Originally posted by Gideon
Lightsnake's argument is that Mace Windu has demonstrated a greater command and strength in the Force than Kas'im, is much more powerful physically, and possesses enough familiarity and a high end mastery of multiple forms that will enable him to not get steamrolled by his opponent. It's a valid point. Bane didn't master a single form at this point according to you all and was familiar enough with Kas'im's work and technique that he was winning the fight. How the hell is it going to be any different for Windu?
Who claimed Mace was going to get steamrolled? Seriously.
Bane might not have mastered any form but he knew Kas'im's forms and attacks inside and out, like Anakin and Obiwan. When he saw a form he wasn't familiar with, he got curbstomped. Mace might be familiar with the 7 forms but there's no indication that he had mastery of any of them other than Vaapad.
Kas'im mastered them all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Vaapad a variation of Juyo?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.
How? He used one desperate attack at the very end to win. And that one attack is not even comparable to Mace's top stuff.
Caving in a hallway of a temple that is over hundreds of years old is |=| literally stopping an avalanche of boulders from crushing you, WHILE keeping a giant tractor filled with people from tumbling over a cliff.
Suspension of disbelief. We can't ignore valid canon statements simply because we don't like them; stormtroopers are regarded as ridiculously trained, fearless, and loyal to the point of brainwashed, yet we see them defeated with laughable ease, run away, and betray the Empire more than once. Does it disregard the blanket statement entirely? No.
I suppose.
But, as you know about me by now, I personally take what's done in the series as superior canon to the quotes.
Originally posted by Nephthys
mmm Point.
Young fool. Only the now, at the end, do you understand...
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Who claimed Mace was going to get steamrolled? Seriously.
Nebaris.
Bane might not have mastered any form but he knew Kas'im's forms and attacks inside and out, like Anakin and Obiwan.
...And could respond in kind despite not being a master of any form. The bond and familiarity between Skywalker and Kenobi is a completely separate entity. And both were masters of lightsaber forms. Somehow, I don't think it was Bane's intimate knowledge of Kas'im that saved his ass, especially if he didn't master a lightsaber form at that point.
When he saw a form he wasn't familiar with, he got curbstomped.
Bingo. Bane, who didn't master a form, was curbstomped only when confronted with something he wasn't familiar with. Meaning, up until that point, he was acquitting himself quite well. Mace is a master of multiple forms. Do the math here, DS.
Mace might be familiar with the 7 forms but there's no indication that he had mastery of any of them other than Vaapad.
Except that Vaapad requires its users to be high end masters of multiple forms, as you have been told for the millionth time.
Kas'im mastered them all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Vaapad a variation of Juyo?
It is an improvement.
Originally posted by Gideon...And could respond in kind despite not being a master of any form. The bond and familiarity between Skywalker and Kenobi is a completely separate entity. And both were masters of lightsaber forms. Somehow, I don't think it was Bane's intimate knowledge of Kas'im that saved his ass, especially if he didn't master a lightsaber form at that point.
Bingo. Bane, who didn't master a form, was curbstomped only when confronted with something he wasn't familiar with. Meaning, up until that point, he was acquitting himself quite well. Mace is a master of multiple forms. Do the math here, DS.
Except that Vaapad requires its users to be high end masters of multiple forms, as you have been told for the millionth time.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His connection to the force.
That was a factor. But unless you're telling me that that using two lightsabers somehow drains the Force from your opponent, it's not the only reason. The bottom line is that Darth Bane, master of no form, was familiar enough with the various lightsaber forms to dominate Kas'im on even ground.
Meanwhile, Mace Windu also possesses a stronger connection to the Force than Kas'im and is a "high end master of multiple forms" and the absolute master of the deadliest one of all. On paper, Mace would do much better against Kas'im than Bane.
So you're claiming Mace has mastered all 7 forms, including Jar'Kai?
Don't be dense. I said that logically, Mace possesses more advantages against Kas'im than Bane did.
Show me proof escape. And according to the book, "Bane gave himself completely to the darkside", in order to be faster than Kas'im.
Yes, and Windu opened himself up to the Force enough to match the great Darth Sidious in speed. Am I supposed to be impressed?
Ok, which forms? All 7? So if Mace is a master of 2 forms, Kas'im has the other 5. 3 or 4, 4 or 3, etc. This is no guarantee to anything.
I'll provide you the three entries to Juyo, Vaapad, and Form VII.
Originally posted by Gideon
That was a factor. But unless you're telling me that that using two lightsabers somehow drains the Force from your opponent, it's not the only reason. The bottom line is that Darth Bane, master of no form, was familiar enough with the various lightsaber forms to dominate Kas'im on even ground.Meanwhile, Mace Windu also possesses a stronger connection to the Force than Kas'im and is a "high end master of multiple forms" and the absolute master of the deadliest one of all. On paper, Mace would do much better against Kas'im than Bane.
Don't be dense. I said that logically, Mace possesses more advantages against Kas'im than Bane did.
Yes, and Windu opened himself up to the Force enough to match the great Darth Sidious in speed. Am I supposed to be impressed?
I'll provide you the three entries to Juyo, Vaapad, and Form VII.
What is your overall point? We agree that Mace wouldn't get curbstomped. I'm sure we also agree that neither will Kas'im. I agree that Mace would logically fair better against Kas'im, but his knowledge of multiple forms don't guarantee him a victory. Neither does Vaapad or Shatterpoint. His shot is considerably better than Bane's.
Vaapad:
"A style of lightsaber combat developed by Mace Windu, with the assistance of Sora Bulq, prior to the Clone Wars. Derived from the Juyo discipline, Vaapad was an aggressive collection of maneuvers considered to be part of Form VII. As such, Vaapad was considered extremely close to the dark side of the Force and was forbidden to all but the most skilled Jedi Masters. To Master Windu and his apprentice, Depa Billaba, Vaapad was more than a combat style; it was a state of mind in which fighters opened themselves so fully to the Force that they drew power from both the light and dark sides. The style was named for the multi-tentacled vaapad creature found on Sarapin."
-- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, P-Z, page 288.
Form VII:
"Known as Juyo or Vaapad, this lightsaber combat was one of the most demanding of all the forms developed by the Jedi Knights. Only through the learning of several other forms could a Jedi begin to understand Form VII, which involved so much physical combat ability that its training brought a Jedi very close to the dark side of the Force. Jedi Master Mace Windu studied the Form VII technique. To master it, a Jedi had to employ bold movements and be more kinetic than any other form. Form VII employed the use of overwhelming power directed through unconnected, staccato movements that kept an opponent continually off guard."
-- the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, A-G, page 290.
Juyo:
"The ancient term -- taken from the High Galactic -- for the primary variation on the Form VII lightsaber fighting style. This form of combat was believed to have been first developed on Sarapin by a nonsentient predator, and later adapted to lightsaber combat. It involved the use of streamlined attacks, coupled with physical strenght, to defeat an opponent. Juyo and its other variation, Vaapad, were considered the most difficult combat forms to learn and master because they required incredible discipline and control."
-- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, H-O, page 184.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What is your overall point? We agree that Mace wouldn't get curbstomped. I'm sure we also agree that neither will Kas'im. I agree that Mace would logically fair better against Kas'im, but his knowledge of multiple forms don't guarantee him a victory. Neither does Vaapad or Shatterpoint. His shot is considerably better than Bane's.
That depends. I haven't had my copy of PoD in years, but it depends largely on how decisive Bane was defeating Kas'im. If he was doing so rather easily, then yes, I would say Windu would only have moderate difficulty with him.
Originally posted by Gideon
That depends. I haven't had my copy of PoD in years, but it depends largely on how decisive Bane was defeating Kas'im. If he was doing so rather easily, then yes, I would say Windu would only have moderate difficulty with him.
He was forcing him back but couldn't break through his defenses. I wouldn't call it a victory but close to one. He was screwed when Kas'im used the double blades.