Barriss Offee's Gauntlet!

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Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your obviously a SW fan. How come you've never been here in the past?

Too busy moderating the Comic Book forum?

Yes, a massive, massive fan.

Lack of interest/knowledge/frame of reference.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Sounds a lot like what we do on the VS forum, tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're absolutely precious when angry. Tell me again how Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious despite not being named as such by Lucas. 😂

I stated comparable saber performance, which still doesn't necessarily put him on parr. According to ranking provided by Nick Gillard Kenobi is level 8, while Anakin, Yoda, Windu and Sidious are 9. And considering how long Kenobi held his own against Anakin demonstrates that 1 level is very small difference.

Originally posted by Arhael
I stated comparable saber performance, which still doesn't necessarily put him on parr.

We've been through this before: Fisto, Kolar & Tiin all died with nary a single expression of the Force from Sidious, to which George decreed one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with him. I'll grant Dooku as a potential exception; he was both dead and aligned with Sidious anyway. But Obi-Wan was alive and an antagonist to the Sith, a potential opponent. That George omitted him must have been deliberate.

Arhael
According to ranking provided by Nick Gillard Kenobi is level 8, while Anakin, Yoda, Windu and Sidious are 9. And considering how long Kenobi held his own against Anakin demonstrates that 1 level is very small difference.

Before we get into that at all, remind me again of the questionable logic of comparing Kit to Obi-Wan based on "comparable performances" against Grievous when you do the same with Obi-Wan and Sidious based on "comparable performances" against the Zabraks?

Yes Arheal the whole concept of Kenobi being even comparable in Saber Skill to Sidious based on recent episodes has to be thrown out of the window based on Lucas's old statement from 2005.

Spoiler:
Well at least according to the dodgy interpretation of it. I swear Nick Gillard must have been high when Lucas gave him those Saber Prowess Ratings 😂

Likewise we should throw out all of Filoni's current statements about Grievous based on what the ROTS Novel says written in 2005 which was line edited by Lucas, and based on Lucas's original vision shown in the CW Mini.

Because it's not like anyone here would want to use Double Standards or anything.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've been through this before: Fisto, Kolar & Tiin all died with nary a single expression of the Force from Sidious, to which George decreed one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with him. I'll grant Dooku as a potential exception; he was both dead and aligned with Sidious anyway. But Obi-Wan was alive and an antagonist to the Sith, a potential opponent. That George omitted him must have been deliberate.

And we are being through this again. Statement applies in general and does not imply that Sidious is above others in every way. I argued strictly in confines of lightsaber skill.

This:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.

This quote applies strictly to sabers. It is direct proof that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Kenobi is one level below, which is not big difference considering that Kenobi could survive Anakin in exhaustively long fight.

And this:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

This quote is direct proof that rankings come from Lucas himself.
You assumed that Kenobi can't compete with Sidious "on any level" based on vague statement of Lucas. Now I have evidence that states Kenobi to be only 1 level below, which is rather small difference. And Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, yet, he is still not on the list. So your rant about me being wrong to judge saber performance separately can be thrown out of the window.

Before we get into that at all, remind me again of the questionable logic of comparing Kit to Obi-Wan based on "comparable performances" against Grievous when you do the same with Obi-Wan and Sidious based on "comparable performances" against the Zabraks?

Sure. When comparing Kenobi's and Fisto's performances I addressed circumstances.

Fisto:
1. He started by taunting and hiding in mist. It's called Dun Moch, which is known to render performance of opponent as well as provoke for silly move. And Grievous made that silly move, he made a single attack overexerting himself. Fisto took advantage of that and took away one lightsaber without any effort.

2. He utilized Jarkai. I've already said that Jarkai makes it much easier defending against simultaneous attacks. I even brought example of how Luke constructed second lightsaber to counter dual nature of Lumiya's lightwhip.

3. On top of that Grievous was already deprived of one lightsaber, when Fisto started overwhelming him.

4. Before the circumstances above Grievous held his own against both Fisto and Nahdar simultaneously until troopers started helping:
YouTube video
As you see with single lightsaber Fisto was nowhere as big problem despite another Jedi attacking Grievous from opposite side.

Kenobi:
1. Improves throughout series. Pointing out at how Grievous ragdolled him in one of the first episodes is as pointless as pointing out at how Dooku outskilled him.

2. His style is defensive. No matter how skilled he is, he will never be driving someone back because that's not what Soresu is about. Soresu is about passive defense, giving ground and waiting for opponent to make a mistake.

3. Uses only one lightsaber. And demonstrated defending against all four lightsabers.

Both novels and TCW consistently show that characters with single saber have much harder time against Grievous than Jarkai practitioners.

Nahdar casually handled Magnaguards, yet, he was helpless against Grievous:
Or1t7i20qi4

Eeth Koth is Forced on the defensive:
YouTube video

Fisto with help from padawan was unable to do anything to Grievous until troopers joined in.

The list extends farther with Windu being unable to do anything to Grievous.

With Jarkai both Fisto and Ventress showed themselves well. Even Asoka despite her inferior skill to others could hold her own against Grievous for a while with Jarkai.

No practitioner with single saber was able to disarm Grievous in straight fight. Kenobi is the only example as he disarmed him of two lightsabers.

As for performance against brothers circumstances and methods are almost the same. Both used Jarkai. Both utilized kicks. On top of that Sidious had advantage of using Force attacks, while Kenobi disadvantage of being targeted by Force attacks. Despite that Kenobi still handled Opress and he did that while dealing with Maul at the same time but Sidious took out Maul with TK and handled Opress in 1 on 1.

Arhael
And we are being through this again. Statement applies in general and does not imply that Sidious is above others in every way. I argued strictly in confines of lightsaber skill.

Only if we neglect the fact that George's declaration was in response to three Jedi Masters losing to Sidious "in teh pure saberz!!1!" then yeah, sure.

Arhael
This:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.

This quote applies strictly to sabers. It is direct proof that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Kenobi is one level below, which is not big difference considering that Kenobi could survive Anakin in exhaustively long fight.

And this:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

This quote is direct proof that rankings come from Lucas himself.
You assumed that Kenobi can't compete with Sidious "on any level" based on vague statement of Lucas. Now I have evidence that states Kenobi to be only 1 level below, which is rather small difference. And Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, yet, he is still not on the list. So your rant about me being wrong to judge saber performance separately can be thrown out of the window.

So, what you're saying is... Sidious is a level 9... and Obi-Wan is a level 8. Now, last I checked, 9 is actually greater than 8... but, by all means, we will subvert mathematical axioms to further your argument. 👆

Arhael
Kenobi is the only example as he disarmed him of two lightsabers.

...Which means Obi-Wan is better in "teh pure saberz!!1!" than Mace, Ventress, Fisto, Koth, et al.? Even though Nick Gillard (or Lucas, rather) says otherwise? Setting you up to defeat yourself is terribly easy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Skilled non-sensitives can be harder to blitz. Jedi rely on Force anticipation but Force user of Sidious caliber can confuse anticipation. So what normally gives Force user advantage over non-sensitives can be used against him as well:
"This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses".

Are you new to SW, Arhael? The average fan knows that a force user usually has the advantage of speed and reflex moreso than a non-force user. Shadow Conspiracy makes it very clear that the force gave Maul these advantages over Vizla, and yet Vizla still managed to hold his own. On the otherhand, we have Sidious blitzing two force users before they were able to react. Based on that, we can conclude that Sidious speed is above Maul's by miles, considering that the opponents he blitzed had the advantage of using the force for enhanced speed and reflex, whereas Vizla did not. And yes, as I said before, Sidious cut down the first two jedi through sheer speed. You can go digging up your little quotes about other force users confusing other force user's anticipation all you want, they're irrelevant; Sidious didn't use such a technique; sources make it clear that it was Sidious speed that allowed him to slaughter them so easily.

Originally posted by Arhael
In fact even non-sensitive can blitz Force-sensitive:
"Fett shrugged, and then...

The next thing she knew, the wind was knocked out of her as he landed a punch in her gut. Her lightsaber was back on and slashing up across Fett's chest in a split sec-ond, unplanned; she snapped straight to instant raw instinct. Fett fell back a couple of steps. Jaina bent almost double, gasping for air as her solar plexus screamed in ag-onized protest at the punch, but she held her lightsaber out in front of her to ward him off.

"You..." Nobody had ever jumped her like that before. She hadn't sensed it coming. She struggled for breath".

Do you mind posting the entire passage. To me it seems like she wasn't expecting an attack. Her lightsaber was off, and she claims she didn't sense it coming. She was caught by surprise from how I'm reading it.

Besides, it's not impossible for an exceptional non-force user to land blows on a force user. Vizla managed to land several blows on Maul, but it doesn't change the fact that Maul had better speed and reflex on account of being a force user. Why do you think it's more common for a force user to easily cut down non-force users than it is for them to cut down another force user?

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Chances are that Sidious would struggle against Grievous more than Fisto.

LMAO

Right. Which is why Sidious was able to effortlessly cut down Fisto, a jedi who tooled Grievous. Oh, wait, I know, that's because Fisto didn't have an extra lightsaber when facing Sidious, huh? Damn, if only he had two lightsabers, he could have possibly took on Darth Sidious all by himself.
😆

You hate when I label your arguments, but yet you say shit like this. SMDH.

Originally posted by Arhael
I will now re-post this quote every time you try to lowball Kenobi based on performance against Grievous:

When do I lowball Kenobi? You said it yourself that Kenobi's performances against Grievous were all struggles.

You're just mad because Fisto, a jedi who was slaughtered by Sidious in mere seconds, gave Grievous an ass whoopin' his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries to do just as good, which would suggest that Fisto is may be on par with Kenobi. Why else would you be accusing me of lowballing Kenobi?
(Don't worry I will address your attempts to lowball Fisto, and I will be posting videos of Kenobi's performances against Greivous and I will break them down in detail hopefully soon. I've been feeling pretty chill and lazy lately and you're taking me out of my element 😛 )

Originally posted by Arhael
Windu and Kenobi are on the same boat, they both struggled against Grievous and Windu despite his aggressive style couldn't even put him on the defensive.

Windu fought Grievous on a moving train, so calling on the force to keep himself from flying off could have hampered his force speed, IDK. But we can ignore that possibility and acknowledge the fact that Grievous was intended to be a greater threat back then, as Tempest tried to explain to you. But if you want to ignore that also and the quotes that make it clear that Windu is second after Yoda in the order, we can go along with your argument and pretend that Kenobi and Fisto are on par with LOE Windu just for the sake of argument. So what? What's your point? How does that change my arguments regarding Kenobi and Fisto?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we neglect the fact that George's declaration was in response to three Jedi Masters losing to Sidious "in teh pure saberz!!1!" then yeah, sure.

Only if we neglect the facts that quote does not specify sabers, that both Maul and Opress could compete and that Anakin according to Lucas' sabers ranking is on parr with Sidious. I neglect the fact on which you base your assumption. You neglect the canon itself.

So, what you're saying is... Sidious is a level 9... and Obi-Wan is a level 8. Now, last I checked, 9 is actually greater than 8... but, by all means, we will subvert mathematical axioms to further your argument. 👆

From Kenobi's fight with Anakin it is clear that difference is very small. So there is nothing wrong with Kenobi giving comparable performance.

...Which means Obi-Wan is better in "teh pure saberz!!1!" than Mace, Ventress, Fisto, Koth, et al.? Even though Nick Gillard (or Lucas, rather) says otherwise? Setting you up to defeat yourself is terribly easy.

Hah. Twisting my argument by taking my statement out of context. I nearly fell for that. You are amazing! (Can take that out of context too).
This is my full statement:
No practitioner with single saber was able to disarm Grievous in straight fight. Kenobi is the only example as he disarmed him of two lightsabers.

My statement confines it to those who utilized single saber against Grievous, so it excludes Ventress entirely. Fisto with single saber was unable to overwhelm Grievous even with help of his Padawan. Koth is below Kenobi, so pointless of you to mention him. That lives only Windu, which stated that Kenobi's style is more suitable to defeat Grievous. So no, it doesn't mean that Kenobi is better than Windu in "teh pure saberz!!".

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your argument is illogical; there's no nicer way to put it.

I think it's equally rude for you to constantly use double standards in your arguments, and when called out on it, you get aggressive and stumble over your arguments, making excuses.


I don't use double standards and addressed your accusion long ago. My arguments are logical and are based on canon evidence but that's not the point. Ranting and showing disrespect doesn't help to resolve a debate, quite opposite. You just have to accept that we have different opinion and logic.

It does not matter if targeting the wrists are easier than the rest of the body, you would still be limiting your areas of target. And if what you are saying is true, then I'm pretty sure an expert swordsman would know this as well, and would thus try to make it harder for his opponent to target his wrists.

You don't understand combat mechanics. Vital body parts are generally out of reach during fight. If one simply chooses to attack those parts he will most likely lose. Wrists are closer target, which means they can be reached faster than head or torso. If Luke in his rage tried attack Vader in head or torso, he would need to close distance but that would give Vader time and opportunity to counterattack or at least put another block. Instead Luke attacked wrist as it was already within his reach and much safer. That is the reason why most fights end up with disarming or chopped off wrists.

In order to deal killing blow it is required to open defence of the opponent first. But ones defence is opened there is always a choice of how to end fight.

Dooku opened Kenobi's defence by overpowering him in saber lock. He could could cut off his arm, he could slice him in half, he could slice his head off but chose to deal shin wound.

Same with Yoda. Whole time Dooku's vital parts and even wrists were well out of reach. Yoda needed to create opening in his defence first before dealing any damage, which he couldn't. And that's why he didn't need to hold back because opening Dooku's defence wouldn't kill.

Oh, yes they do hold back. Not too long ago JT posted up a passage that clearly showed Kit Fisto, in a sparring session with Obi Wan Kenobi, was limiting his speed just so Kenobi could keep up. Windu also had equal sparring sessions with master Tiin (one of the masters Sidious blitzed). Would you suggest that Mace was fighting his hardest against Tiin, and that their speed is even?

So, Fisto held back to help Kenobi learn. Now can you prove that Kenobi held back? As for Windu and Tiin, I don't know specifics of the fight.

In any case, statements like Yoda and Dooku are the only ones who have ever bested Windu would make no sence, if they held back.

Another example is how Anakin tried to best Jacen and was getting frustrated, when he lost fight. If he held back, it wouldn't make sence at all.

This here actually supports what I've been saying all along, so I'm not sure why you even posted it. She was holding back a fatal blow that could have ended the fight a lot sooner had she been willing to kill him. Now, do me a favor and think about my argument regarding Sidious vs. Maul. Sidious was not wanting to kill Maul. Think about what I was saying, Arhael.

No, it doesn't support your argument. She was holding back on fatal blow but she wasn't holding back on skill, speed and strength. His defence was oppened, she had choice to deal crippling blow. Same way Dooku had choice to kill Kenobi but crippled him instead. Same way Kenobi chose to chop off Opress' and Anakin's limbs, when he could simply kill. Whether they do killing or crippling blow, it's their choice, grants the same result and does not require to hold back on skill, strength or speed.

Whether Sidious was not going to kill Maul or simply desided not to kill him at the end doesn't matter. If his lightsaber reached Maul, he could abruptly stop attack causing non-fatal wound.
But most important is that, if Sidious held back, he would not be able to outskill Maul on first place. And Maul kicking him proves that he wasn't fast enough to avoid/block it. Nowhere Filoni states Sidious holding back, it's your assumption entirely.

Just because they used their full strength when pressing against eachothers lightsaber, does not suggest they were going all out and fighting their absolute hardest. I work with mentally-challenged people, and trust me some of them are really strong individuals, and when they start acting up, it sometimes takes full strength just to restrain them without hurting them. This does not mean that I'm fighting them my absolute hardest as I would an enemy on the street. Hell, I've even seen male cops struggling to restrain my sister, possibly using a good deal of their strength, but I wouldn't suggest that they were fighting her their hardest, or that she is equal to them in a fight. When trying to prevent yourself from hurting, or, in the case of a lightsaber duel, killing, you would be holding yourself back. This is common sense, Arhael.

With same success I can say that Jedi put hardest into their attacks knowing that opponent will block it.

Your example with patients doesn't apply because you can't injure them or apply any non-lethal techniques. Jedi that doesn't want to kill, still utilizes non-lethal techniques and doesn't mind to maim his opponent.

Equally I can give my own more relevant example.
When me and my friend sparred, we were punching at full speed. But at last instance we were stopping/relaxing our hands to prevent serious damage. Same way Force users can attack full speed but cause only crippling wound. More relevant example is that we were putting our hardest on grappling techniques. Succesful techniques normally lead to opportunity to finish opponent with a punch, which we choose not to do. Same way Force user puts his hardest to penetrate opponent's defence and on success, when opponent is at his mercy, choose to deal non-killing blow.

Shortly speaking, if there is a situation that opponent's vital organs are exposed, by default non-vital ones such as wrists will be too.

But the biggest flaw in your argument is that you assume that killing techniques are more effective than non-lethal ones, which is completely untrue. Non-lethal techniques can be as effective and in many situations are better option. I tell you this from my own experience.

I can try to punch opponent as hard as possible. On success he will get knocked down. But if he dodge, it will put me off-balance and I risk to get punched back. Alternatively I can slap opponent into eyes, such attack is faster as open palm has longer reach and does not require strength at all. On success he is blinded and I can do pretty much whatever I want to him. If he dodges, I am still in balance ready to attack again or defend. Second option is much less lethal, uses no strength, yet, it is far more intelligent, effective and safer despite the fact that it requires much less effort and doesn't harm.

And example from EU:
"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet"

Dooku limited himself at attacking legs - non lethal part. He deliberetly targeted that area and he didn't even expect that any of his attacks will go through. Non-lethal attacks were consider the best option by Dooku who intended to kill Kenobi and if not for Kenobi's Soresu, it would most likely work.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you new to SW, Arhael? The average fan knows that a force user usually has the advantage of speed and reflex moreso than a non-force user. Shadow Conspiracy makes it very clear that the force gave Maul these advantages over Vizla, and yet Vizla still managed to hold his own. On the otherhand, we have Sidious blitzing two force users before they were able to react. Based on that, we can conclude that Sidious speed is above Maul's by miles, considering that the opponents he blitzed had the advantage of using the force for enhanced speed and reflex, whereas Vizla did not. And yes, as I said before, Sidious cut down the first two jedi through sheer speed. You can go digging up your little quotes about other force users confusing other force user's anticipation all you want, they're irrelevant; Sidious didn't use such a technique; sources make it clear that it was Sidious speed that allowed him to slaughter them so easily.

You said "usually", which is the same as "not always". The fact that this guy demonstrated amazing performance against one elite Force user, while those Masters got punked by another, speaks for itself.

No, it wasn't speed alone, it couldn't be. Luke in RotJ put block against a blaster bolt(which is much faster than Sidious) before it was even shot. No matter how fast Sidious is, those first two masters would put up a block before he made a swing. Sidious apparently is as unpredictable as Caedus:
"A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force."

And a source proves that it wasn't speed alone, it was "speed and dexterity". Dexterity ia synonym to ability and skill, which covers up whatever Force techniques he used to take them down. You assume that Sidious used Force speed. I assume that he confused their precognition as well.

Do you mind posting the entire passage. To me it seems like she wasn't expecting an attack. Her lightsaber was off, and she claims she didn't sense it coming. She was caught by surprise from how I'm reading it.

Besides, it's not impossible for an exceptional non-force user to land blows on a force user. Vizla managed to land several blows on Maul, but it doesn't change the fact that Maul had better speed and reflex on account of being a force user. Why do you think it's more common for a force user to easily cut down non-force users than it is for them to cut down another force user?


You are right, she did not expect. My point is that the Force did not alarm her.
Yoda did not expect clones to attack, yet, Force alarmed him. But two masters did not even react, which means that Force did not alarm them.

LMAO

Right. Which is why Sidious was able to effortlessly cut down Fisto, a jedi who tooled Grievous. Oh, wait, I know, that's because Fisto didn't have an extra lightsaber when facing Sidious, huh? Damn, if only he had two lightsabers, he could have possibly took on Darth Sidious all by himself.
😆

You hate when I label your arguments, but yet you say shit like this. SMDH.


Ironically your argument is as shit as it could be.
First, Windu (Sidious' equal) struggled against Grievous more than Fisto. Doesn't mean he is below Fisto. Same way Sidious killing Fisto so fast doesn't mean the same would happen to Grievous.

Second, Sidious did not speed blitzed Fisto, he outskilled him.

When do I lowball Kenobi? You said it yourself that Kenobi's performances against Grievous were all struggles.

You're just mad because Fisto, a jedi who was slaughtered by Sidious in mere seconds, gave Grievous an ass whoopin' his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries to do just as good, which would suggest that Fisto is may be on par with Kenobi. Why else would you be accusing me of lowballing Kenobi?
(Don't worry I will address your attempts to lowball Fisto, and I will be posting videos of Kenobi's performances against Greivous and I will break them down in detail hopefully soon. I've been feeling pretty chill and lazy lately and you're taking me out of my element 😛 )


There is so much wrong in your post.
First, you keep judging by consistency. It is irrelevant what performance Kenobi demonstrated against Grievous in past. All that matters is that in their final fight Grievous was unable to do anything to him and lost two arms.

Second, it wasn't Fisto's first try.
The first try he and his Padawan attacked Grievous from opposite sides and Grievous had no problem fending both of them off at the same time:
YouTube video

As you see Fisto's performance against Grievous is even more inconsistent than Kenobi's, which mean that either:
1. Jarkai does make it easier after all.
2. His Dun Moch worked.
3. Both of the above.

And no, Fisto can't be on parr with Kenobi.
Fisto got handled in seconds despite help from Windu who is equal of Sidious in sabers. While Kenobi held his own against Anakin who is, also, Sidious' equal in sabers.

Windu fought Grievous on a moving train, so calling on the force to keep himself from flying off could have hampered his force speed, IDK. But we can ignore that possibility and acknowledge the fact that Grievous was intended to be a greater threat back then, as Tempest tried to explain to you. But if you want to ignore that also and the quotes that make it clear that Windu is second after Yoda in the order, we can go along with your argument and pretend that Kenobi and Fisto are on par with LOE Windu just for the sake of argument. So what? What's your point? How does that change my arguments regarding Kenobi and Fisto?

You are right, Windu was calling on the Force to root himself. Yet, he then got inside train, where such exercise would not be needed. When Grievous followed him, he "faltered" and Windu used that moment to attack only to nearly lose his head. On top of that Grievous used only two sabers.
Regardless, this experience led Windu to conclude that he is not good enough to defeat Grievous.
Finally, this fight happens after all the fights from TCW, which means that Grievous not only had time to improve his skill but he improved it during fight with Windu by learning Vaapad, which made him even more dangerous foe.

In other words Tempest's attempt to dismiss canon is nothing more than a desperation.

Kenobi's and Fisto's performance against Grievous doesn't put them on parr with Windu. Fisto's performance against Grievous with single saber was low despite Nahdar helping him. Only with Jarkai, which makes it much easier to defend against multiple attacks, he did well and on top of that Grievous at the time wasn't as skilled as later. And Kenobi's style is more suitable to take on Grievous as per Windu's statement. In other words ABC logic doesn't work without considering circumstances.

Arhael
Only if we neglect the facts that quote does not specify sabers,

The B-Team lost to Sidious in "teh pure saberz!!1!"

Try again.

Arhael
that both Maul and Opress could compete

The website confirms Sidious's unwavering position of superiority and the supervising director described it as both a "butt kicking" and a fight in which Sidious "tears [the brothers] apart."

Try again.

Arhael
and that Anakin according to Lucas' sabers ranking is on parr with Sidious.

Obi-Wan's ability to hang with a disturbed Anakin under favorable circumstances does not constitute the ability to contend with Darth Sidious.

Arhael
I neglect the fact on which you base your assumption. You neglect the canon itself.

You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor

That's canon, straight from Lucas himself. As Obi-Wan is not Mace nor Yoda, you have no choice but to accept the fact that Kenobi is simply fodder for the Dark Lord.

Arhael
From Kenobi's fight with Anakin it is clear that difference is very small. So there is nothing wrong with Kenobi giving comparable performance.

It is when the absolute authority of the franchise dismisses Obi-Wan was comparable to Sidious. And when you reject a similar comparison and syllogism between Kenobi and Fisto.

Arhael
Hah. Twisting my argument by taking my statement out of context. I nearly fell for that. You are amazing! (Can take that out of context too).

It's not my fault that you're so easy to defeat. Perhaps you should construct your arguments in such a way that they are not so effortlessly turned against you?

Per your logic, single-saber!Mace is clearly no match for single-saber!Obi-Wan.

Good to know... except that it defies the Lucasian edict I provided and the one you provided.

You lose again, my son. I'll give you another attempt before I collect your concession. Make it count. 😬

Originally posted by Arhael
And a source proves that it wasn't speed alone, it was "speed [b]and dexterity". Dexterity ia synonym to ability and skill, which covers up whatever Force techniques he used to take them down. You assume that Sidious used Force speed. I assume that he confused their precognition as well.[/B]

I've addressed this twice already in the Maul brothers vs. Bane: "Sidious killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as separate events, it was lumping up the entire sequence as a whole. The first two masters didn't even react to Sidious's attack, therefore, it was sheer speed that took them out. The source shouldn't have to connect the dots for us."

Now your argument is that dexterity was referring to some ability Sidious was using to confuse their precognition? I'm beginning to think you and Nai are one and the same or related. The dark side granting Sidious "inhuman speed and dexterity" is obviously referring to his physicality, his ability to apply his speed skillfully in a saber duel, not some force technique designed to confuse precognition. Maul, during his fight with Sidious on Hypori, once mused how his rage allowed him to fight with more speed and skill than ever before. Would you suggest that Maul was referring to some ability to confuse Sidious's precognition? The complete Visual Dictionary says Sidious cut those masters down before Mace realized it, which, again, is pointing to Sidious' advantage of speed.

I may or may not get back to the rest. You're arguing for the sake of argument, and you're getting desperate to win, so I don't even know if it's worth it.

So are we in agreement that Barriss stops at one? I do not think Barriss can even beat her master since Luminara has better feats against Ventress than she does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The B-Team lost to Sidious in "teh pure saberz!!1!"

Try again.


Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, yet, he is not on the list.

Try again.

The website confirms Sidious's unwavering position of superiority and the supervising director described it as both a "butt kicking" and a fight in which Sidious "tears [the brothers] apart."

Try again.


The movie shows how they competed with him for quite long time.

Try again.

Obi-Wan's ability to hang with a disturbed Anakin under favorable circumstances does not constitute the ability to contend with Darth Sidious.

Obi-Wan's ability to hang with a rage powered Anakin under unfavorable circumstances does constitute the ability to contend with Darth Sidious.

You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor

That's canon, straight from Lucas himself. As Obi-Wan is not Mace nor Yoda, you have no choice but to accept the fact that Kenobi is simply fodder for the Dark Lord.


I have always accepted that Kenobi is fodder for him as his exceptional saber skills won't save him from Force attacks.

It is when the absolute authority of the franchise dismisses Obi-Wan was comparable to Sidious. And when you reject a similar comparison and syllogism between Kenobi and Fisto.

It is when you cling to a vague statement as last instance of your futile defense compensated by clever talk, which doesn't dismiss Obi-Wan being comparable to Sidious. And when you accept a not similar comparison between Kenobi and Fisto.

It's not my fault that you're so easy to defeat. Perhaps you should construct your arguments in such a way that they are not so effortlessly turned against you?

Per your logic, single-saber!Mace is clearly no match for single-saber!Obi-Wan.

Good to know... except that it defies the Lucasian edict I provided and the one you provided.

You lose again, my son. I'll give you another attempt before I collect your concession. Make it count. 😬


You are the only defeated, since you have nothing objective to say but twist argument inside out. Perhaps you should stop being hypocrite that deliberately takes words out of context to give it completely different meaning so every argument doesn't turn into trolling?

Per my logic Kenobi is below Windu, stop talking nonsense.

Nothing from what I said defies Lucasian edict and what I provided, stop talking nonsense.

Keep relishing your delusions, father.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I've addressed this twice already in the Maul brothers vs. Bane: "Sidious killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as separate events, it was lumping up the entire sequence as a whole. The first two masters didn't even react to Sidious's attack, therefore, it was sheer speed that took them out. The source shouldn't have to connect the dots for us."

Now your argument is that dexterity was referring to some ability Sidious was using to confuse their precognition? I'm beginning to think you and Nai are one and the same or related. The dark side granting Sidious "inhuman speed and dexterity" is obviously referring to his physicality, his ability to apply his speed skillfully in a saber duel, not some force technique designed to confuse precognition. Maul, during his fight with Sidious on Hypori, once mused how his rage allowed him to fight with more speed and skill than ever before. Would you suggest that Maul was referring to some ability to confuse Sidious's precognition? The complete Visual Dictionary says Sidious cut those masters down before Mace realized it, which, again, is pointing to Sidious' advantage of speed.

I may or may not get back to the rest. You're arguing for the sake of argument, and you're getting desperate to win, so I don't even know if it's worth it.

"unnatural dexterity and speed" is the correct quote. The first regards to abilites, which includes unpredictability, mind tricks or whatever other arcane powers Sidious possessed. He is Sith Lord that learned all known and previously unknown powers. He needed to take down masters as soon as possible, he didn't need to hold back on any techniques including confusing precognition, which is used in lightsaber combat as standard by Ka'sim and Bane who's knowledge is inherited by Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
He is Sith Lord that learned all known and previously unknown powers.

Nai was against this quote. You're using it to throw us off. lol 😛

I graciously accept your concession, child. You have failed me for the last time.

Originally posted by Arhael
You don't understand combat mechanics. Vital body parts are generally out of reach during fight. If one simply chooses to attack those parts he will most likely lose. Wrists are closer target, which means they can be reached faster than head or torso. If Luke in his rage tried attack Vader in head or torso, he would need to close distance but that would give Vader time and opportunity to counterattack or at least put another block. Instead Luke attacked wrist as it was already within his reach and much safer. That is the reason why most fights end up with disarming or chopped off wrists.

What is it that you're not understanding? I'm not arguing against your claim that targeting the wrists would be easier than the rest of the body. I'm saying that when targeting only a specific area, you would still be limiting your targets. This is a fact, no matter how much you argue against it. In a saber duel, your opponent is in constant motion, which would leave potential brief openings in many other areas of the body, many of which may be fatal, and if you pass up the opportunities to hit those areas in order to prevent yourself from killing your opponent, you would be holding back. If your opponent is trying to kill you, while your only aiming to disarm or to dismember certain body parts, your opponent would have far more openings to take advantage of, because they have not only your wrists to target, but they also have your entire body to target, which would give them a far greater chance at hitting their target. You see what I'm saying?

I just wanted to get this point cleared just in case this argument gets brought up again.

Originally posted by Arhael
While Kenobi held his own against Anakin who is, also, Sidious' equal in sabers.

Anakin is equal to Sidious based on what?

Originally posted by Arhael
Fisto's performance against Grievous with single saber was low despite Nahdar helping him.

No, it wasn't a low showing. Fisto did not struggle nor did he lose that encounter, so it wasn't an inconsistent showing at all. It is, however, a very weak attempt to lowball Fisto. We see later in that episode, that Fisto is more than capable of handling Grievous on his own using a single saber, which is basically how he ended up with a second saber to begin with--by disarming Grievous of one of his.

As for the rest, I'm done. It's not even worth it. It's clear you will continue whether you're wrong or not.

Arhael's responses have been a really interesting read.

The other 2 are predictable in their twisting of arguments and clinging to pointless information and are really not so interesting to read.

I graciously accept your concession, child. You have failed me for the last time.

What concession?
But I actually have one, I concede that it is pointless to argue with someone who turns every argument with god knows what.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it wasn't a low showing. Fisto did not struggle nor did he lose that encounter, so it wasn't an inconsistent showing at all. It is, however, a very weak attempt to lowball Fisto. We see later in that episode, that Fisto is more than capable of handling Grievous on his own using a single saber, which is basically how he ended up with a second saber to begin with--by disarming Grievous of one of his.

As for the rest, I'm done. It's not even worth it. It's clear you will continue whether you're wrong or not.


Indeed, Fisto is more than capable to handle Grievous, if he has mist to hide and taunt Grievous. Strange that he couldn't disarm Grievous of other sabers as easily.

Anakin is equal to Sidious based on what?

I guess you haven't noticed what I already posted in this thread:
This:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.

This quote applies strictly to sabers. It is direct proof that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Kenobi is one level below, which is not big difference considering that Kenobi could survive Anakin in exhaustively long fight.

And this:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

First quote proves that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Second proves that combat prowess is established by Lucas.

Finally, this:
To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

"Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence", Gillard says.

This quote is taken from "Dueling Jedi" article and talks about fight between Anakin and Kenobi. It establishes Anakin's combat prowess as 9 and it actually makes sence considering how Kenobi level 8 was barely surviving whole fight. But the nicest thing is that popular assumption that Anakin wasn't able to perform against Kenobi at his best can be thrown out in the bin as Anakin wouldn't be given lightsaber prowess level 9 for this specific performance.

What is it that you're not understanding? I'm not arguing against your claim that targeting the wrists would be easier than the rest of the body. I'm saying that when targeting only a specific area, you would still be limiting your targets. This is a fact, no matter how much you argue against it. In a saber duel, your opponent is in constant motion, which would leave potential brief openings in many other areas of the body, many of which may be fatal, and if you pass up the opportunities to hit those areas in order to prevent yourself from killing your opponent, you would be holding back. If your opponent is trying to kill you, while your only aiming to disarm or to dismember certain body parts, your opponent would have far more openings to take advantage of, because they have not only your wrists to target, but they also have your entire body to target, which would give them a far greater chance at hitting their target. You see what I'm saying?

I just wanted to get this point cleared just in case this argument gets brought up again.


You are completely clueless what you talk about.

If there is an opportunity to strike at fatal areas, it mean that hands and other non-fatal areas are equaly exposed. It's a matter of choice where to strike ones there is an opening.

And you are completely wrong to think that, the one fighting with non-lethal intend is at disadvantage. Disarming techniques are actually more effective than killing ones.

My opponent might use full strength and try to knock me down as hard as possible. In turn I will not try to knock him down at all and use only fraction of my strength. I would deliberately limit my targets to eyes, throat and knee-caps and would try grappling techniques that mostly don't harm and restrain opponent. Even if I punch, it would serve only for breaking concentration and balance and by no means to knock down. On top of that I don't dodge with body like boxer, I keep my body centered instead. And I don't block attacks either, I deflect or redirect them only. Moreover, I don't even attack, I only respond to attacks with counter techniques, the only exception is kick in the knee. Putting so many limitations and restrictions doesn't mean that I hold back. It is done for various reasons and on opposite increases my combat prowess by a lot. It is my style and that's how I achieve my best performance.

If someone would try to stab me with knife, there are various techniques to couter it. And the harder he tries to kill me, the easier it is for me to disarm him.
But if I have a knife and face skilled opponent, I will not try to stab. I will attack with short slicing moves in fast succession. It will cause sever wounds to opponent's hands as he will try to defend but not kill. Yet, it is far more effective method as it is nearly impossible to defend against such attacks, while stabbing attacks are rather easy to defend against.
And if we both have knifes, again it will be much easier for me to deal cuts to his weapon arm than for him to stab me to death.

As of SW I already provided proof of how Dooku limited himself to striking Kenobi at knees, which you chose to ignore. And I can dig much more similar examples. Lethal techniques are simply not better than non-lethal ones, whether it is real life or science fiction.

Vaapad is the most lethal style but it doesn't make it the most effective one.

Makashi style is nowhere as lethal as Vaapad or Djem So and is centered on penetrating defence and disarming, yet, it is not weaker than any other style.

Soresu lacks offensiveness almost entirely. Would you say that it means each character using it holds back? The only thing it means is that practitioner utilizes his capabilities in different way.

Ironically, Windu with his most lethal style passively defeneded against Sidious whole time:
"It was difficult to learn how to be in a scene being backed up and on defense the whole time". - Samuel L Jackson.

And Windu finished fight by executing non-lethal technique. In novel Windu chose to slice lightsaber in half, when he could simply chop his wrist off like Luke.

So knowing that Windu didn't make a single offensive move with lightsaber except non-lethal technique at the end would you say that Windu held back?

I provided more than enough canon as well as real life information that proves non-lethal combat is more effective than lethal one.

Both your and Tempest's assumption that non-intention to kill means holding back is based on lack of knowledge of fighting mechanics and biased interpretation. And both of you provided 0 evidence to support your assumption. Tempest at least spared his embarassment by not replying on the matter, hiding behind a vague quote and simply trolling. Time for you to do the same thing, if you don't want to concede on something you are outright wrong.