Mace Windu vs Kas'im · Star Wars Versus Forum

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Familiarity with all of Kas'im's forms=/= mastery of them, which Kas'im has. Speed? Maybe. Experience? VERY unlikely. Like I said, he has shatterpoint and Vaapad which could be enough to win for him. However, they seem to work when he is only on par with his combatant. What happens when they are superior to him?

Yeah, guess what? Bane didn't have mastery of any form by Djem So when they thought. Familiarity with the forms is familiarity how to fight them. You know the movies, the styles, the techniques, the angles....if this was the case, Mace would be easily dispatched by Dooku.
Given he's faster, stronger, more powerful and on part with Kas'im with saber skills? Is there anything anyone can bring to the table on Kas'im minus how he's a master of all seven classical saber forms plus Jar'Kai? By this logic, the magna guards and General Grievous should be unstoppable. Why, exactly, does this guarantee him a win over someone who's incredible skill with his own chosen form has easily been shown to be amongst the best in the saga? Kas'im can clearly use what he has. But so can Mace and from the feats of power and skill Mace has displayed, with sabers, he can more than hold his own with Kas'im. He can very well kill him. Especially considering how he was able to match Darth "Turned three of the greatest Jedi duelists ever into corpses in moments" Sidious in saber combat. Kas'im being built from one of the best duelists in the saga to a peerless one is just getting remarkably sad. In Star Wars, one's skills are not defined by the amount of forms they've mastered, but the actually skill they can fight with. Dooku never bothers with anything but Makashi...he is, however, very good with Makashi, more than good enough to take any other swordsman no matter how many forms they know
Mace is a master of multiple high end forms, he has to be to even use Juyo as it is. He was older than Kas'im, he'd been in numerous conflicts, he trained just very hard and had more time to do so. As an all around combatant? Mace is superior.

Overall technical skill is what he has on Mace. Mastery of all the forms, and familiarity with Juyo.

Whereas Mace has mastery of enough to render that moot, enough experience with all of them to make it moot and a style that is different from Juyo.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, guess what? Bane didn't have mastery of any form by Djem So when they thought. Familiarity with the forms is familiarity how to fight them. You know the movies, the styles, the techniques, the angles....if this was the case, Mace would be easily dispatched by Dooku.

Bane didn't have mastery of any form but had mastery over the force and was a lot more powerful than Kas'im in that regard. And remember how in the book it said someone with more force abilities could defeat someone with better saber abilities.
Given he's faster, stronger, more powerful and on part with Kas'im with saber skills? Is there anything anyone can bring to the table on Kas'im minus how he's a master of all seven classical saber forms plus Jar'Kai? By this logic, the magna guards and General Grievous should be unstoppable. Why, exactly, does this guarantee him a win over someone who's incredible skill with his own chosen form has easily been shown to be amongst the best in the saga? Kas'im can clearly use what he has. But so can Mace and from the feats of power and skill Mace has displayed, with sabers, he can more than hold his own with Kas'im. He can very well kill him. Especially considering how he was able to match Darth "Turned three of the greatest Jedi duelists ever into corpses in moments" Sidious in saber combat. Kas'im being built from one of the best duelists in the saga to a peerless one is just getting remarkably sad. In Star Wars, one's skills are not defined by the amount of forms they've mastered, but the actually skill they can fight with. Dooku never bothers with anything but Makashi...he is, however, very good with Makashi, more than good enough to take any other swordsman no matter how many forms they know
Mace is a master of multiple high end forms, he has to be to even use Juyo as it is. He was older than Kas'im, he'd been in numerous conflicts, he trained just very hard and had more time to do so. As an all around combatant? Mace is superior.

Prove that he's faster, stronger, and more powerful than Kas'im. Just saying it doesn't make it true. And the magna guards didn't master any of the forms. You could say that the closet to mastering all the forms was Yoda and look how good he was. See? Logic follows my points too. Nobody claimed Kas'im's mastery would guarantee him a victory. Nor would shatterpoint and Vaapad guarantee Mace a victory. Again, your animosity towards anything other than the PT is obvious. Kas'im's abilities are expressed by the omniscient character. Here's where you start using double standards. Mace is superior? Prove it.

Whereas Mace has mastery of enough to render that moot, enough experience with all of them to make it moot and a style that is different from Juyo.

Prove Mace has mastery over any form other than Vaapad? His mastery of that form is moot as well when you consider Kas'im's overall mastery.

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Bane didn't have mastery of any form but had mastery over the force and was a lot more powerful than Kas'im in that regard. And remember how in the book it said someone with more force abilities could defeat someone with better saber abilities.

Given Mace's force abilities eclipse Kas'im's, that's not a plus for the blademaster

Prove that he's faster, stronger, and more powerful than Kas'im. Just saying it doesn't make it true. And the magna guards didn't master any of the forms. You could say that the closet to mastering all the forms was Yoda and look how good he was. See? Logic follows my points too. Nobody claimed Kas'im's mastery would guarantee him a victory. Nor would shatterpoint and Vaapad guarantee Mace a victory. Again, your animosity towards anything other than the PT is obvious. Kas'im's abilities are expressed by the omniscient character. Here's where you start using double standards. Mace is superior? Prove it.

The Magnaguards were programmed with mastery of all seven saber forms according to Labyrinth of Evil.
Mace is superior, and guess what? I've given my case for it. You've yet to refute it except a thing save for your shrill squeals.
Faster? Mace who looked like he was wielding dozens of sabers at once? Mace who punched someone six times before he could even complete a blink? Stronger? Mace punches through solid durasteel. Your turn.
More powerful in the force...does this need elaboration?
Oh, and when did it say Yoda mastered all the forms? The only one he used in battle was Ataru. Like Mace, he had knowledge and experience with them. How does mastery really help when your opponent is well aware of how to fight each form?

Prove Mace has mastery over any form other than Vaapad? His mastery of that form is moot as well when you consider Kas'im's overall mastery.

Yeah, having mastery of a form that Kas'im has no knowledge of and will be utterly surprising is moot because DS says so...and Juyo requires high end mastery of multiple forms, or are we just not thinking much today?
Pardon, I forgot you just don't think much any day.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Given Mace's force abilities eclipse Kas'im's, that's not a plus for the blademaster

based on?
The Magnaguards were programmed with mastery of all seven saber forms according to Labyrinth of Evil.
Mace is superior, and guess what? I've given my case for it. You've yet to refute it except a thing save for your shrill squeals.
Faster? Mace who looked like he was wielding dozens of sabers at once? Mace who punched someone six times before he could even complete a blink? Stronger? Mace punches through solid durasteel. [/quote]
Show me the quote where the magnaguards were programmed with "mastery" of all 7 forms. Please. You haven't given any argument for Mace except "Mace is superior, prove otherwise", as well as your consistent bitching that you're very well known for. Mace punches through dursteel?! OH MY! Kas'im has force shields against ridiculous force waves. Looks like I win.
More powerful in the force...does this need elaboration?

Again, your argument rests on you claiming he's more powerful, not proving anything.
Oh, and when did it say Yoda mastered all the forms? The only one he used in battle was Ataru. Like Mace, he had knowledge and experience with them. How does mastery really help when your opponent is well aware of how to fight each form?

Well aware? Being aware of all 7 forms doesn't in any way imply that you can fight a master of all 7 forms. This is typical LS PT bias.

Yeah, having mastery of a form that Kas'im has no knowledge of and will be utterly surprising is moot because DS says so...and Juyo requires high end mastery of multiple forms, or are we just not thinking much today?
Pardon, I forgot you just don't think much any day.

Translation: I have no argument except that PT is better than all other forms, but I'll continue my usual bitching until DS stops. I like to use double standards because it helps my argument and helps me sleep at night.

So mastery over Vaapad isn't a moot point but mastery over 7 forms including Jar'kai versus someone who is just "familiar" with them IS a moot point? Double standards for dummies. You're a hilarious kid.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

DS:
Bane didn't have mastery of any form but had mastery over the force and was a lot more powerful than Kas'im in that regard. And remember how in the book it said someone with more force abilities could defeat someone with better saber abilities.

False:

Me:
[quote]Kas'im himself states '"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force.'

[/quote]

You got it backwards. That quote helps Kas'im.

Gideon Restricted

"Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling -- in the Jedi arts -- made them lethal opponents."
-- Labyrinth of Evil, page 210.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon

Thanks escape, I have the book and the quote as well. LS claimed that the robots had mastery of all 7 forms, which is clearly untrue.

@Red Nemesis

My mistake, I had it backwards, confirmed with the book now, thanks.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks escape, I have the book and the quote as well. LS claimed that the robots had mastery of all 7 forms, which is clearly untrue.

How is it untrue?

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
How is it untrue?

Show me where in that statement there is ANY indication that they were programmed with MASTERY of all 7 forms, rather than learning them? You must seriously have logical deduction skills that are beyond mine if that is what you got out of that statement.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Show me where in that statement there is ANY indication that they were programmed with MASTERY of all 7 forms, rather than learning them? You must seriously have logical deduction skills that are beyond mine if that is what you got out of that statement.

And what exactly do you believe their level of proficiency is?

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
And what exactly do you believe their level of proficiency is?

My belief is completely irrelevant to this debate. However, there is absolutely NO evidence of any kind suggesting that they mastered the 7 forms of combat. At least not from that quote alone. You'll have to do better than that Escape.

Gideon Restricted

"Each of the Magnaguards assigned to Grievous was personally trained by the cyborg general. The Magnaguards were given portions of Grievous's own combat programming, making them more than a match for most Jedi Knights."
-- the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, H-O, page 79.

One may wonder how a manufactured droid (lacking the advantages afforded by the Force) would be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights" during a time when the Order was at its prime unless they were extremely proficient with lightsaber combat. Masters? Perhaps not. Novices? Hardly.

Edit: By the way, Vaapad does require its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms." LS has you there.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
One may wonder how a manufactured droid (lacking the advantages afforded by the Force) would be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights" during a time when the Order was at its prime unless they were extremely proficient with lightsaber combat. Masters? Perhaps not. Novices? Hardly.

Why must you go to the other end of the spectrum because I mentioned no such thing? I simply stated that there is NO evidence they mastered all 7 forms, and I stand by that. We can debate their alleged level of proficiency all day long but my point stands.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why must you go to the other end of the spectrum because I mentioned no such thing? I simply stated that there is NO evidence they mastered all 7 forms, and I stand by that. We can debate their alleged level of proficiency all day long but my point stands.

No, it doesn't.

Lightsnake's point was that impressive technical mastery doesn't make someone a truly phenomenal opponent in the grand scheme of things, and he's correct. Magnaguards wage war against the Jedi with a colossal disadvantage: they lack attunement to the Force. So, unlike the Jedi, they cannot draw upon the limitless energy used to augment their own skill, strength, and offensive power. They cannot use the Force to crush their adversaries' chests or hurl them across battlefields. They cannot indulge in precognition in order to ascertain a solution or an outcome to a complication during a fight. They rely on sheer skill alone. Despite that, their "programming" in the Jedi arts allowed them to be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights."

That suggests an unbelievable proficiency in lightsaber combat that may or may not verge on mastery. Despite this, we have a handful of Force users who have made short work of them.

Anoon Bondara has accolades from here to high heaven, regarded as the foremost battlemaster and the most skilled swordsmen alive (moreso than Yoda, Windu, Dooku, et al). And yet he was outclassed and butchered by Darth Maul. Cin Drallig was also an extremely accomplished duelist and was lazily defeated by Vader, who was dividing his attention between Drallig and another student.

The bottom line is that Kas'im's "technical mastery" is all well and good but does not grant him superiority as a combatant.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Gideon
No, it doesn't.

Yes, it really does. We're not arguing the overall scope of the argument, but rather that one passage. I'll address your other points out of respect but this isn't what I'm arguing with you. I'm arguing just the quote and to interpret it the way you have, is a stretch.
Lightsnake's point was that impressive technical mastery doesn't make someone a truly phenomenal opponent in the grand scheme of things, and he's correct. Magnaguards wage war against the Jedi with a colossal disadvantage: they lack attunement to the Force. So, unlike the Jedi, they cannot draw upon the limitless energy used to augment their own skill, strength, and offensive power. They cannot use the Force to crush their adversaries' chests or hurl them across battlefields. They cannot indulge in precognition in order to ascertain a solution or an outcome to a complication during a fight. They rely on sheer skill alone. Despite that, their "programming" in the Jedi arts allowed them to be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights."

Impressive technical mastery is no guarantee, you're right. When did I debate this? However Kas'im had the advantage of being a phenomenal opponent, if we are to go with the omniscient character's choice of words.

Anoon Bondara has accolades from here to high heaven, regarded as the foremost battlemaster and the most skilled swordsmen alive (moreso than Yoda, Windu, Dooku, et al). And yet he was outclassed and butchered by Darth Maul. Cin Drallig was also an extremely accomplished duelist and was lazily defeated by Vader, who was dividing his attention between Drallig and another student.
The bottom line is that Kas'im's "technical mastery" is all well and good but does not grant him superiority as a combatant.

Absolutely, I agree. Nor did I argue against this. But at the same time, Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint do NOT guarantee superiority over Kas'im, as well.

Final Blaxican Restricted

Does the quote about the magnaguaurds being "more than match for most Jedi knights" only apply to Greivous' MG's?

Because, Ashouka wrecked three at once by herself... which means she's either extremely skilled and capable at dueling, perhaps a prodigy... or MG's are just overrated.

At the time that Ashouka fought them, she had just been promoted to padawan level a few days before hand. That means she basically had only youngling level experience in fighting.

Gideon Restricted

Lightsnake's argument is that Mace Windu has demonstrated a greater command and strength in the Force than Kas'im, is much more powerful physically, and possesses enough familiarity and a high end mastery of multiple forms that will enable him to not get steamrolled by his opponent. It's a valid point. Bane didn't master a single form at this point according to you all and was familiar enough with Kas'im's work and technique that he was winning the fight. How the hell is it going to be any different for Windu?

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Does the quote about the magnaguaurds being "more than match for most Jedi knights" only apply to Greivous' MG's?

No idea.

Because, Ashouka wrecked three at once by herself... which means she's either extremely skilled and capable at dueling, perhaps a prodigy... or MG's are just overrated.

Suspension of disbelief. We can't ignore valid canon statements simply because we don't like them; stormtroopers are regarded as ridiculously trained, fearless, and loyal to the point of brainwashed, yet we see them defeated with laughable ease, run away, and betray the Empire more than once. Does it disregard the blanket statement entirely? No.

But the Encyclopedia does say this about Ahsoka:

"A devoted student of the Jedi ways, Ahsoka was a talented swordswoman, a budding tactition, and a critical thinker." It suggests she is an enormously gifted combatant despite her rank.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.

Gideon Restricted

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.

Perhaps.

But that wasn't all that was attributed for Bane's success, was it? His familiarity with Kas'im's technique helped considerably. If it were just sheer strength in the Force, Kas'im busting out the Jar'kai wouldn't have made a difference.