Odin w/ Destroyer Armor vs Darkseid w/ Entropy Aegis Armor

Originally posted by Allankles
lol. The Anti-life equation is the EMCsquared of despair, not a power up, Morrison's own interpretation. When it is used in Soldiers it preys on Shilo Norman's emotional vulnerabilities. No time displacement powers (that's the OE's domain).

Also we are already told that he cracked space when he descended from the 4th world to Earth.

Now since you've been engaging in ignoring the plain and the obvious, let's do yet, even more reading, "Darkseid's recent mastery of the Anti-Life Equation precipitated a disastrous war in heaven which resulted in the "Death" of the New Gods and Darkseid's subsequent catastrophic fall into the material world."

So his mastery of the ALE abruptly and directly caused the cosmic war and his falling through the Multiverse? A fall which you, yourself, attribute to causing the Multiverse to collapse? How is quoting something which I posted myself doing anything but hurting your case and supporting mine? Final Crisis wouldn't have happened without the ALE. Darkseid needed it for his war. Mokkari used it to crack time/space. Cain enslaved Spectre to "unmake creation." The Multiverse was fixed by the Miracle Machine calculating the LE. It's that damn simple.

Tell onedumb, can just anyone do what Darkseid did? Because it's one thing to enslave souls, minds and wills. IT'S ANOTHER TO SURPLANT THEM AND USE 6 BILLION BODIES AS EXTENSIONS OF YOURSELF. The amount of concentration, multitasking and indeed, sheer scope indicates a vast consciousness beyond human comprehension. The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power.

ANSWER ME THIS THEN. If Darkseid fell through and cracked space/time, then how big was he? This is the fatal flaw in your arguement. You're refusing to accept the other part of the equation, so to speak. Consider the scale, mass and curvature of space/time needed to cause a black hole. It's caused by an object of enormous mass whose gravity caves in on itself creating a hole in space/time.

EXACTLY HOW BIG WOULD DARKSEID HAVE TO BE TO CAUSE A BLACK HOLE AKA DOOMSDAY SINGULARITY, THAT WOULD CRUSH AND DRAG DOWN THE ENTIRE DCU MULTIVERSE?

It's really just a simpler explanation. A massive object, in this case, Darkseid, crashed into the past. Hence, the time distortion in Seven Soldiers. Darkseid appears in a human body, manifesting only part of his powers in an avatar. And now, we get to the point where reality catches up to the fact that Darkseid fell through. Darkseid himself begins fully manifesting inside Dan Turpin. What happens? A singularity begins forming. A massive heartbeat, that's what Supergirl said. "Space-time suddenly crumpled as if grasped by a fist."

It's the simpler explanation, but you won't hear of it, oh no. you can't admit this is the easier and more logical solution. Because if you do, then Darkseid's true power is evident. And the avatar arguement is proven true, thus meaning Darkseid was always at this level of power. "They have only ever faced the idea of god. Now is God himself manifest among them."

And this was a weakened, near dying Darkseid. But go on denying it. when everyone around you sees the truth, and you are in it's shadow denying it even as the sheer scale of the thing itself is beyond you. Like an ant trying to understand what the sky is, or what the wind is.

You stand in the footsteps of giants, and still you do not believe. ❌

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Tell onedumb, can just anyone do what Darkseid did? Because it's one thing to enslave souls, minds and wills. IT'S ANOTHER TO SURPLANT THEM AND USE 6 BILLION BODIES AS EXTENSIONS OF YOURSELF. The amount of concentration, multitasking and indeed, sheer scope indicates a vast consciousness beyond human comprehension. The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power.

That's exactly what the ALE is capable of doing. 🤨

Nuff said.

Why don't we get back on topic which is darkseid with entropy aegis and no ALE versus Odin with the destroyer armor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He used a different form of the damn ALE in Seven Soldiers. Morrison states that right in the damn scan! Are you not reading the whole thing? Let's read some more, he also says that, "We see only facets of the unimaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." If it's entirety is just mind-control like you assert... wonder what could be so unimaginable about it. That's a pretty simple concept there.

The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So his mastery of the ALE abruptly and directly caused the cosmic war and his falling through the Multiverse? A fall which you, yourself, attribute to causing the Multiverse to collapse?

What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space.

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the [B]right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.

What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space. [/B]

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He lost, the Collective BFR'd him. Unfortunately a BFR = a win in forum debates.

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the [B]right to have mastery over all sentient life.[/b]

Originally posted by Allankles
As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.

Originally posted by Allankles
What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He lost, the Collective BFR'd him. Unfortunately a BFR = a win in forum debates.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I haven't read this in a while, but I recall Iron Man calling off the Sentry.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Knowsbleed33 is probably referring to when Sentry tackled him inter outer space and Collective pushed him away with a blast. Unfortunately, he misunderstands the idea of BFR. BFR is when you're removed from the battle-field and you can't get back under your own power. Sentry flies and did get back under his own power. So it wasn't a BFR.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]Yeah, like Death of the New Gods was an avatar... an avatar that revealed that the ALE was far more than just mind-control. Dude. We don't use alternate universes, alternate futures. It's in the rules. Superman broke Wonderwoman's bracelets in two punches in an alternate future and he came back with that memory. We don't use the feat. Considering that Grant Morrison expressly referenced Cosmic Odyssey and never referenced Foundations, it was the latter that was retconned out of existence. Lulz.

It's some of the most illogical and head ache impending crap on planet, trying to get that message through certain peoples heads. Regular "vanilla" Darkseid caused the time stream's collapsing. And how the hell does Grant Morrison's non existant opinion on foundations, factor in? 😐

Dude. Thor and Surfer have temporal abilities. Neither of them could crush a damn Multiverse. Darkseid never showed the ability to collapse space/time. Is that statement wrong? So what the heck do you not get about what I said.

No. Ray's tattoo on one hemisphere of the Earth helped to undo the corruption of souls and such. Wonderwoman lassoing DS helped to undo the corruption of souls and such. Neither did anything to reverse the damage done to time and space. Only the Miracle Machine, by calculating the Life-Equation, could undo the damage.

Funny. One of the main purposes of fc, was to be the revalation of the true ALE. Considering Grant Morrison spent this much time talking about the damn Anti-Life Equation:

Considering that you don't have any proof except for statements that could easily be read BOTH ways that Darkseid did it under his own power or that Darkseid w/ALE did it, considering there isn't a single panel where Darkseid didn't have the ALE in Final Crisis, considering that Grant Morrison himself stated in the above scan that Darkseid's mastery of the ALE actually precipitated the war in the Fourth World, considering that space and time cracked once Mokkari released the ALE on the internet, considering that Cain/Spectre talked about the ALE unmaking creation and considering that the Life Equation fixed the Multiverse... do you really think you're on the winning end of this argument?

Moot point. I've already made you concede that the ALE is more than just mind-control. But that's not all. Because we both agreed that preconceptions ought to be dispelled, yet you won't even budge when it comes to the ALE. And refusing to accept that the ALE , "an equation that makes you master of all existence," could possibly affect time/space in spite of this scan is simply disingenuous:

And you don't have to post that damn scan, over and over again. 🙄

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Your statement is completely unsupported. Not a single panel or statement by anybody said Darkseid cracked time and space. T

The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

😂 Unbelievable that Onedumb even after all this still does not get it, nice job Allankles and others. Where was the Black Hole Onedumb?? It was where Darkseids heart used to be, while Orion and him fought in the Fourth World that is what happened in there final battle where he ripped his fathers heart out and Darkseid fell into the material world cracking time and space! After this happens he is able to see Mandrakk draining the Multiverse and he takes precautions making sure Mandrakk won't show up only after Darkseid is finally gone does Mandrakk show up and he is taken down pretty quickly.. The ALE (Libra) was being used way before on people and it did nothing but what Morrison has said it does, One you use DTNG as if it was what really happened... It was what Superman could comprehend and some of the stuff didn't happen as shown. Superman never killed Darkseid all he did was loosen his grip on the Multiverse so the Black Racer could drag him away. After this the Miracle Machine was used to calculate the Life Equation to bring hope back to the Multiverse and reverse Darkseids corrupting presence had caused to the Multiverse. In Countdown ancient powerful magicans left and ran away because they feared him so much. 😎

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the [B]right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.

What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space. [/B]

Well I'm at least glad that you admitted it was him falling and the war that first cracked time and caused the multiverse to collaspe. As I said him falling and causing such things to happen ISN'T his own power doing so. It's not like he stood there and has all this power to generate the multiverse collasping. Nope. He died and thus him dying is what causing the multiverse to collaspe. That speaks more to his meaning and in a sense importance in the multiverse then his powerset

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well I'm at least glad that you admitted it was him falling and the war that first cracked time and caused the multiverse to collaspe. As I said him falling and causing such things to happen ISN'T his own power doing so. It's not like he stood there and has all this power to generate the multiverse collasping. Nope. He died and thus him dying is what causing the multiverse to collaspe. That speaks more to his meaning and in a sense importance in the multiverse then his powerset

The war did not crack space and time, it was because OF THE WAR that Orion and Darkseids final battle and Orion ripping his heart out that caused him to fall and crack space and time, it has been stated many times! That is what it means! His importance means what?? The Source allowed him to die and the Multiverse was still around, it was his powerset and who he is that caused it.. Read Read Read 😱

Originally posted by kevdude
The war did not crack space and time, it was because OF THE WAR that Orion and Darkseids final battle and Orion ripping his heart out that caused him to fall and crack space and time, it has been stated many times! That is what it means! His importance means what?? The Source allowed him to die and the Multiverse was still around, it was his powerset and who he is that caused it.. Read Read Read 😱

Wrong him falling started and caused the chain reaction not his powerset. So, your saying if he didn't "fall" he could've just stood there and with a wave of his hand collaspe the multiverse? You know the answer to that question and it's NO. Therefore, clearly as depicted on panel and all that we know him "falling" is the cause of it all starting which is nothing to do with his power but his importance.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong him falling started and caused the chain reaction not his powerset. So, your saying if he didn't "fall" he could've just stood there and with a wave of his hand collaspe the multiverse? You know the answer to that question and it's NO. Therefore, clearly as depicted on panel and all that we know him "falling" is the cause of it all starting which is nothing to do with his power but his importance.

So now your saying him falling and not the war doing it first started the collapse?? backtracking somewhat? His falling with his powerset of who he IS is what did it, he is the CENTER of his own powerset!!! And no if he did not fall he couldn't have collapse it, it was still filled with hope and Darkseids evil presence had not fallen into it to begin its collapse and even if he wished to destroy it earlier he couldn't have because it would spark a war with New Genesis (something he knew he would have to do before launching an attack on the Multiverse) and that is not what Darkseid wanted to do until his own choosing, and when he chose to he knew it would be a terrible war, against New Genesis tech is the most advanced in the DCU. 😄

Hazsekswthurmom: There have been rulings on this. Superman in Absolute Power, shattered an alternate Wonderwoman's bracelets in two shots. He came back with that memory. In fact, it haunted him that he snapped Wonderwoman's neck. We don't use the feat.

Foundations is completely irrelevant. COMPLETELY. Messing with time does not correlate to completely collapsing space/time and the entire Multiverse in the slightest. Zarkko the tomorrow Man can screw with time. He can't collapse the entire Multiverse. Furthermore, Grant Morrison specifically mentions Cosmic Odyssey. And in that adventure, the ALE was more than just simple mind-control. How much plainer can you get as to which adventure would be more applicable to Final Crisis, an adventure he completely forgets and ignores? Or one in which he actually references on-panel? Not that hard.

I can't believe you're like Tricksterpriest. The big flippin tattoo that Ray creates on the Earth helps free people from ALE-induced slavery and Wonder Woman lassoing DS helps free people from ALE-induced slavery. Superman used the Miracle Machine ONCE. ONLY ONCE. At the very end of FC. It works its miracles by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. Superman wished for the happy ending and everything was fixed. Stop trying to confuse yourself. Lord. The damn Miracle Machine could only be used once Superman found Metron's Element X to complete it and used his own solar energy to power it. How could the Miracle Machine been used to undo the ALE prior to this? GAWD. Reread Final Crisis right now. You obviously completely missed when Ray makes the huge tattoo on Earth and you completely missed when and how Superman uses the Miracle Machine.

Mokkari uses it, time/space and everythign is cracked. As recounted by Ray. On-panel. Cain and Spectre use the ALE to "unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." On-panel. The ALE-infected humans shoot Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. On-panel. The Miracle Machine fixes the Multiverse by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. The war in heaven and DS' fall were abruptly and directly caused by his mastery of the ALE. On-panel.

Get over yourself.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

Thanks for putting up the scan because it furthers this exact point. When you become all existence and you have a void in your heart, what happens to you, what happens to all existence that is you? It gets sucked inward. And that's exactly the peril throughout Final Crisis. And what is it that makes Darkseid master of all existence in the first place? ALE. Say it again. ALE.

Kevdude: You rambled on without saying a single thing that contested my assertions. It looks like you're trying to rebut assertions I made, but you ended up putting words into my mouth. I never even talked about the Black Racer. Why did you mention that? And you're wrong anyway. Superman never loosened DS' grip so Black Racer could take him away. The Flashes caused that by making the Omega Finder Beams hit DS. That's how the Black Racer gets to DS. After being a discorporated spirit, then Superman destroys him with counter-vibrations learned when he was travelling in the Bleed. You agree Orion left a void where DS' heart used to be. You agree LE was used to fix everything Darkseid did. So I don't see how we're arguing over that.

The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.

THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.

facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere.