What if the Empire invaded modern day earth?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Irrelevant.

As they conquer whatever continent they are on they will produce transports.

Fuel is irrelevant (cold fusion FTW) and ammo (since you are using only movie material) is also irrelevant: ammo is never changed or depleted in the movies (That I can remember) so it isn't a problem here.

The tanks can shoot upwards and Vader's Force strength is enormous. I wouldn't bet against him. Anyway, do you have proof or math(s) that suggest a nuke could take out a Walker?

Or they just kill everyone. Base Delta Zero shows that they wouldn't have a moral qualm and they could take out a city pretty easily.

What? This is just silly...

You're silly. The Empire has the technological advantage as well as the disciplinary one. They have no civilians to protect and no long-term consequences for their actions. As such, they are free to commit atrocities as needed while the rest of the world must be careful not to step on each others' toes. Empire takes this. [/B]

It's not irrelevant. Let's say they start off in South America. How will they know which way to go? Where civilization is? Etc.

OK then. Think about it. 500,000 vs SEVERAL MILLION! They'd get worn down by attrition.

I never said that we're only using movie material, but OK then.

The tanks in the movies have a pathetic range, and if vader can force push an entire group of missiles, then when Luke was in his X wing about to destroy the death star, why didn't he just use the force to smash the X wing?

If they kill everyone, then what's the point of invading? They'll just have a lifeless world...

How is it silly? You can't deny that a catapult made an AT ST stumble. A CATAPULT.

Well, since we're using the movies, stormtroopers have an EXTREMELY hard time hitting a guy at close range, and can't beat a farmboy, a smuggler and a princess even when they outnumber the trio. The stormtroopers also get knocked out by rocks, so a bullet would obviously take them down. And can you please say HOW my argument is silly instead of just saying that I am? One stormtrooper < one earth soldier because the stormtroopers can't hit a guy right next to them. They also have no concept of cover; do you ever see them using cover in the movies?

You never specified exactly when they invaded in relative SW terms. Therefore we can only assume it's done just After ROTS leading to most of the troopers being the elité rather than the ones you mention, bear in mind they're accellerated clones most of the original Jango Fett templates died by ANH therefore meaning the ones which were present in ANH were just normal people like me and Nemesis still not convinced if your normal or not.

So this is how it goes:

In every encounter, the stormtroopers would find themselves outnumbered 3:1 or more. Each stormtrooper would have to handle 3 soldiers. And how can they do that if 20 stormtroopers can't beat 3 untrained men w/pistols?

They'd also constantly get bombarded by missiles and artillery, OVER AND OVER. They'd also have to move slowly so that their AT ATs can catch up (and, in the movies, they're VERY slow), so that means more time to comsume food (no "cold fusion" in movies) and for Vader to get tired from constantly having to deflect loads of missiles!

Then, once they actually engage an enemy army, they'd be outnumbered by troops who (by movie stormtrooper standards) are far superior. Their only saving grace would be the AT ATs, so they'd win, but not after suffering tons of casualties.

So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"😉 and a good deal of their AA guns.

And they have to repeat this multiple times, over and over, with their numbers getting smaller and smaller.

And for those saying that "oh the empire wins cause they got lasers and all that" think about it for a sec. In the moives, are their blasters really superior to our guns? There's no evidence suggesting that they have greater firepower, they have about the same range and don't fire that fast given that it's a laser gun.

Originally posted by mattatom
You never specified exactly when they invaded in relative SW terms. Therefore we can only assume it's done just After ROTS leading to most of the troopers being the elité rather than the ones you mention, bear in mind they're accellerated clones most of the original Jango Fett templates died by ANH.

No, this is ANH.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No space/air support, just ground troops (for the empire)

The empire sends an invasion force w/:

500,000 stormtroopers
1000 AT STs and tanks
100 AT ATs
Darth Vader is commander

Would they succeed?

This might seem like an easy win for the empire, but let's look at it.

Our toops would FAR outnumber them.

Our toops seem to be more accurate (stormtroopers couldn't hit Han Solo at close range), our guns have a faster rate of fire (blasters don't seem to fire at that fast of a rate), our armor actually does something (although it wouldn't really help vs. the blasters since they're heat), and our soldiers are overall better trained (a squad of stormtoopers w/rifles and armorcan't beat a smuggler, a princess and a farmboy w/ pistols)

Their AT STs actually got knocked back by a catapult 😆 and got tripped by a stone age trap.

We could just use the same tactic as the snowspeeders. Or...

NUKES

Vader is powerful, and would certainly help in a small skirmish, but come on. In a huge war, one man that's powerful doesn't really help that much unless if he's superman or something; the jedi aren't really all that helpful (in the clone wars) IN TERMS of just head on fighting because there's only 10,000 of them.

So wheres this bit saying it's ANH then?

Originally posted by mattatom
So wheres this bit saying it's ANH then?

Sorry, I didn't specify. It's ANH.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So this is how it goes:

In every encounter, the stormtroopers would find themselves outnumbered 3:1 or more. Each stormtrooper would have to handle 3 soldiers. And how can they do that if 20 stormtroopers can't beat 3 untrained men w/pistols?

They'd also constantly get bombarded by missiles and artillery, OVER AND OVER. They'd also have to move slowly so that their AT ATs can catch up (and, in the movies, they're VERY slow), so that means more time to comsume food (no "cold fusion" in movies) and for Vader to get tired from constantly having to deflect loads of missiles!

Then, once they actually engage an enemy army, they'd be outnumbered by troops who (by movie stormtrooper standards) are far superior. Their only saving grace would be the AT ATs, so they'd win, but not after suffering tons of casualties.

So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"😉 and a good deal of their AA guns.

And they have to repeat this multiple times, over and over, with their numbers getting smaller and smaller.

And for those saying that "oh the empire wins cause they got lasers and all that" think about it for a sec. In the moives, are their blasters really superior to our guns? There's no evidence suggesting that they have greater firepower, they have about the same range and don't fire that fast given that it's a laser gun.

(updated)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry, I didn't specify. It's ANH.

Too late to specify now.

Originally posted by mattatom
Too late to specify now.

What are you saying? I'm sorry but I forgot to specify. But it's not "too late" too specify.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What are you saying? I'm sorry but I forgot to specify. But it's not "too late" too specify.

Thats like in a DE sidious vs Yoda fight.

*people are arguing about who'll win*

Oh btw a little edit i meant Yoda on his death bed.

Sorta ruins the whole vs. experience.

For a while.

Originally posted by mattatom
Too late to specify now.

Don't be a jerk. He knows who wins and no amount of argument will change his mind. It isn't too late: he can still manipulate the environment as he sees fit (he is the OP). Next Earth will discover Cold Fusion (and temporal weapons) while the Empire regresses to pre-hyperspace tech levels.

On a completely unrelated note, Jar Jar Binks is more powerful than Darth Vader because he could have killed lil' Annie in TPM. Also, Darth Sidious would lose to Yoda because Sidious was terrible during TPM. Hell, he didn't even use the Force!

Originally posted by mattatom
Thats like in a DE sidious vs Yoda fight.

*people are arguing about who'll win*

Oh btw a little edit i meant Yoda on his death bed.

Sorta ruins the whole vs. experience.

For a while.

That is a WAY exaggerated analogy...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Don't be a jerk. He knows who wins and no amount of argument will change his mind. It isn't too late: he can still manipulate the environment as he sees fit (he is the OP). Next Earth will discover Cold Fusion (and temporal weapons) while the Empire regresses to pre-hyperspace tech levels.

On a completely unrelated note, Jar Jar Binks is more powerful than Darth Vader because he could have killed lil' Annie in TPM. Also, Darth Sidious would lose to Yoda because Sidious was terrible during TPM. Hell, he didn't even use the Force!

All I said is that Vader is from ANH. That's it. I never manipulated the environment any more. In fact, you guys sorta did by giving the Empire AA guns when I never gave them it, and I AGREED.

In any case, the situation is so totally unrealistic. Why the hell would the Imperials not have their ships to transport them across the world? The only reason they would all land in one spot would be because they were forced to, and we haven't anything to force them with.

So this is how it goes:

In every encounter, the stormtroopers would find themselves outnumbered 3:1 or more. Each stormtrooper would have to handle 3 soldiers. And how can they do that if 20 stormtroopers can't beat 3 untrained men w/pistols?

Not to burst your bubble, but our heroes from ANH are not without experience. Han Solo trained in the Imperial academies and is an avid gunslinger. Leia also has combat training for self-protection and fighting the war against the Empire. Luke at least has some knowledge of blasters as he has a rifle on Tatooine that he intends to use against the Tuskens if they attack him.

They'd also constantly get bombarded by missiles and artillery, OVER AND OVER. They'd also have to move slowly so that their AT ATs can catch up (and, in the movies, they're VERY slow), so that means more time to comsume food (no "cold fusion" in movies) and for Vader to get tired from constantly having to deflect loads of missiles!

The AT-ATs are shown to have great range as it is, and being huge they move ponderously but cover distances about as fast as footsoldiers would, I should think. I could see artillery being a problem, but not for the AT-ATs...

Then, once they actually engage an enemy army, they'd be outnumbered by troops who (by movie stormtrooper standards) are far superior. Their only saving grace would be the AT ATs, so they'd win, but not after suffering tons of casualties.

Have we seen bullets used against stormtrooper armor? Ever? Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents. Especially witht he support from Vader and the walkers.

[/quote]So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"😉 and a good deal of their AA guns.[/quote]

You're really banking on that catapult thing. It's annoying. Catapults launch incredibly heavy projectiles that would be able to knock the thing over, yes, but we don't use heavy projectiles, we use explosives. There is not even a guarantee that our weapons do much to them.

Also, why discrediting the stormtroopers as dying fast? How many people died in World War II? In Vietnam? In modern wars? America has lost over 3000 troops to the war in Iraq, but the Iraqis have lost 35,000. I don't think the stormtroopers would die as quickly as you think they would.

You're also using the logic that Earth would throw everything they've got immediately. I don't think that'd happen. If the Empire is moving from country to country, they would knock them down one by one, like pins. The idea that they don't have any transports to get across the waters to other nations is just ridiculous and intentionally inflicted upon them by you so that they can't even fight the war they're being put into. They will figure it out; there are variants of AT-ATs that are aquatic, I'm sure they could modify their walkers.

And they have to repeat this multiple times, over and over, with their numbers getting smaller and smaller.

And for those saying that "oh the empire wins cause they got lasers and all that" think about it for a sec. In the moives, are their blasters really superior to our guns? There's no evidence suggesting that they have greater firepower, they have about the same range and don't fire that fast given that it's a laser gun.

Have you ever blown open a solid metal door with a pistol? Has anyone? Lasers punch holes in stormtrooper armor. You don't need to spray-and-pray as we do with burstfire weapons here on Earth. One hit will do if it is not a glancing shot.

Also, I'm going to say that the firepower of lasers coming from AT-ATs will dominate whatever we throw at them, unless we decide to just destroy the Earth with nukes.

So Luke has "some" experience w/the blaster, Han trained in imperial academies and Leia took self defense lessons - so does that mean that Leia's self defense lessons and Lukes "some" experience are greater than the stormtroopers' training enough so that they can take out a huge group of them? Han is the only one that actually got formal training, and if Leia's self defense lessons are that much better than the Stormtroopers', then...

And we can very much make modernized catapults/trebucheut that are even better than the ewoks'. And, if a rock could knock out a stormtrooper, than A BULLET CERTAINLY CAN!!!

"Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents."

You can't make quick work of an opponent if you can't hit them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So Luke has "some" experience w/the blaster, Han trained in imperial academies and Leia took self defense lessons - so does that mean that Leia's self defense lessons and Lukes "some" experience are greater than the stormtroopers' training enough so that they can take out a huge group of them? Han is the only one that actually got formal training, and if Leia's self defense lessons are that much better than the Stormtroopers', then...

And we can very much make modernized catapults/trebucheut that are even better than the ewoks'. And, if a rock could knock out a stormtrooper, than A BULLET CERTAINLY CAN!!!

"Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents."

You can't make quick work of an opponent if you can't hit them.

Your entire argument rests on the belief that every soldier who faces a barrage of laser fire and having NO protection against it, will stand their ground and fight. They won't. They'll be vaporized. This isn't Battlefront or some RTS game, people faced with insurmountable odds will high-tail it out of there.

To re-quote the passage Avis provided:

"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

A "wicked-looking" spear (not Native-American, not Macedonian---wicked-looking in Star Wars terms) hurled by a mechanical prosthesis NICKED the armor. Stormtrooper can withstand a vacuum and intense temperatures, it'll handle a round from an AK-47 or M16.

In the meantime, AT-ATs are made out of reinforced durasteel known for its, incidentally enough, extreme durability. To borrow from Wookiee's article on it----"Durasteel was an incredibly strong and versatile metal alloy, created from carvanium, lommite, carbon, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium. It was capable of withstanding blistering heat, frigid cold, and monumental physical stress, even when very thin. Because of these properties, durasteel was used for almost everything, from smelting pots for other less hearty metals, to spacecraft hulls." Combine this with their weapon's ability to blow away entire building with one charged shot and a maximum speed of 60 km/h, no tank, soldier or known conventional explosive will be able to withstand/outrun or pierce it.

As for your "how will they attack the nuclear nations?" Counter-question----how did they arrive on the planet in the first place? Use those same transports

Where will they find food? All around. Where will they find ammo and weapons capable of taking on Earth's military? All around. Where will they find additional transport, spare parts and materiel? All around. Where or where will they themselves get their hands on a nuclear warhead? In one of the tens of thousands of silos they're bound to run into. Where will they find willing and terrified accomplices? In cowards and pragmatists. When will they be able to convince Earth's nations to lay down their arms or risk global annihilation? After the first few cities are obliterated and the first several million soldiers are killed.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Where will they find willing and terrified accomplices? In cowards and pragmatists.

Also the smart people who know the Empire will win.

Pragmatists see the world in terms of what works best ...

Mhm seeing the world in terms of what works best? Yeh I reckon the Empire would be the side to side with in this battle.

You know what, I give up. I still think that the Empire would lose, but most of you think the opposite. Us arguing won't change either of our minds.

I respect your opinion, and you make quite a few good points, but I don't see 500,000 men taking on the whole world.

We do. So long as those are spacemen with laser guns.

SEMPER FI!!!!!!!!!!

I'd seriously like to see a stormtrooper take an Army Ranger, Green Beret, A Delta Force or a Navy SEAL in hand to hand combat. Come on guys, a stormtrooper is no match for a marine or the special forces. Even with Vader leading there is no way in hell they would be able to defeat the corp.

Everyone is screaming about AT-AT - try a submarine firing a Tomahawk or a Harpoon Missile? Now a Harpoon is anti-ship missile, but re-calibrate that son-of-a-bitich and you've got yourself an AT-AT killer. TOW missile will do the same thing. A Walker would be a bit more difficult, but drop some artillery on that ***** and it's dead. Artillery is a hell of a lot more accurate that a mere laser cannon.

Forgot - an M1A2 Abrams main battle tank will take out an AT-AT or AT-ST easily. The M1A2 can destroy a target over 2 km away while moving at 45 mph due to it's laser sighting and infrared targeting systems.

Almost forgot, try getting a an AT-AT or a Walker across the Sierra Nevada or Rocky Mountains. IMPOSSIBLE!