Arhael
But I actually have one, I concede
👆
Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. 🙂
Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. 😂
Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. 🙂
Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. 😂
Originally posted by Arhael
But I actually have one, I concede that it is pointless to argue with someone who turns every argument with god knows what.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. 🙂
Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. 😂
Originally posted by ArhaelFinally, this:
To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.
"Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence", Gillard says.
This quote is taken from "Dueling Jedi" article and talks about fight between Anakin and Kenobi. It establishes Anakin's combat prowess as 9 and it actually makes sence considering how Kenobi level 8 was barely surviving whole fight. But the nicest thing is that popular assumption that Anakin wasn't able to perform against Kenobi at his best can be thrown out in the bin as Anakin wouldn't be given lightsaber prowess level 9 for this specific performance.
💃
Originally posted by -Pr-
If only the movies or the shows/eu stuff actually reflected that.
The point of the levels were to choreograph the fights for the movies. They apply to what would happen on a level playing field, in a one on one fight.
However the actual results of the fights were affected by those other variables: Other combatants and uneven terrains.
I wouldn't mix those levels with the EU. As far as I'm concerned it just gives us an idea of the levels the ROTS combatants were on compared to each other at that time period.
However I'm not aware of the EU clearly contradicting any of it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They're skills were always pretty even. But Anakin was always stronger/more powerful which was why he's always been a bigger threat to tackle for other opponents - Dooku, Ventress.Could be Kenobi's skill set is just the perfect fit to fight Anakin.
As I said in other threads, I always felt that while Anakin was more powerful in the force, Obi-Wan is a better skilled duelist. I'll always think, too, that a large part of Anakin beating Dooku is his physical strength and aggression.
I realize. Mine was a petty taunt designed to agitate Arhael further. I am exercising my privilege as eternal victor.
You accused me of being wrong to judge sabers separately and saying that anyone other than Windu and Yoda can't compete Sidious "on any level". You even demanded apology. So much arrogance. And it turned out that you were the one wrong as Anakin who is not on the list of that Vague quote is on parr with Sidious specifically in lightsaber fighting prowess.
You kept speculating that characters hold back, if they don't intend to kill. Such assumtion is not only completely unsupported in EU but it shows that you don't know shit about combat mechanics. Your clever talk cannot desguise your incompetence on the matter.
You even went as far as tried to dismiss canon regarding Grievous because in your opinion built on ignorance he is "not a threat for real Jedi". Specifically, in evaluating performance of Fisto against Grievous you deliberately ignore obvious fact that using two lightsabers makes it much easier to defend against multiple attacks despite overwhelming evidence suggesting it. Somehow it escapes your mind that it is impossible to block simultanious attacks from different sides with single saber.
You constantly judge others calling them unreasonable and hypocrites and sometimes even rightfully so. Yet, you do the same things as them, sometimes even worse.
At the end of the day I am very satisfied with the outcome. I supported my points as well as refuted your ones with specific (not vague) canon evidence, while all you did is kept ignoring and dismissing things with nothing specific to back it up as well as twisting arguments. I explored new things and evidence I wasn't aware of, so debate purpose is fulfilled.
Arhael
Agitate? Do you really think that your taunts actually work? All you did is provoked me to dig deeper and find more evidence to destroy your already weak argument.
I know my taunts worked; you went out of the way to address them here. If they were truly harmless or you couldn't have cared less, you'd have ignored them as I do SW_LeGeND or POWER.
Arhael
You even went as far as tried to dismiss canon regarding Grievous because in your opinion built on ignorance he is "not a threat for real Jedi".
We've been through this already, sweetheart. When I find the quote, I'll produce it; if I can't, you'll get an apology and concession.
Arhael
Specifically, in evaluating performance of Fisto against Grievous you deliberately ignore obvious fact that using two lightsabers makes it much easier to defend against multiple attacks despite overwhelming evidence suggesting it. Somehow it escapes your mind that it is impossible to block simultanious attacks from different sides with single saber.
Not true. But I appreciate your clumsy use of dishonesty; it vindicates my treatment of you. 👆
Arhael
At the end of the day I am very satisfied with the outcome.
As am I, my friend. As am I. 🙂
You must be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor
Obi-Wan is a level 8. Sidious is a level 9
We've been through this already, sweetheart. When I find the quote, I'll produce it; if I can't, you'll get an apology and concession.
Let me know, when you find. Untill then I have privilage of accusing you of unreasonably and baselessly dismissing canon. There is a reason why people make sure they have solid evidence before rushing to such bold conclusions.
Not true. But I appreciate your clumsy use of dishonesty; it vindicates my treatment of you. 👆
Here you demonstrate your ignorance with sarcasm:
Originally posted by The_Tempest The brothers stomp.One blade!Sidious cannot hope to match, let alone defeat, four blade!Zabraks. Only by divine intervention, perhaps by channeling the spirit of the great Barriss Offee, could the Dark Lord hope to secure a victory.
And here you support argument of KuRuPT Thanosi who argued that using two weapons doesn't help against multiple opponents:
👆
This. Filoni flat out says in the commentary of "The Lawless" that Sidious used two lightsabers because it looked cool to the audience.
And you are calling me dishonest.
To understand why Grievous have advantage against single saber users you need to understand combat mechanics. Fencer with single weapon cannot block simultanious attacks of oponent with two weapons. For that reason he has no choice but to fight defensively, constantly giving ground. This is the advantage of Jarkai. This is the reason why Dooku in AotC constantly moved backward from Anakin with two weapons.
On the other hand using two weapons practitioner lacks strength and has to split focus on two weapons. For these reasons despite ability to attack and block more, this style does not make it easier to defeat single saber wielder.
But, when considering Grievous, it is not quite the same. Blocking one weapon and dodging another is not that hard. But when you block one weapon and need to dodge 3 more, things become much more complicated.
Jarkai guards practitioner from both sides, so practitioner can block more and dodge less significantly mitigating Grievous' advantage.
Simply speaking having only one saber Jedi has no choice but fight defencively against Grievous. Kenobi, Koth and Adi Galia were all driven back by Grievous. There is no single example, where someone could actually put Grievous on defensive with single saber.
Vaapad is a lethal style requiring to fight offensively, main advantage of style is wasted since Windu would be on the defensive for the most part. That's why Soresu is better option as it excels at defensive fighting - the most suitable way to fight someone with more weapons like Grievous.
You must be Yoda or Mace to compete with the EmperorObi-Wan is a level 8. Sidious is a level 9
Arhael
It takes you long time to find it though.
Consider this an exercise in patience. Perhaps you could use the downtime to refine your tenuous grasp of the English language and general reading comprehension?
Arhael
So there you accept the idea that it helps to defend against attacks from multiple angles and I hadn't seen it.
Indeed. If I may redirect you to your own proffered wisdom,
Arhael
There is a reason why people make sure they have solid evidence before rushing to such bold conclusions.
👆
Arhael
Yet, when evaluating Sidious's performance, you gave 0 wait to the fact that he used 2 sabers. At no point you acknowledged that using two sabers increased his chances of defeating brothers.
Because I don't subscribe to the retarded RPG paradigm that the presence of multiple lightsabers works as a colossal skill multiplier.
Arhael
And Anakin is a level 9, which proves that your interpretation of first quote is wrong.
Not really, no.
Arhael
And Kenobi demonstrated that level 8 is more than enough to comete level 9 in sabers.
Kenobi demonstrated that his level 8 is more than enough to compete with a particular level 9 individual who happens to not be Sidious, who (per Lucas) would utterly annihilate Obi-Wan with impunity.
Your convoluted syllogisms are trumped by direct statement from canon's highest authority.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Consider this an exercise in patience. Perhaps you could use the downtime to refine your tenuous grasp of the English language and general reading comprehension?
Because I don't subscribe to the retarded RPG paradigm that the presence of multiple lightsabers works as a colossal skill multiplier.
Lord Nyax with 8 lightsabers could defend against Luke, Mara, Tahiri and Yuuzhan Vongs surrounding him from all sides. - Impossible feat for any single weapon wielder.
Right at begining Nyax demonstrated how having multiple lightsabers gives better defense and offense capabilities:
"Luke raised his lightsaber, caught the downward sweep of Lord Nyax's right-hand forearm weapon. He spun clockwise, narrowing his profile as the left-hand forearm blade thrust toward him, and kept his guard up in time to intercept the right-hand elbow blade. Mara leapt forward, unleashing two fast blows that the thing's left-elbow blade caught, then folded over nearly double as she leaped back from a strike from its left knee."
Not really, no.
Kenobi demonstrated that his level 8 is more than enough to compete with a particular level 9 individual who happens to not be Sidious, who (per Lucas) would utterly annihilate Obi-Wan with impunity.Your convoluted syllogisms are trumped by direct statement from canon's highest authority.
Arhael
Don't need to, I have you to correct me whenever I make a mistake.
A full time job, it would seem.
Arhael
Ones again you dismiss without any substantial evidence to back it up.
I explained months ago that the use of multiple lightsabers can provide a specific advantage in fending off attacks from multiple angles.
You can consider that a blank cheque for martial superiority all you like, but as Tzeentch. explained elsewhere, it would also be a disadvantage in some respects.
Trying to package Jar'Kai as the end all be all in combat is a futile effort.
Arhael
In other words you have nothing to say on the matter.
According to what you said others than Yoda and Windu can't compete Sidious "on any level". You assumed that this vague quote mean that Sidious is better than others in every way. Anakin having equal saber prowess is direct proof that you were wrong and your apology demands were rude and unreasonable.
Nowhere is Anakin said to be Sidious's "equal" in lightsaber combat.
Arhael
Level 9 is level 9.
Fortunately, Obi-Wan is a level 8 and therefore lesser than Sidious in swordsmanship. 😉
Arhael
The bigger part of the fight with Anakin was on even ground. If it was Sidious, the only significant difference would be that Sidious can easily Force handle him. Lucas never stated that Kenobi would be utterly annihilated by Sidious in sabers, the way you interpret a vague quote doesn't make it so.
It's already been exhaustively established by users such as Galan007, Lucien, and others that Anakin's performance on Mustafar was relatively sub-par.
If Sidious were a fresh convert to the dark side and under extreme emotional and psychological duress, then you might have a point. But, as is often the case, you don't.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
A full time job, it would seem.
I explained months ago that the use of multiple lightsabers can provide a specific advantage in fending off attacks from multiple angles.You can consider that a blank cheque for martial superiority all you like, but as Tzeentch. explained elsewhere, it would also be a disadvantage in some respects.
Trying to package Jar'Kai as the end all be all in combat is a futile effort.
If he used only one saber, his strength advantage and superior precognition would be wasted because he would need to do more movements to defend himself, living him no opportunities to counter-attack.
In general because he used Jar'Kai, brothers didn't have a single advantage that could give them a chance to win. It is better to have no disadvantages, then having advantage in one area, while suffer from another disadvantage that puts you at risk of losing fight.
Same with Grievous. When Jedi has one weapon, it requires much more effort to defend and gives little to no opportunity to counter-attack. By using Jar'Kai, while losing strength, Jedi mitigates Grievous' main advantage, which is overwhelming opponent with multiple attacks and gives more opportunities to expose Grievous' disadvantages.
Nowhere is Anakin said to be Sidious's "equal" in lightsaber combat.
Fortunately, Obi-Wan is a level 8 and therefore lesser than Sidious in swordsmanship. 😉
It's already been exhaustively established by users such as Galan007, Lucien, and others that Anakin's performance on Mustafar was relatively sub-par.If Sidious were a fresh convert to the dark side and under extreme emotional and psychological duress, then you might have a point. But, as is often the case, you don't.
"Hayden worked really hard", Gillard says. "He did six hours of sword fighting every day with us, then he did two hours of training“ an hour solid of weights and an hour of cardiovascular work. And he had to eat about six times a day!"
Sub-parr performance wouldn't need so much effort to choreograph. Windu's and Sidious' performance was far inferior to what Anakin and Kenobi demonstrated as per film.