Barriss Offee's Gauntlet!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well his anger is useless if he wasn't using it, right?

Jeez you love stretching and grasping don't you? The script makes it perfectly clear before Dooku disposes of Anakin that Anakin is getting stronger as he gets madder.

How is that not using his anger?

Oh and it also confirms Dooku getting tired before Obi-Wan is disposed of.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You don't use this standard when arguing that Sidious was using his full speed on Maul and Savage, you just accept that he was, despite the fact that Sidious has used better speed feats at other times. You suggested that I needed a quote that says Sidious wasn't using his full speed. Well, the same goes here: I need you to prove that Anakin wasn't using his full rage against Barriss. Obviously Anakin was angry at Barriss for setting his apprentice up, and risking her life of death penalty. There was visual signs of rage and frustration on Anakin's face when he was fighting Barriss. So if you claim that Anakin was holding back his full rage, then the burden of proof would be on you, would it not?

Because Skywalker was trained to hold back on his anger smarty pants. Dooku notices that in the ROTS novel that even when he is using his anger, there's just so much Rage he's holding back on.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi had an army too. And if it was the army that Obi Wan was running from, why is he the one who wanted to fight Grievous in the first place? Obi Wan only ran after Grievous sent his ass flying against the ship. clearly, Obi Wan felt that he was outmatched, and fled.

His army was outmatched. That was made perfectly clear.

Oh yeah I'm sure Obi-Wan felt outmatched after one kick.

This is what I'm talking about. Your lowballing of Kenobi is beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
AOTC Kenobi was fighting Dooku for about 20 seconds, so I guess that suggests parity.

No, it was clear who was winning that fight. No one's ever seen that fight as equal in any way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Grievous fought Ventress for about 20 seconds, and even landed a kick on her, so I guess that also suggest parity.

He definitely posed a challenge. He is a challenge to most in pure Sabers. But she's actually the only one to defeat him wielding all 4 of his Sabers without resorting to a force attack.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress, with no lightsabers, landed several physical attacks on Anakin, and lasted for a few seconds, so I guess that suggests parity, possibly even superiority considering she didn't have her lightsabers. Ventress lasted about 20 seconds against Dooku after they both fled from Opress, so I guess that suggests parity.

Did any of those fights honestly look equal to you? Try to use some common sense on the matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So, yes I'm convinced. Maul, tapping into his full rage, managed to clash blades for a little over 20 seconds against someone who wasn't trying to kill him. This suggests that he is equal to Sidious in sheer speed, and can probably cut down three "celebrated swordsmasters" in seconds. Hmm, I wonder why he didn't just blitz Vizla.

Because he wasn't rage enhanced against Viszla.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, wait, I know: because he was wanting to impress the audience, so he put himself in very risky situations by allowing Vizla to nearly blow his body apart, instead of just ending the duel when they were saber length away from eachother.

No, I never said he held back in the Saber combat against Viszla. I said that's likely why he didn't just Force Choke him, like Opress was doing so easily to all the other Mandalorians.

Or do you think it's just a coincidence that when both Ventress and Maul challenged non-force users to honourable combat that neither of them used Force TK?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kit didn't have a hard time with him. He had Grievous on the defensive the whole fight.

No he didn't. He was hiding from him at the start. Chopped off one arm by getting him by surprise. Was unable to chop off a second arm which confirms the first one was a surprise hit.

And he only had him on the defense after a force push. Every single time Kenobi used a Force push on Grievous, Grievous just runs for his life 😂

Not that it matters. Since Kenobi would be unlikely to do that as he is a defensive fighter anyway.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
For someone who is equal to Sidious in sabers, Kenobi should have absolutely no trouble against Grievous.

I never said Sidious and Kenobi were equals. I said there's reason to compare them in Saber prowess now. And that the last 2 seasons have clearly proven that both Kenobi and Skywalker are top tier PT Saber duelists, alongside the other greats.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is just retarded. Grievous is a Jar Kai practitioner, and was trained specifically to fight jedi. However, it's not an everyday thing that a jedi fights a cyborg with four blades who can move them at angles that a jedi can not (thanks to his computer enhanced brain that allows him to coordinate all blades simultaneously). Kit had no experience with an opponent like Grievous, but he still tooled him his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries of consistent struggling to do just as good as Fisto.

You think Fisto a Council Memeber wouldn't have been thoroughly informed of Grievos's abilities. Not to mention he already saw him in action. Not to mention it's not every day GG himself goes up against Jar Kai users. Not to mention GG just killed Fisto's former padawan.

Your lowballing of Kenobi completely fails.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You also have no proof that Grievous was all that much better as of ROTS. He is not a force user, so he doesn't increase in power. Does he get a speed upgrade every month or something? How is he any better? The computer chip he has in his brain allows him to quickly adapt to the fighting style of his opponents, as it did when he was fighting Mace. Nothing has changed about him. He had the same exact advantages when he fought Kit as when he fights any other jedi. Stop reaching.

What people don't get better with training? He specifically points out his training to Obi-Wan before they fight in ROTS."You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku!"

Why would he do that if he hadn't recieved any further training since they last met?

Not to mention his analyzing of Vapaad since.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
YAnd Kenobi was tooled by her on two occasions, and a lot worse than Fisto was. So again, their performances against Ventress does not suggest that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Yes, Kenobi has bested her on occasions (whereas Fisto has never bested her), but he has also been humiliated by her in far worse ways than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

Kenobi got knocked down one time by a Rage enhanced Ventress who was able to choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan together.

Kenobi tooled Ventress shortly after she tooled Grievous in TCW Movie.

Later in TCW He's also proven himself easily a match for Maulwho is clearly > Ventress. Maul whose performance against Sidious was pretty damn good compared to Fisto's pathetic attaempt alongside a much more powerful ally.

Kenobi is simply >>> Fisto. All the evidence shows this. Again your just too arrogant to admit this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fine, I'll go along with you and ignore circumstance and context, but that would just mean Maul and Savage both suck. That's ok with me. That very same season Kenobi was fleeing from Grievous, so I guess Grievous is a greater threat than Maul and Savage combined.

LOL Go along with me? I'm the one who keeps saying WE HAVE TO INCLUDE circumstances and context. I just don't buy your fanatsy contexts.

As for Maul and Savage sucking.. They've both proven themselves >>> Fisto, Tiin and Kolar. As well as Adi, Plo Koon and Ventress.

So really you should be talking about how all of them suck.

Plus however you want to put it, the Brothers challenged Sidious in a legitimate fight (as Outright confirmed now by Dave Filoni).. Maul especially held his own. So how badly can they possibly suck?

The more reasonable assumption is:

1) It was possibly a Peak performance for Kenobi.
2) GOD FORBID That Kenobi is just That GOOD. GOD FORBID.

The official site outright confirms Anakin's superiority to Barriss in Sabers and the Force:

Barriss defends herself fiercely, but Anakin [i]batters through her parries, throws her body with the Force, and disarms her. [/i]

Before that it specifically notes how she spends the fight running from Skywalker.

But still S66 ignore canon sources, or twist them to your own ends, and carry on speculating based on whatever you desire. It's what your best at. 👆

How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious.

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

Oh they were trying to claim that Sidious was holding back against Maul and Opress, and that he could have Speed Blitzed them Superman style any second he wanted, but decided to do a cocky dance and play around instead.

They also expect us to believe that because Maul said to Obi-Wan in The Lawless that "I never planned on killing you," that Maul and Opress were obviously holding back on Kenobi when they fought.

So because a few of us were not accepting that, they're now arguing in a fashion that assumes no one ever holds back so as to mock us.(A lot of childish shit like that goes on over here).

Apart from the fact that Jedi restraint exists for Jedi, but not so much for Sith, they're forgetting the fact that we actually refer to canon sources on the subject as well.

So tbh I really don't care if Anakin was actually holding back or not, because the official site makes it perfectly clear he was superior to Barriss in every way.

As it makes clear that Sidious was superior to Maul and Opress. But also between the Site and Dave Filoni's comments it's clearly suggested Sidious wasn't holding back at all. Whilst the idea of him holding back is not suggested by any official source on the subject anywhere.

And Dave Filoni has confirmed that Obi-Wan legitimately defeated Maul and Opress.

Since certain members here can't take all that evidence they will just keep being childish about it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious.

Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh they were trying to claim that Sidious was holding back against Maul and Opress, and that he could have Speed Blitzed them Superman style any second he wanted, but decided to do a cocky dance and play around instead.

They also expect us to believe that because Maul said to Obi-Wan in The Lawless that "I never planned on killing you," that Maul and Opress were obviously holding back on Kenobi when they fought.

So because a few of us were not accepting that, they're now arguing in a fashion that assumes no one ever holds back so as to mock us.(A lot of childish shit like that goes on over here).

Apart from the fact that Jedi restraint exists for Jedi, but not so much for Sith, they're forgetting the fact that we actually refer to canon sources on the subject as well.

So tbh I really don't care if Anakin was actually holding back or not, because the official site makes it perfectly clear he was superior to Barriss in every way.

As it makes clear that Sidious was superior to Maul and Opress. But also between the Site and Dave Filoni's comments it's clearly suggested Sidious wasn't holding back at all. Whilst the idea of him holding back is not suggested by any official source on the subject anywhere.

And Dave Filoni has confirmed that Obi-Wan legitimately defeated Maul and Opress.

Since certain members here can't take all that evidence they will just keep being childish about it.

You seem frustrated.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

👆

Originally posted by -Pr-
You seem frustrated.

😠

Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

I don't disagree with any of this.

In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Hah. Same way I can say that you have no proof that characters that don't intend to kill hold back and you are in no position to determine who and when is holding back.

Hmm. I said more or less the same thing about Sidious' performance against brothers and that's all you say is not proof but speculation and assumptions. Since when you adapted my tone?

😆
Wow, you completely missed it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Illogical? You are now labeling my arguments? Would you feel nice, if I showed the same disrespect to you? Why do you come to this forum? To discuss or to rant?

Your argument is illogical; there's no nicer way to put it.

I think it's equally rude for you to constantly use double standards in your arguments, and when called out on it, you get aggressive and stumble over your arguments, making excuses.

Originally posted by Arhael
First, targeting wrist is not limiting, on opposite it makes things easier.

It does not matter if targeting the wrists are easier than the rest of the body, you would still be limiting your areas of target. And if what you are saying is true, then I'm pretty sure an expert swordsman would know this as well, and would thus try to make it harder for his opponent to target his wrists.

Originally posted by Arhael
The fact is that even during training sparrings Force users don't hold back on speed and strength and I can actually give evidence to that:

Oh, yes they do hold back. Not too long ago JT posted up a passage that clearly showed Kit Fisto, in a sparring session with Obi Wan Kenobi, was limiting his speed just so Kenobi could keep up. Windu also had equal sparring sessions with master Tiin (one of the masters Sidious blitzed). Would you suggest that Mace was fighting his hardest against Tiin, and that their speed is even?

Originally posted by Arhael
"She deftly sidestepped the thrust and returned with a parry of her own as he stumbled to regain his balance. [b]Had he been a real enemy, she could have finished him then, but she pulled her blade aside for a split second, just to demonstrate that Jacen had let his guard drop-a lesson a Jedi Knight would need to learn to avoid defeat."[/B]

This here actually supports what I've been saying all along, so I'm not sure why you even posted it. She was holding back a fatal blow that could have ended the fight a lot sooner had she been willing to kill him. Now, do me a favor and think about my argument regarding Sidious vs. Maul. Sidious was not wanting to kill Maul. Think about what I was saying, Arhael.

Originally posted by Arhael
This shows that practitioners use their full strength against each other. Tenel Ka used all her strength and, yet, pressed even harder than that.
Their fight was described as "tense battle".

Just because they used their full strength when pressing against eachothers lightsaber, does not suggest they were going all out and fighting their absolute hardest. I work with mentally-challenged people, and trust me some of them are really strong individuals, and when they start acting up, it sometimes takes full strength just to restrain them without hurting them. This does not mean that I'm fighting them my absolute hardest as I would an enemy on the street. Hell, I've even seen male cops struggling to restrain my sister, possibly using a good deal of their strength, but I wouldn't suggest that they were fighting her their hardest, or that she is equal to them in a fight. When trying to prevent yourself from hurting, or, in the case of a lightsaber duel, killing, you would be holding yourself back. This is common sense, Arhael.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

There isn't parity.

How do you at least establish tiers, then?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How do you at least establish tiers, then?

I don't do it just by who wins a fight, like Kurupt Thanos is insisting on.

That would mean Mace > Sidious > Yoda>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin.

That kind of logic I'm just never going to buy.

Context of how a fight starts and why it is taking place is one. Environment in where a fight takes place is another. Then there's consistent showings. And another one is higher end showings.

Also statements from canon sources always help.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

You seem frustrated.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

PR, you've stepped into the middle of a first-class trolling. Tempest is using this to undermine a different argument regarding (who else?) Darth Sidious.

At least one of the parties to this argument is being particularly disingenuous.

Originally posted by Zampanó
PR, you've stepped into the middle of a first-class trolling. Tempest is using this to undermine a different argument regarding (who else?) Darth Sidious.

At least one of the parties to this argument is being particularly disingenuous.

That was the impression I was getting, but I'm semi-new to this forum so wanted to ask anyway.

This suggests that he is equal to Sidious in sheer speed, and can probably cut down three "celebrated swordsmasters" in seconds. Hmm, I wonder why he didn't just blitz Vizla.

In fact even non-sensitive can blitz Force-sensitive:
"Fett shrugged, and then...

The next thing she knew, the wind was knocked out of her as he landed a punch in her gut. Her lightsaber was back on and slashing up across Fett's chest in a split sec-ond, unplanned; she snapped straight to instant raw instinct. Fett fell back a couple of steps. Jaina bent almost double, gasping for air as her solar plexus screamed in ag-onized protest at the punch, but she held her lightsaber out in front of her to ward him off.

"You..." Nobody had ever jumped her like that before. She hadn't sensed it coming. She struggled for breath".

For someone who is equal to Sidious in sabers, Kenobi should have absolutely no trouble against Grievous.

I will now re-post this quote every time you try to lowball Kenobi based on performance against Grievous:

Originally posted by Arhael
"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.

Clearly, Grievous - - onetime courageous commander of sentient troops - - realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous - - current commander of droids and other war machines - - wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades. Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell,
"

So lets gather facts:
1. Grievous used only two lightsabers, not four.
2. Barely he activated them Mace was all over him trying to take him down with unusual aggression for a Jedi.
3. Grievous attacks were as forceful as any Windu ever had to counter.
4. Windu was astonished by his speed.
5. Grievous didn't know Vaapad, which was giving advantage to Windu. And it still didn't help, Grievous simply learned it on the go.
6. Windu wasn't interested in prolonging the contest and started retreating despite the fact that Kit Fisto already finished Magnaguards.
7. As Grievous jumped after Windu and "faltered", Windu tried to take full advantage of that and attacked... only to nearly lose his head and jump away as well as give a Force push.

It couldn't be more obvious that Windu tried his hardest and still his performance against Grievous is nowhere as impressive as Fisto's. And this fight was enough for Windu to conclude that not him nor Yoda are good enough to defeat Grievous and that Kenobi is the best contender. 💃

Windu and Kenobi are on the same boat, they both struggled against Grievous and Windu despite his aggressive style couldn't even put him on the defensive.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That was the impression I was getting, but I'm semi-new to this forum so wanted to ask anyway.

Your obviously a SW fan. How come you've never been here in the past?

Too busy moderating the Comic Book forum?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How do you at least establish tiers, then?

A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.

Originally posted by Arhael
You forgot to include words "assumptions", "speculation", "lowballing", "dismissing", "ignoring" and trolling"" in your formula.

You're absolutely precious when angry. Tell me again how Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious despite not being named as such by Lucas. 😂