singularity to draw in all space and time. Don't put words into my mouth just so you can try to repaint my argument into something it's not. Reread what I posted. Quote it even. At least that way, you can't use straw-man argumentation without exposing to everybody that you're arguing against something that I haven't even said. Which renders your "rebuttals" pointless. Not my fault you're off-topic and arguing against phantom arguments.
You stated with your own words, that Darkseid has never exhibited temporal effecting powers when he in fact did.
You're using a storyline that Grant Morrison never even mentions to support (dubiously) that Darkseid could do what he did in Final Crisis on his own power, DESPITE the fact that Grant Morrison states that his mastery of the ALE precipitates everything. At the same time, you refuse to acknowledge my use of a storyline that Grant Morrison actually mentions which supports that the ALE can in fact, destroy all existence, which would completely fall in line with its depiction in Final Crisis. Your double-standard is nauseating.
Originally posted by HazsekswthurmomWho said it had anything to do with the ALE? Not I. More straw-man. I stated it had to do with calculating the LE. Which, from on-panel evidence, helps rebuild the Multiverse. Thus, by simple correlation, you can assume that it's opposite, the ALE, could break the Multiverse. How much more do I have to pander to you with baby logic before you understand how simply Grant Morrison laid everything out for you? On-panel. Sorry you can't understand how plain that is. Restating the obvious to you is a painful exercise that needn't be repeated. It's like you're trying to get me to restate the obvious so many times, that the truth of it somehow gets muddled. Please. It's on-panel. Other people can make of it, what they will. It's. On. Panel. LE = fixing Multiverse. Logically: ALE = destroying Multiverse. And since ALE being released = cracking space/time ON-PANEL, this assertion isn't just logical, it's actualyl supported. Get over it.
Do you even know what the Miracle Machine is? It's basically a plot device that dates back to the pre-crisis era, that brings any ones fantasy or dream to reality. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Ale. 🙄 It brought the multiverse back, but it's so called "life equation calculating" ability, has nothing to do with reviving the multiverse. Note how Luthor states that it looks like something capable of rewriting the laws of physics. And you know what? I'll gladly admit that Ww freed the rest of humanity, because she did. However the Miracle Machine did not need to calculate the Le to restore the multiverse, it was a goddamn plot device from the beginning.
Not only that, but you still completely missed the fact that Ray also creates a huge New Gods tatoo on the Earth to help free people from enslavement by the ALE. Good job. Despite the fact that Ollie, Black Canary, Tattoo Man, Black Lightning and Ray had an inordinate amount of panel space devoted to their own subplot. Makes me wonder how much else you missed from Final Crisis.
Originally posted by kevdudeYou're assuming I meant that killing Darkseid = physically murdering his body. I meant killing Darkseid = obliterating his discorporated spirit. Which Superman did with his counter-vibration song. So we're not disagreeing with each other on that point. Also, Superman has killed. Several times. But that's besides the point when concerning the ALE.
I agree with you on some things but on the ALE I do not. Also Superman never kills remember?? Why would he need to kill DS when the bullet was already doing the job?? Makes no sense.. The Black Racer needed to take him away and he couldn't do so while merged with the Multiverse, even Grant has said this to be true.