In this thread ODG FTW. It's been rather clear from the jump what the evidence points towards, and that is with ODG. He sees things the way I do which the super uber duper DS contigent can't see because they are blinded. They are so desperate and want to cling onto anything that protrays DS in a new light and give him credit for everything that happened in FC from his own powerset. The only problem is the evidence goes against that and they refuse to see it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Master over all existence:
Pure unsupported garbage. Show me any proof that ALE can only affect sentient life. Because we all know you keep ignoring when the ALE affected time, space and the physical world:Nuff said? Nuff said.
I don't see any reconstruction of time, space and physical world in those scans. Two fire pits forming from Spectre's destructive energies does not quanitfy as empirical evidence. It just doesn't.
No mincing of words buddy, get with the facts, the ALE never reconstructed time, space and the world on panel. You pick off a piece of narrative that doesn't even mention the ALE and you think it qualifies as proof? Wrong.
And repeat posting scans we've already discussed in the same thread, it just sparks of insecurity in your position. Anyone with any sense that takes the time to look at those scans will call you out for bs.
The ALE is a mathematical equation, a truth that only affects those who see it.
Best analogy would be imagining someone had mathematical proof that God existed, if this mathematical proof was shown to an atheist you might imagine that it would cause him to believe in the existence of God.
That's the same way the ALE functions, it is proof via mathematical evidence that Darkseid is the one God, anyone that has it projected at them is made to believe in it, as it represents the truth that free will doesn't exist and DS is master over creation.
The equation itself in not some entity with the power to destroy the universe, it has unimaginable depth however to be able to disprove the very concept of free will.
I'm tired of people's misconceptions of the ALE's purpose, read Revelations for yourself.
Every on panel feat by the ALE has people being made slaves after viewing the equation at no point during the entire event was the ALE said to be capable of reconstructing a universe, it however would remake all sentient life into Darkseid's image.
You want to pick and choose words like "unmake" without recognize the area of effect of this unmaking. The physical universe was never unmade but life (creation) was being unmade into the image of Darkseid (Anti-life).
Rucka makes it clear with the images of humanity being enslaved by the truth of Anti-life.
Also let's not forget how you blatantly refused to accept the empirical evidence that the Darkseid singularity was what was affecting space and time. in FC # 4 Darkseid full manifestation occupies Turpin's body after fattening itself via the struggle Turpin's soul puts up.
Then at the beginning of FC # 5 the guardians and the Lanterns state that the impact of Darkseid's fall onto the material plane (specifically Earth) has caused cracks to spread out across all sectors of space. And that "Space-time around Earth just crampled like it had been crashed by a fist."
In the same FC # 5 The Guardians state that the destructive ammanations of the singularity are stemming from DS.
Barry Allen mentions that a fallen Devil god is dragging the entire multiverse into a blackhole. Darkseid in FC # 5 states that he'll draw everyone into a hell with no escape where he will murder their souls again and again.
Where in all this, after the fact that the 4th world was destroyed and DS' full manifestation falls into a lower dimension (the material world) was it ever mentioned that the ALE was respnsible?
Morrsion himself stated the New Gods were Galactus level beings and had no true physical forms. The New Gods embody concepts, just as Kirby intended.
EDIT: I'm sure you all know about the IG stories, and THotu and the cosmic cube. In those stories the powerups were always mentioned as the power behind what was happening.
In FC the ALE is never given such properties, not once is the destruction of space-time related to the Anti-life equation and the Mokkari incident doesn't qualify as it was a narration on the entirey of the event, never was the ALE stated to be the root cause of any space-time distortions, however Darkseid's presence and destructive emmanations were stated as being responsible for the space-time singularity.
Simply put, the discent of DS's fully manifested presence into earth is what caused the rift in the DCU. It was the reaction of his own Godly demonic powers and not the ALE,it has never been suggested the ALE ever functioned like the IG/HOTU in the sense that it empowered the usser with incredible cosmic power. In FC that was all DS's doing under his own power, ALE is completly irrelevent to DS's power.
Originally posted by Makky
Simply put, the discent of DS's fully manifested presence into earth is what caused the rift in the DCU. It was the reaction of his own Godly demonic powers and not the ALE,it has never been suggested the ALE ever functioned like the IG/HOTU in the sense that it empowered the usser with incredible cosmic power. In FC that was all DS's doing under his own power, ALE is completly irrelevent to DS's power.
Wrong most everything he did wasn't under his own powerset and were ripple effects of things out of his control. It's all on panel and why you guys choose to ignore the facts is beyond me Galen.
Allankles: Everytime Darkseid is mentioned, he's in possession of the ALE. How many times have we seen in stories involving artifacts where, "Oh no. Thanos just destroyed half of all life in the universe!" Would you use such a statement to assert that Thanos' own power did that? Because that's EXACTLY what you are doing. You're cherry-picking statements and ignoring context. Anytime something is attributed to Darkseid, he possesses the ALE. Therefore, those few sentences you've scrounged up do nothing to confirm it was Darkseid's own power.
What are we left with? Instances where the ALE, independent of any action by Darkseid, does something. Mokkari, Cain+Spectre. And even though they are on-panel, even though they are unequivocal, you spout off this purple prose nonsensical self-serving garbage:
Originally posted by AllanklesPfft. So when someone says that the ALE just cracked time and space on-panel, it's not evidence that the ALE can crack time and space. Oh. I see. Your logic is so clear to me now. Here, these characters cannot be trusted at all... only your cherrypicked characters' statements can be trusted:
such properties, not once is the destruction of space-time related to the Anti-life equation and the Mokkari incident doesn't qualify as it was a narration on the entirey of the event, never was the ALE stated to be the root cause of any space-time distortions, however Darkseid's presence and destructive emmanations were stated as being responsible for the space-time singularity. [/B]
When another character commands someone to unmake creation and rebuild the world by speaking the ALE, it's not evidence that speaking the ALE can unmake creation and rebuild the world. Oh, nonono. Actually, what they meant was, unmake creation = enslave humanity. And rebuild the world = enslave humanity. Flawless logic:
And even though there are obvious physical distortions that occur at the same exact time the Spectre speaks the ALE, that's not evidence the ALE can affect existence. Oh, how obvious! You see, anything physical occuring is all Spectreforce, or arsonists... or magically appearing retrofitted hellborers. Only, and only, the enslavement part is ALE. Oh, wow. So clear to me now:
In conclusion, anytime you want to rely on a character's statements, that is acceptable. Not only that, even though you still could read the statement both ways, only your way is correct. Anytime I want to rely on a character's statements, that is unacceptable... simply because I chose it. Oh, by the way, you can't read my statements both ways. Unless you use some purple prose bs logic, where someone says something, but actually he meant something completely different. Also, anytime I want to rely on action that occurs on-panel, no. Some off-panel, coincidental explanation must be used. That reminds me:
Keep dodging how a New God manifesting doesn't actually cause any Multiversal disruptions. Even though that is the core of your convulted fanboy theory, that a New God simply by manifesting, can wreck the multiverse. Oops. Another New God did and nothign happened. Yeah... more off-panel explanations. Life Equation, the polar opposite of the Anti-Life Equation, rewrites physics and fixes multiverse? Simple correlative logic suggests Anti-Life equation violates physics and breaks Multiverse? Nonono, how stupid of me to use common sense! It only bottles the universe for its protection! Even though the universe was destroyed... on-panel... before Superman could even use the Miracle Machine and the JLA Watchtower was all that was left by that time................ 😐
EPIC. PHAIL.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong most everything he did wasn't under his own powerset and were ripple effects of things out of his control. It's all on panel and why you guys choose to ignore the facts is beyond me Galen.
So I assume the posted "on-panel confirmation" of what I just said means nothing, Although I'll break it down so even you can understand, just cause I'm a nice guy and all. Imagine the DCU and all of it's inhabitants as being a flat 2D plane, or in other words a flat table covered in coins. Now DS would be a fully 3D object like a bowling ball, now imagine if you were to go at the top of a 20 store building and drop the bowling ball into the tabel. The mere weight of the ball at the speed it comes droping down would literally destroy the table and scatter all the coins on top of it. It's what happened here, the mere presence and weight of DS's power caused the DCU to fold and scatter about.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Allankles: Everytime Darkseid is mentioned, he's in possession of the ALE. How many times have we seen in stories involving artifacts where, "Oh no. Thanos just destroyed half of all life in the universe!" Would you use such a statement to assert that Thanos' own power did that? Because that's EXACTLY what you are doing. You're cherry-picking statements and ignoring context. Anytime something is attributed to Darkseid, he possesses the ALE. Therefore, those few sentences you've scrounged up do nothing to confirm it was Darkseid's own power.
Except the ALE is not an artifact but a mathematical equation, it is not a power source like Thotu either, so spare me the inaccurate comparisons.
Let's break this down. None of the scans you've shown state that the ALE's purpose was to unmake creation in a physical fashion. When Mokkari infects the internet he does it to infect the human beings logged on.
When the Spectre is commanded via the power of the Spear of Destiny to spread out the Anti-Life Equation, and unmake creation we don't see any physical recreation of existence. We don't see a universe unmade at all, what we see is the Spectre's metaphysical form spreading out getting distorted by the effects of the Spear.
The ALE's primary purpose throughout FC is to turn all sentient life into Darkseid's body. Never was its purpose or function stated to be breaking time and space.
Free will is what it's all about. Creation cannot take place without free will. To sentient life free will is primary of all concepts and without it, everything else is irrelevant. When DS takes away free will he replaces the very image of the Old God himself (the nature of his divinity) with his own, in Anti-life.
The creation of the Old God is determined by free will, he gave it as a gift to sentient beings so that they may mirror him (as he is the very source of the idea of free will).
The whole "DS had the ALE when he did that" is a cop out, inconsistent with everything we're told in FC. Every time a power up is responsible its functions are clearly determined. Whether it's Thanos with a power up, or any other character in any fictional medium, yet here, FC does its best not to relate the ALE - not even a single time - to any of DS feats.
Better yet, DS' full manifestation is finally stated to have come down from the 4th world. The 4th world is destroyed in a devastating war and DS - the only survivor - descends to the material world where the impact of his fall on Earth send cracks across all time and space.
After the Radion poisoning Morrison stated that DS began to retcon time lines and warp reality as he slowly descended into the blackhole at the centre of creation, he was doing that as spite as we see in FC #7 where he's dying, and space time is shown to be folding up.
Originally posted by Makky
So I assume the posted "on-panel confirmation" of what I just said means nothing, Although I'll break it down so even you can understand, just cause I'm a nice guy and all. Imagine the DCU and all of it's inhabitants as being a flat 2D plane, or in other words a flat table covered in coins. Now DS would be a fully 3D object like a bowling ball, now imagine if you were to go at the top of a 20 store building and drop the bowling ball into the tabel. The mere weight of the ball at the speed it comes droping down would literally destroy the table and scatter all the coins on top of it. It's what happened here, the mere presence and weight of DS's power caused the DCU to fold and scatter about.
Decent analogy. He's from a higher vibration world a non material dimension. When the 4th world collapsed a being from this higher dimension smashed up the multiverse with his descent, and was determined to enslave all life and establish himself as the one God. He did this also to prevent a 5th world which would have been reborn without him in it.
Originally posted by AllanklesOnly... you completely ignore when another New God fully mainested in the lower dimension before Darkseid. Namely, Orion. He fell because there was no Fourth World either. Multiversal upheaval when he manifested? Nope. As such, simply being a New God and manifesting in a lower vibratory dimension means nothing. The main difference betweeb Orion and Darkseid? Darkseid mastered the ALE. Nuff said.
Decent analogy. He's from a higher vibration world a non material dimension. When the 4th world collapsed a being from this higher dimension smashed up the multiverse with his descent, and was determined to enslave all life and establish himself as the one God. He did this also to prevent a 5th world which would have been reborn without him in it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong most everything he did wasn't under his own powerset and were ripple effects of things out of his control. It's all on panel and why you guys choose to ignore the facts is beyond me Galen.
The only thing out of his control was The Flash returning to life, the ALE is just that, it does nothing to time as it was being USED before Darkseid started his ascension, how many times do you have to be told that?? Darkseid knew in advance everything that would happen and still shot Orion and killed him. If you want to say the ALE made space/time crack thats fine but lets understand how they are using it in the sentence, giving Darkseid a lifeline to be able to break through after the war and then he started to become everything and his presence was to much for it. Orion was dumped on Earth while still in the Fourth World starting a time paradox.
Originally posted by MakkyYes, because if you read the story you'd realize he won the war due to the ale and the fact he can't do what he did in fc without it.
That isn't supported by the actual panel evidence, and to my knowloedge the ALE as never worked as a amplifcation device. What he did in FC was his own doing, the ALE has no relevence whatsoever.
Originally posted by kevdudeAnd Superman, Batman, Mr Miracle, Metron, Nix Uotan, etc etc.
The only thing out of his control was The Flash returning to life,
Originally posted by kevdude If you want to say the ALE made space/time crack thats fine but lets understand how they are using it in the sentence, giving Darkseid a lifeline to be able to break through after the war and then he started to become everything and his presence was to much for it. Orion was dumped on Earth while still in the Fourth World starting a time paradox. [/B]Yes, ALE cracked time/space. For the expressed purpose of breaking existence down so that it would conform to DS' form. After all, ALE makes you master of all existence, such that existence becomes you. Orion did not have the ALE, which is why, when he fell from the Fourth World after it was destroyed, existence was not becoming distorted.
So why do we ignore how important the ALE is to Darkseid? Even when there is direct evidence that the ALE causes time and space to crack and can cause physical distortions to existence such that creation is unmade and the world is rebuilt? Because you want Darkseid to have some sort of multiversal significance? Purple prose assertions and wild speculation sourced by personal motivation does not overcome the plain presentation of clear on-panel evidence.
When you master the ALE, you become master of all existence, such that existence becomes you. Darkseid was evil, distorted and had a singularity at his core. Existence became evil, distorted and became subsumed into a singularity. How much more obvious can you get? ALE is more than just mind-control. ALE does more than enslave hukmanity. As shown on-panel, as described on-panel, as evinced on-panel. After all, the mind control and enslavement aspects of ALE are only facets of the unimaginable whole that is the complete ALE. Who said that? Grant Morrison. Nuff said.
