Mace Windu vs Kas'im

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
[list=1]
[*]Are you cereal? Kas'im memorized every possible combination between the different Forms of lightsaber combat. He completely mastered all of the different techniques, apparently in both the saber staff and dual-saber variants. To say that his skill, if not overall combat efficiency is anything less than exceptional within the saga is some sort of oversight.
[*]I found a reply on this topic from a long time ago. I seem to have not been infected with retard at that point (Faunus still had it so I was safe) and I may or may not have posted it. It still makes sense though so I'll post it again.[/list]

Me:
[b]Kas'im vs. Mace Windu.

There is no doubt that these are some of the best lightsaber duelists in the saga. Mace Windu created his own form- ostensibly more deadly than the classical forms and tailor made to his temperament. Kas'im mastered all seven extant forms of lightsaber combat, and memorized every possible combination of those styles to become not only the Brotherhood's lightsaber instructor, but the deadliest duelist of his era.

Kas'im
Force
Kas'im has an abundance of skill, but his force powers are considered weak. This isn't really fair, as the only role we saw him in was one of a saber instructor. He was able to fully defend himself from a TK attack powerful enough to "shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." (PoD) This same blast was powerful enough to vaporize the temple around him: "The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone". (PoD) Kas'im's defense against this came after he had been all but defeated by Bane in the first half of their duel- He was far from fresh.

There is more to combat, however, than skill. There is power. So far, none of Kas’im’s feats put him on par with Windu- Kas’im has virtually no force feats to speak of. However, as many like to point out: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. In this case we don’t even have absence of proof. Kas’im was capable of blocking an enraged and desperate Darth Bane’s force wave completely. The concussive force of the portion of the blast that hit him was enough to ‘shatter every bone in his body’, yet his shield was sufficient to protect himself fully. None of Mace Windu’s feats are more powerful than this blast- even his Crush of Grievous’s armor doesn’t compare- the sheer destruction of Darth Bane is beyond Windu’s capabilities. Kas’im would be able to defend himself from any Force attack Mace throws at him.

Kas'im himself states '"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force.' in PoD during his training sessions with Bane. This appears to have been the focus of his combat mentality: an emphasis on technique can outweigh a disparity in Force strength.

Also, as a token showing of his basic competence in TK, note that he is able to ‘blast a wall open’ while facing a ‘in the zone’ PoD Bane. This was during the portion of the duel in which he was on the defense, and the ability to muster a concussive force sufficient to demolish a wall.

Saber
He was the master of all seven forms. He invented the sequences that many of the Brotherhood- including Darth Bane- used during their lightsaber combat, even with Jedi. There is even some evidence that the 'sequences' outlived him- the description of Darth Zannah's form indicate that Bane taught her sequences. "In the split second it took to roll her wrists and start the intricate, whirling patterns of her blades again, she was vulnerable." (RoT) Kas'im's influence extended past his own lifetime. His technical abilities surpass Mace’s, who has not been confirmed to have mastered all 7 forms.

Combat
As we saw in the second stage of his duel with Bane, Kas’im is an incredibly deadly duelist. His Jar’Kai put Bane off guard, yes, but Kas’im at least as fast as Bane, despite the disparity in Force strength.. His mastery over dual-wielding puts him in with the likes of Bondara and Dooku, and his technique may even rival Yoda’s.

[/old me]

The qualifier in the quote under contention, 'perhaps' seems to me to be a mere rhetorical flourish. While Drew's writing leaves much to be desired, he is certainly adept at spinning a hyperbolic assertion into an eloquent phrase. The word 'perhaps' adds intensity to the confrontation with Bane- will the apprentice surpass the master? (cue power rangers teaser...)

To say that the accolade is irrelevant because of the artistic license is silly. Taken at face value, even if we deny that he is the best ever, to be in contention is absolutely stunning.

LS, he is the greatest in the galaxy now. 'Maybe the greatest ever' does not imply a time period- there does not seem to be anything that prevents this from being a prediction as well. It doesn't have anything like 'maybe the greatest yet.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace > Sidious > Bane

Sorry! I forgot: it's:

Mace > Sidious > Bane > Kas'im

What?

How did Mace die?

EDIT: Speaking of which: AIDS. That is all.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry! I forgot: it's:

Mace > Sidious > Bane > Kas'im

Originally posted by Nephthys
How did Mace die?

EDIT: Speaking of which: AIDS. That is all.

Ohhh....

jokawer See, it's all part of the plan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also worth noting that Bane was nowhere near his best and throwing out a quick, desperate, unfocused attack.

Quick? It's explicitly stated that he had been gathering energies for that very attack during Kas'im's speech, to such an extent that it left him drained directly afterwards. It's also worth noting that Kas'im was caught completely off guard by that attack, and was forced to conjure up a rushed defence at "the last possible instant."

A focused assault would be something different entirely more than like.

From Bane, yes. Mace hasn't demonstrated anything that would suggest he's even approaching Bane in Force Power, even at that point in time. What you're essentially saying is that if Character A can produce such an effect under poor circumstances, it's more than likely that Character B can automatically produce a greater effect under better circumstances, which is flawed.

Kas'im's talent in the force is not near others of his era, so rather than improve that, he focused on the saber to even the scales.

A ridiculous assumption. This isn't even implied in the novel.

Sabers are not limited to technical ability, where Mace rivals Kas'im. Mace has to be a master of multiple high end forms to master Form VII, his strength and speed are major factors, as well as his force power and he uses a form alien to Ka'sim and one he himself invented. The disparity with sabers is not a great one.

Kas'im mastered all seven forms for all three major variations of the lightsabers (which by extension would include high end mastery in multiple forms (and likely all [- Juyo] if Kas'im were to have progressed consistently with each form before beginning his Juyo training)) in less than ten years (as the context makes clear), and then went on to perfect his skills for decades. Mace doesn't even come close, can't be said to have any real familiarity with a lot of what Kas'im can bring to the table (such as the saber staff as a weapon itself, let alone all 7 forms under it), and from a technical standpoint, has Vaapad ever been stated to actually be different from Juyo? At best it's a technical improvement, making the form only partially alien to Kas'im.

Nothing Kas'im wields can come as a total surprise to Mace

Show me where Mace is shown to possess familiarity with all seven forms for all three major variations of lightsaber combat. What was that? You can't? Oh yeah, that's right, so you're not in a position to claim that Kas'im wouldn't be able to catch Mace off guard with the techniques at his disposal. Which by all available evidence, he can, given the sheer scale of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and the lack thereof of what Mace can be proven or suggested to be familiar with.

leaving it as skill against skill.

Which Mace loses in miserably.

Yes, he is the best swordsman alive at the time. The problem is, this IS Bane's POV speaking as it is mentioned right after 'Bane knew he could not win.'

Again, no it isn't. The entire passage deals with information of a very intimate and detailed nature that Bane isn't in a position to know about. That it's said "Bane knew he could not win" wouldn't necessarily mean that it's coming indirectly from Bane (as the ON is in a position to speak directly about a character's feelings, realisations, perceptions etc...), and as I've established, the specific details in question that the paragraph goes over would make it an impossibility that the passage was coming indirectly from Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also worth noting that Bane was nowhere near his best and throwing out a quick, desperate, unfocused attack. A focused assault would be something different entirely more than like.

Path of Destruction

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.
There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

This is speculation based upon a single instance of, again, a single wild attack that left Kas'im unable to escape the temple's ruin and given his speed and reflexes, we can assume he did not weather the attack right there. A focused attack from Mace will be a different story entirely

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And Mace is possessed of both. Kas'im's talent in the force is not near others of his era, so rather than improve that, he focused on the saber to even the scales. Mace has no such disadvantage.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

He blew open a side chamber. I would expect this of any combatant. Also, he blew off a side door, not a wall

So anyway, the point is that he is not incapable of using the Force. He appears to be average. While one should not hope to compete with Mace Windu while being 'average' in anything, the areas he excels in are specified to be sufficient to make up for his deficiencies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Sabers are not limited to technical ability, where Mace rivals Kas'im. Mace has to be a master of multiple high end forms to master Form VII, his strength and speed are major factors, as well as his force power and he uses a form alien to Ka'sim and one he himself invented. The disparity with sabers is not a great one.

If this doesn't make sense I'll try again, but Mace's accolades simply don't sound as good to me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Don't forget a big part of this is Bane's unfamiliarity with Jar'Kai. Nothing Kas'im wields can come as a total surprise to Mace, leaving it as skill against skill.

In a fight with Windu this will manifest itself as stunning swordplay that compensates for Mace's superior speed. As Kas'im does not draw on the Force in the same manner as Sidious the SL will not apply. Mace will be fighting an enemy capable of outdueling him that he cannot overwhelm with speed or Force strength. It is a bad combination for Mace. None of his unique advantages apply here.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Yes, he is the best swordsman alive at the time. The problem is, this IS Bane's POV speaking as it is mentioned right after 'Bane knew he could not win.' Moreover, this is a statement given directly to the point in time and just like Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the powerful, it does not apply to the future.

First, the material.
Amazon has this quote:

He was the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.

Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

Kas'im's quote is very different. The ON is describing Bane's thoughts (he knew he couldn't win) and explaining them. In doing so, he goes beyond what Bane could hope to know- namely, Kas'im's life goal and relative skill level. Having Bane call Kas'im the 'greatest swordsman in the Galaxy' is silly- he is in no position to make that judgment. So it is OOU material.

Next, the lifespan of the accolade. 'He had become the Greatest swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.' Note the use of definite language for 'best in the galaxy' while the more audacious claim is only a speculation. 'Ever' is an indefinite timeperiod but it does not exclude the future- I wouldn't say "the battle of Helm's Deep was the most bloody battle ever in history" when I knew (as an omniscient narrator) that the Pelennor Fields was yet to occur. I wouldn't say 'I am the (brother of the) best Super Smash Brothers player ever' without meaning future too. 'Ever' carries an vagueness that implies a future duration too.

You are slowly losing my faith in you, Nebaris. Vaapad is a higher extention of Juyo that earned its own entry in the Essential Guide to the Force, due to the mentality and discipline required. They aren't the same thing, since Windu invented Vaapad. You can't invent something that is already created and in constant use. Do not imply that they are the same thing; Vaapad is, by all accounts, more deadly than any form Kas'im can bring to the table. It is incontrovertible. Moreover, given that Mace is a "high end master of multiple forms", you will need to provide proof that he's automatically unfamiliar with Kas'im's ability.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Kas'im's quote is very different. The ON is describing Bane's thoughts (he knew he couldn't win) and explaining them. In doing so, he goes beyond what Bane could hope to know- namely, Kas'im's life goal and relative skill level. Having Bane call Kas'im the 'greatest swordsman in the Galaxy' is silly- he is in no position to make that judgment. So it is OOU material.

Is it your testimony that claims cannot be made in narrative unless it is absolute fact or the characters are in positions to know it for certain?

Originally posted by Gideon
Is it your testimony that claims cannot be made in narrative unless it is absolute fact or the characters are in positions to know it for certain?

I think that in this case, where the details of the alleged in-character supposition are so exact and so assertive that it is foolish to write the passage off as in-universe, fallible belief without some evidence that suggests inaccuracy.

The passage has an intimate knowledge of Kas'im's life and capabilities that exceeds that which we can reasonably assume Bane had. The tone of authority suggests a narrator, not a window into the character's thoughts.

(I would not 'testify' that characters cannot simply be wrong, but this case doesn't sound like a character at all.)

Hey, I'm not judging you or condemning you. I think it's a bullshit idea, but if you can make a credible argument, I get to use Vader's belief that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. Either way, I win.

Originally posted by Gideon
Hey, I'm not judging you or condemning you. I think it's a bullshit idea, but if you can make a credible argument, I get to use Vader's belief that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. Either way, I win.

Except that this isn't Bane's idea. It is the narrator expounding on why 'within a few passes, Bane knew he couldn't win.' That was his internal thought, but the rest is the ON explaining it. The part in question =/= Vader's musings on Palpatine.

(Do you really need that quote though?)

I'm referring strictly to the statement that Kas'im is the greatest swordsman ever. I'm siding with LS on this one. It's a dubious claim, but no matter the outcome, I win.

...

Originally posted by Gideon
You are slowly losing my faith in you, Nebaris.

😐

Vaapad is a higher extention of Juyo that earned its own entry in the Essential Guide to the Force, due to the mentality and discipline required. They aren't the same thing, since Windu invented Vaapad. You can't invent something that is already created and in constant use. Do not imply that they are the same thing;

As I thought was pretty obvious, I was speaking purely from a technical perspective when I said that. In sheer swordplay, has Vaapad ever been documented to even be different than Juyo?

Vaapad is, by all accounts, more deadly than any form Kas'im can bring to the table. It is incontrovertible.

From a technical standpoint, it hasn't even been proven that Mace's Vaapad is at all different to Kas'im's Juyo.

Not to mention this is largely irrelevant given that Kas'im doesn't rely on any one particular form, but rather, all of them. Having what is clearly high end mastery of all seven forms for all three major variations of the lightsaber easily makes Kas'im the more effective, and deadlier swordsman of the two. By all accounts, it isn't even close.

Moreover, given that Mace is a "high end master of multiple forms", you will need to provide proof that he's automatically unfamiliar with Kas'im's ability.

1. Lightsnake was the one to make the claim that Kas'im, undeniably speaking, can't surprise Mace with anything. I was asking him to provide proof for the claim. No such proof required on my part, as I did not claim that Mace would undeniably be unfamiliar with anything at Kas'im's disposal.

2. What I will say now, and what I have said on other threads, is that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with everything at Kas'im's disposal. Given the nature of these versus threads, where we use all available evidence to form the most logical conclusion, that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, or even logically suggested to be, it's more likely than not that he would be largely unfamiliar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and it's more likely than not that Kas'im would be fully capable of surprising him with a lot of what he can bring to the table.

Originally posted by Balmung
...

😐

Jesus, that was the perfect opportunity for you to use the "lack of faith" line from ANH. Get your head in the game!

As I thought was pretty obvious, I was speaking purely from a technical perspective when I said that. In sheer swordplay, has Vaapad ever been documented to even be different than Juyo?

Possibly. The Complete Encyclopedia says that users of Vaapad opened themselves to the Force so fully that they drew power from both the light and dark side, which could definitely alter, augment, and change overall ability.

From a technical standpoint, it hasn't even been proven that Mace's Vaapad is at all different to Kas'im's Juyo.

It is considered an extension, an improvement. Are extensions and improvements identical to that which they originate?

Not to mention this is largely irrelevant given that Kas'im doesn't rely on any one particular form, but rather, all of them. Having what is clearly high end mastery of all seven forms for all three major variations of the lightsaber easily makes Kas'im the more effective, and deadlier swordsman of the two. By all accounts, it isn't even close.

And you have some conclusive proof suggesting that Windu is completely unfamiliar with all of this? I find that unlikely.

1. Lightsnake was the one to make the claim that Kas'im, undeniably speaking, can't surprise Mace with anything. I was asking him to provide proof for the claim. No such proof required on my part, as I did not claim that Mace would undeniably be unfamiliar with anything at Kas'im's disposal.

Fantastic.

2. What I will say now, and what I have said on other threads, is that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with everything at Kas'im's disposal. Given the nature of these versus threads, where we use all available evidence to form the most logical conclusion, that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, or even logically suggested to be, it's more likely than not that he would be largely unfamiliar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and it's more likely than not that Kas'im would be fully capable of surprising him with a lot of what he can bring to the table.

Except that we know for certain that Kas'im is not familiar with Vaapad. There's something he can surprise Kas'im with.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I hate to do it, but I'm going to use the source you gave me against you:

It was prepared. You can't argue that he was unfocused.

I'm not sure that it is. Kas'im is confirmed, by the omniscient narrator to have withstood Bane's attack. He was not harmed by the force that had the potential to 'shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.' The blast was also enough to destroy the temple. That is how strong Kas'im's defenses are. We have a baseline against which to compare him: if Mace is capable of exerting more force (or Force) than that he can win by Force strength alone. But Mace can't do it. Thus, the contest will be determined by the characters' physical powers rather than their external application of the Force.

Next, the lifespan of the accolade. 'He had become the Greatest swordsman in the galaxy. [b]Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.' Note the use of definite language for 'best in the galaxy' while the more audacious claim is only a speculation. 'Ever' is an indefinite timeperiod but it does not exclude the future- I wouldn't say "the battle of Helm's Deep was the most bloody battle ever in history" when I knew (as an omniscient narrator) that the Pelennor Fields was yet to occur. I wouldn't say 'I am the (brother of the) best Super Smash Brothers player ever' without meaning future too. 'Ever' carries an vagueness that implies a future duration too.

The issue here is you're assuming this omniscient narrator quote applies anywhere else but the context of the book and its timeframe and I see no reason why this should be. The 'ever' here doesn't seem it should be a single year after this. I'm unsure why this will preclude any other from growing stronger. The 'now he is dead' from Ragnos applies the same: It is meant in that context, but still says what it says and the previous people of the board used to use that just so to preclude anything after.

Originally posted by Balmung
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😐

As I thought was pretty obvious, I was speaking purely from a technical perspective when I said that. In sheer swordplay, has Vaapad ever been documented to even be different than Juyo?

2. What I will say now, and what I have said on other threads, is that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with everything at Kas'im's disposal. Given the nature of these versus threads, where we use all available evidence to form the most logical conclusion, that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, or even logically suggested to be, it's more likely than not that he would be largely unfamiliar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and it's more likely than not that Kas'im would be fully capable of surprising him with a lot of what he can bring to the table.

Being a master of every form will not give you a definite advantage when a man is facing you with familiarity with all seven classic forms. Kas'im has not mastered Form VII to a greater degree than Mace, it should go without saying, and Mace's style is unfamiliar to him.

Feel free to go on with the same antics we expect from you.

Good lord. What does Mace have on Kas'im? Vaapad and Shatterpoint which would arguably give him a victory, if at the very best, they were equals. Kas'im is undoubtedly more technically skilled than Mace and I don't see how that can be disputed.

Well, DS, if you went and read a little of the thread, maybe you'd see.
What does he have on Kas'im? Strength. Speed. Power. Experience. Unfamiliar form. Shatterpoint. Familiarity with all the forms Kas'im uses...

Better question is what does Kas'im have on Mace? Mastery of forms is great and all, but overall skill with what you have is what matters or else Dooku would be just stomped by Cin Drallig and Anoon Bondara should've walked over Maul.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, DS, if you went and read a little of the thread, maybe you'd see.
What does he have on Kas'im? Strength. Speed. Power. Experience. Unfamiliar form. Shatterpoint. Familiarity with all the forms Kas'im uses...

Better question is what does Kas'im have on Mace? Mastery of forms is great and all, but overall skill with what you have is what matters or else Dooku would be just stomped by Cin Drallig and Anoon Bondara should've walked over Maul.

Overall technical skill is what he has on Mace. Mastery of all the forms, and familiarity with Juyo.