Originally posted by K1ll3r
Good, we agree that Cloud is faster then Raziel. Yes, he has TK so Cloud loses against Raziel.Yes it is, it isn't as enormous as you make it out to be, a van is a lot bigger then Clouds sword.
Yes he can, especially when he has cells still hanging around.
They are Jenova cells, which have instincts to connect themselves with eachother.
What we do know about HOLY is it has a force, and is not a solid, it seems to be like light in substance that moves with a force, and Sephiroth contained it with his Will (OR TK).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1548279993389993862
3:00.The force of HOLY is crazy big.
He contained it, and it has a force. In this context how is willpower different from TK?
*sigh* I am so annoyed at you using a gameplay style as a crutch against FF
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24698.html
00:03
The name of the spell pops up as he casts it.It isn't as huge as you think it is, and no he doesn't. No, he moves his sword into completely different positions not what you say. That is a terrible analogy, a sword is held entirely different to a shield and Cloud handles his sword different to how you say.
So, when my friend broke his arm from tripping onto reinforced concrete destroyed the entire concrete block broke before his arm broke. Your logic fails. The force required to pick them up was around 1100 lbs. Wt. easily enough to break any bone.
Show me him being more durable, and how he could withstand even 900 lbs. Wt. on his face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4
from 3:00.Kains feat is less then Sephiroths feat. Kain will not be able to do any such thing, as Jenova cells will stay together, they literally move to make sure they are together.
Sephiroth infects both Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus.
@Phanteros Where?
Yes we do, but not as much as you would like to think, hes not blitzing anyone in this match.
Yeh but you see ime making the point out of an exaggeration, fact is Clouds sword is ridiculously large and he has to put less effort into blocking something with it than the typical sword.
And Kain will not let them.....or he could outright destroy them with his many other spells.
TK is not necesserily what Sephiroth uses, still, you cant name it as a TK feat.
What do you mean the force of holy? all it did was burst forth, knocking an airship over, for all we know it only burst forth because it was contained in one space, like if you try and condense a lot of water into a small container and then take the lid off, it will explode.
TK is creating kinetic e.g. physical force with your mind, what willpower is is pretty much unkown, I dont know what the FF creators say it is, its just "willpower", we cant assume he would have to stop the cells of the object even if we do assume its as liquid and unstable as blood.
Ime not talking about gameplay, infact what you just showed is gameplay, ime talking about when the player is not actually playing e.g.
EOrU-vP-UeE&feature=related
At the beginning, it takes him around 3/4+ seconds to summon bahumaht or w/e its name is, and it takes nearly as long in all FF material.
No a normal sword is held diffrently, Cloud almost has his in front of him constantly and its just as big, if not bigger than the typical shield, blocking a bullet with that sword from one or two gunman in the past who are predictable is not much of a feat.
How can you assume that? not to mention the fact its not necesserily real TK and he may not even be able to concentate on smaller forces, just because you can lift a rock with two hands doesnt mean you can put all the strength used into one hand. Infact all I have seen from Sephiroths TK is larger objects, usually human sized, never anything smaller, its likely he cannot even concentrate his will power or TK (if he really has it) on certain areas.
The proof is in my profile, biography section, if Kain can take tonnes of force then Sephiroth could never damage him with his weak TK, fact is Sephiroth has not shown the force to smash bones, certainly not the bones and flesh of a being far stronger and this is a stupid argument anyway because Kain could transform into mist or teleport to escape any TK hold.
The only slightly impressive feat in that video is the very beginning where he slashes the ground up a few times, fact is Kains slash is similiar albiet without flashy effects:
Kain does about 3/4 slashes in less than a second. Similiar in this battle:
At 0:28 and 0:38
Well whats the strength feat of a single jenova cell because the way I see it, its going to be a tiny cells will against Kains Tk......
Originally posted by Gumachi
He can lift with TK(I think)...it upgraded after he defeated Tumah(I think his name is). It atleast changes after you defeat him in gameplay.
Raziel enhances his TK to kains level after defeating Turel.
Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes we do, but not as much as you would like to think, hes not blitzing anyone in this match.
But you already admitted he is faster and...(contd)
Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh but you see ime making the point out of an exaggeration, fact is Clouds sword is ridiculously large and he has to put less effort into blocking something with it than the typical sword.
Yes you were, you were trying to deny that Cloud could react to bullets(Because his sword is so big he doesn't need to), which he clearly can.
(contd)...that he has faster reflexes than Raziel.
Originally posted by Burning thought
And Kain will not let them.....or he could outright destroy them with his many other spells.
A. Show me him Tking cells.
B. Show me him Tking cells that can come back together.
C. Show me him destroying cells.
Originally posted by Burning thought
TK is not necesserily what Sephiroth uses, still, you cant name it as a TK feat.
Yes, he does use TK. Will is sometimes synonymous with TK.
Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you mean the force of holy? all it did was burst forth, knocking an airship over, for all we know it only burst forth because it was contained in one space, like if you try and condense a lot of water into a small container and then take the lid off, it will explode.
It burst forth, sending a 1800 ton airship several thousand miles in the air from deep in the planet within 10 - 15 seconds, that is a lot of force. I don't know why you used this analogy, because Holy can clearly move itself into place, whereas water can't. Try harder to make holy seem like nothing please.
Originally posted by Burning thought
TK is creating kinetic e.g. physical force with your mind, what willpower is is pretty much unkown, I dont know what the FF creators say it is, its just "willpower", we cant assume he would have to stop the cells of the object even if we do assume its as liquid and unstable as blood.
TK is exerting your will over things or a physical manifestation of your minds thoughts. e.g. you exert your will to move an arm to pick up a pen, you exert your will to pick up a pen, you tk the pen. I never assumed that.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Ime not talking about gameplay, infact what you just showed is gameplay, ime talking about when the player is not actually playing e.g.
But you used gameplay before to show how long it took to cast materia? And you use it again later on in this quote.
Originally posted by Burning thought
EOrU-vP-UeE&feature=relatedAt the beginning, it takes him around 3/4+ seconds to summon bahumaht or w/e its name is, and it takes nearly as long in all FF material.
Show me this taking nearly as long in all ff materia'l'.
Show me him using the materia without any showmanship, just casting, no talking about things and no doing it dramatically.
Originally posted by Burning thought
No a normal sword is held diffrently, Cloud almost has his in front of him constantly and its just as big, if not bigger than the typical shield, blocking a bullet with that sword from one or two gunman in the past who are predictable is not much of a feat.
I didn't say he held it like a normal sword. It sure as hell isn't wider than a typical shield. I have no idea what you are rambling on about here, but blocking bullets with a sword is a feat.
Cloud blocking bullets with a fairly thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg
01:50
Zack blocking bullets with a very thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D16uzMf8BOk
02:10
Originally posted by Burning thought
How can you assume that? not to mention the fact its not necesserily real TK and he may not even be able to concentate on smaller forces, just because you can lift a rock with two hands doesnt mean you can put all the strength used into one hand. Infact all I have seen from Sephiroths TK is larger objects, usually human sized, never anything smaller, its likely he cannot even concentrate his will power or TK (if he really has it) on certain areas.
You are not taking anything in, he can concentrate his willpower onto certain areas, like when he is holding back holy while lifting up Cloud and co while moving all of their limbs etc. Stop making me repeat myself.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The proof is in my profile, biography section, if Kain can take tonnes of force then Sephiroth could never damage him with his weak TK, fact is Sephiroth has not shown the force to smash bones, certainly not the bones and flesh of a being far stronger and this is a stupid argument anyway because Kain could transform into mist or teleport to escape any TK hold.
Whoa that is pretty crazy, he can lift 50 tons, Holy lifted more then that, quicker, and it wasn't even focused on the airship that it lifted and Sephiroth contained holy while also doing everything else.
He could contain the mist with his will, just like he did with holy. Teleport out of TK? Then so could Sephiroth.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The only slightly impressive feat in that video is the very beginning where he slashes the ground up a few times, fact is Kains slash is similiar albiet without flashy effects:
What the hell are you talking about, slamming Genesis several miles into the air is not impressive?
Flying up to him in a second is not impressive?
Slicing up the entire Junon cannon, effortlessly, is not impressive?
Tanking the force of a huge crater causing attack, without a second thought, not impressive?
Yeah, he slashes his sword 4 or 5 times in several different directions creating a wierd angle and choppy cut in the Junon cannon. Kains slash is nothing to that.
Originally posted by Burning thought
YouTube videoKain does about 3/4 slashes in less than a second. Similiar in this battle:
At 0:28 and 0:38
Sorry, gameplay, and nothing in the cinematic showed anything near like Sephiroth or even Yuffie.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Well whats the strength feat of a single jenova cell because the way I see it, its going to be a tiny cells will against Kains Tk......
No, it is Sephiroths will against Kains tk, plus each individual cell vs the force Kain applies to each individual cell. From what I have seen Sephiroths TK is much more powerful then Kains, and Sephiroths will is also much better then Kains tk. (If you want to use Will and TK as something completely different)
Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.
Sorry, Kain doesn't have the speed or reflexes to match Sephiroth or Cloud in a swordfight, even having his opponents kill eachother wouldn't do much (which he couldn't do, because Sephiroth would have already pierced his face), because Sephiroth would kill Cloud and then kill Kain and Raziel. Sephiroth doesn't need blood.
Sephiroth could infect Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus, turning them into monster versions of themselves, under the control of Sephiroth, and all he has to do is be near them.
Originally posted by K1ll3r
But you already admitted he is faster and...(contd)Yes you were, you were trying to deny that Cloud could react to bullets(Because his sword is so big he doesn't need to), which he clearly can.
(contd)...that he has faster reflexes than Raziel.
A. Show me him Tking cells.
B. Show me him Tking cells that can come back together.
C. Show me him destroying cells.Yes, he does use TK. Will is sometimes synonymous with TK.
It burst forth, sending a 1800 ton airship several thousand miles in the air from deep in the planet within 10 - 15 seconds, that is a lot of force. I don't know why you used this analogy, because Holy can clearly move itself into place, whereas water can't. Try harder to make holy seem like nothing please.
TK is exerting your will over things or a physical manifestation of your minds thoughts. e.g. you exert your will to move an arm to pick up a pen, you exert your will to pick up a pen, you tk the pen. I never assumed that.
But you used gameplay before to show how long it took to cast materia? And you use it again later on in this quote.
Show me this taking nearly as long in all ff materia'l'.
Show me him using the materia without any showmanship, just casting, no talking about things and no doing it dramatically.I didn't say he held it like a normal sword. It sure as hell isn't wider than a typical shield. I have no idea what you are rambling on about here, but blocking bullets with a sword is a feat.
Cloud blocking bullets with a fairly thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg
01:50Zack blocking bullets with a very thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D16uzMf8BOk
02:10You are not taking anything in, he can concentrate his willpower onto certain areas, like when he is holding back holy while lifting up Cloud and co while moving all of their limbs etc. Stop making me repeat myself.
Whoa that is pretty crazy, he can lift 50 tons, Holy lifted more then that, quicker, and it wasn't even focused on the airship that it lifted and Sephiroth contained holy while also doing everything else.
He could contain the mist with his will, just like he did with holy. Teleport out of TK? Then so could Sephiroth.
What the hell are you talking about, slamming Genesis several miles into the air is not impressive?
Flying up to him in a second is not impressive?
Slicing up the entire Junon cannon, effortlessly, is not impressive?
Tanking the force of a huge crater causing attack, without a second thought, not impressive?
Yeah, he slashes his sword 4 or 5 times in several different directions creating a wierd angle and choppy cut in the Junon cannon. Kains slash is nothing to that.
Sorry, gameplay, and nothing in the cinematic showed anything near like Sephiroth or even Yuffie.
No, it is Sephiroths will against Kains tk, plus each individual cell vs the force Kain applies to each individual cell. From what I have seen Sephiroths TK is much more powerful then Kains, and Sephiroths will is also much better then Kains tk. (If you want to use Will and TK as something completely different)
Sorry, Kain doesn't have the speed or reflexes to match Sephiroth or Cloud in a swordfight, even having his opponents kill eachother wouldn't do much (which he couldn't do, because Sephiroth would have already pierced his face), because Sephiroth would kill Cloud and then kill Kain and Raziel. Sephiroth doesn't need blood.
Sephiroth could infect Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus, turning them into monster versions of themselves, under the control of Sephiroth, and all he has to do is be near them.
Yes, and....very slightly...
Clearly not, because reacting to something predicatable with something as large as his sword in Advent children for example is not much of a feat at all.
B: That doesnt even make sense that question, you need to prove they can defeat Kains TK force first
C: Thats a stupid question, he could just use one of his many spells, whether it be a blast of fire or w/e, anything, their durability is zero.
Prove this theory, willpower is not quite the same as TK
1800 ton? i am curious how you can be so exact, can you show me where you got that figuire please? not that its relevent, Sephiroth didnt stop holy from doing that feat, show me what Sephiroth stopped holy from doing.
But exerting will to make a particulour object move is not the same as creating a kinetic force with your mind to make it move.
I do not use gameplay when taking materia cast times into account.
I dont have to show either of your negatives, you need to show me a FF character casting a materia quickly in-canon like I just showed Kadaj casting slowly, if you dont like the way he cast the materia then complain to the developers not me.
That sword is hardly thin, its still a large blade against a predictable shooter fireing slowly from long range. That still wont help him at all in a fight against Raziel.....
How is stopping holy and Clouds party "certain areas" their fairly large objects, hes never actually concentrated his force onto a smaller object, nor has he shown to be able to.
Holy did, Sephiroth didnt, Sephiroth did not stop Holy while it was doing that feat, as I said earlier, it was just Holy bursting forth from containment. Infact while contained, Holy is nothing, because its not moving it has zero force.
Contain the mist with his will? Sephiroth has never contained anything of such low density with a will such as Kains, Sephroths teleport is not only slow but also not enough, he cant teleport away from being pulled apart cell by cell.
None of it is impressive because none of it will help him against Kain or Raziel for that matter.
All he does is slice up the front of the cannon, big whoop, we see his fighting speed throughout the video and its not much better than most swordsman in video gaming including Kain, who can match the speed if not surpass it with his superior weapon.
Prove sephiroth can use his will to the same degree while in pieces, hes never done it so your talking nonsense and assuming a lot. His cells will be at Kains mercy.
It wouldnt be a sword fight, one slash and Sephiroth is dead or destroyed, one hand movement and Sephiroths sword is gone nad he would have to take the 1+ seconds to form it again if he even can more than once. Sephiroth is a toy for Kain, nothing more, he could toss him around like a rag doll with Tk and if he even escapes that he would just freeze him in time.....
Another load of nonsense, neither Raziel nor Kain are made out of lifestream, not ot mention show me the virus affecting the dead?
Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, and....very slightly...
First off, show me Raziel moving anywhere, or reacting anywhere near to the ability of bullet blocking. In fact, show me Kain reacting fast enough to think about stopping a bullet when fired.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Clearly not, because reacting to something predicatable with something as large as his sword in Advent children for example is not much of a feat at all.
You didn't watch or read what I posted, try doing that sometime. Read my previous post for this rebuttal.
Originally posted by Burning thought
A: YouTube video
First, that isn't Tking cells.
Second, that is gameplay.
Thirdly, he only sends the blood to him, to absorb, showing he doesn't have as much control over it as you say.
Originally posted by Burning thought
B: That doesnt even make sense that question, you need to prove they can defeat Kains TK force first
No, you need to prove he can mess around with cells, before Sephiroths cells need to prove they can defeat Kains tk force. (Which they wouldn't need to, because Sephiroths will is greater then Kains.
Originally posted by Burning thought
C: Thats a stupid question, he could just use one of his many spells, whether it be a blast of fire or w/e, anything, their durability is zero.
Fire has 0 affect against Sephiroth, another spell please. Plus, he has to destroy all of them and before Sephiroth kills him.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove this theory, willpower is not quite the same as TK
In this context it makes sense that willpower acts like TK, Cloud and co aren't lifted up by nothing.
Originally posted by Burning thought
1800 ton? i am curious how you can be so exact, can you show me where you got that figuire please? not that its relevent, Sephiroth didnt stop holy from doing that feat, show me what Sephiroth stopped holy from doing.
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, go buy a copy, because you don't believe my english translation of it, it has all the vehicle dimensions. So you are saying Holy wasn't trying to do its job, that is illogical, why would it randomly not try and accomplish its goal?
Originally posted by Burning thought
But exerting will to make a particulour object move is not the same as creating a kinetic force with your mind to make it move.
What the hell, analyse your sentence:
Exerting will(which comes from your mind) to make a particular object move. (obviously with force, what else would move it?)
Creating kinetic force with your mind to make it move.
You basically said this:
Using your mind to create force to move something.
Creating force with your mind to move something.
Were you trying to prove that will can be considered tk in this instance?
Originally posted by Burning thought
I do not use gameplay when taking materia cast times into account.
You have, although I guess you haven't lately. But you have.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont have to show either of your negatives, you need to show me a FF character casting a materia quickly in-canon like I just showed Kadaj casting slowly, if you dont like the way he cast the materia then complain to the developers not me.
I showed you materia being used by Zack, and you just shout gameplay. So whatever, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWwb8ASM-i4 here that is, near the end, maximum of 3 seconds to summon Bahamut, still with a speech attached. Now lets see Kains magic.
Originally posted by Burning thought
That sword is hardly thin, its still a large blade against a predictable shooter fireing slowly from long range. That still wont help him at all in a fight against Raziel.....
What the hell, it is thinner than a van, and he still has to react to the bullet and change the position of the sword, you are still clearly in denial of this feat. Raziel could not react to this, he would be shot before he could think, therefore Raziel < Cloud in reaction time therefore <<<< Sephiroth.
Originally posted by Burning thought
How is stopping holy and Clouds party "certain areas" their fairly large objects, hes never actually concentrated his force onto a smaller object, nor has he shown to be able to.
Did you completely ignore the part about him controlling all 32 limbs, that is small, hands, arms, tails, feet, legs, heads. Seriously those a small 'objects'. Smaller than I have seen Kain or Raziel TK.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Holy did, Sephiroth didnt, Sephiroth did not stop Holy while it was doing that feat, as I said earlier, it was just Holy bursting forth from containment. Infact while contained, Holy is nothing, because its not moving it has zero force.
A. Sephiroth held Holy in place.
B. Holy was trying to get to meteor, using the same force that slammed the 1800 ton airship, to try and get to meteor.
C. It changed it's tragectory and still moved at the same speed and force.
D. Just because something is contained doesn't mean it can't exert force, it is just that force can't do anything against something that can contain it.
Start using logic for once please.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Contain the mist with his will? Sephiroth has never contained anything of such low density with a will such as Kains, Sephroths teleport is not only slow but also not enough, he cant teleport away from being pulled apart cell by cell.
A. He brings a spherical force around the mist compressing it in, just like Holy.
B. Sephiroths teleport is not slow, look at the clip I gave you!
C. Sephirohts will exists even when he is dead, or his cells are ripped apart, his cells are like little mini-Sephiroths, they can move.
D. Kain isn't going to pull Sephiroths cells apart because he can't. Simple.
Originally posted by Burning thought
None of it is impressive because none of it will help him against Kain or Raziel for that matter.
Kain couldn't react to Angeal and Genesis attacking him from both sides as easily as Sephiroth could, he has trouble reacting to Raziels slow attacks, let alone the speed at which Sephiroth can attack at.
Originally posted by Burning thought
All he does is slice up the front of the cannon, big whoop, we see his fighting speed throughout the video and its not much better than most swordsman in video gaming including Kain, who can match the speed if not surpass it with his superior weapon.
*sigh* He cuts it in around 4 different angles, in 4 - 5 strikes, within a second, the only place I have seen such crazy speed is in an Afro Samurai movie. Kain has nothing on Sephiroth in speed, awareness, swordsmanship and reflexes, based on those videos you posted.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove sephiroth can use his will to the same degree while in pieces, hes never done it so your talking nonsense and assuming a lot. His cells will be at Kains mercy.
Seraph Sephiroth used it, and was still in pieces. He can exert his will even when he has no cells. I am assuming nothing. No, Kain can't tk cells.
Originally posted by Burning thought
It wouldnt be a sword fight, one slash and Sephiroth is dead or destroyed, one hand movement and Sephiroths sword is gone nad he would have to take the 1+ seconds to form it again if he even can more than once. Sephiroth is a toy for Kain, nothing more, he could toss him around like a rag doll with Tk and if he even escapes that he would just freeze him in time.....
Sorry, show me Kain slicing, attacking and reacting to the degree at which Sephiroth can. Kains tk is less then Sephiroth, and Sephiroth has more of a reflex then Kain, so no, this wouldn't work. No, again Sephiroths tk is greater then Kains. Although, this freeze in time might be effective, lets see him using it...
Originally posted by Burning thought
Another load of nonsense, neither Raziel nor Kain are made out of lifestream, not ot mention show me the virus affecting the dead?
I am not sure why you think the thing that wiped out many planets before Jenova landed on Gaia, then almost destroyed the Ancients is a load of nonsense?
What does the lifestream have to do with this?
The virus doesn't care, it just turns things into monsters, and then it is under the control of Jenova (Sephiroth).
Also, Kain and Raziel are dead? I thought they were undead? They are clearly walking and moving about and have brain function.
Please add something new (Like the freeze time thing, that was interesting!) instead of making me repeat myself AGAIN.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.
Inspire Hate wouldn't do diddly squat to either Cloud or Sephiroth, unless you can prove that spell has worked on beings with high willpower.
Originally posted by K1ll3r
First off, show me Raziel moving anywhere, or reacting anywhere near to the ability of bullet blocking. In fact, show me Kain reacting fast enough to think about stopping a bullet when fired.You didn't watch or read what I posted, try doing that sometime. Read my previous post for this rebuttal.
First, that isn't Tking cells.
Second, that is gameplay.
Thirdly, he only sends the blood to him, to absorb, showing he doesn't have as much control over it as you say.No, you need to prove he can mess around with cells, before Sephiroths cells need to prove they can defeat Kains tk force. (Which they wouldn't need to, because Sephiroths will is greater then Kains.
Fire has 0 affect against Sephiroth, another spell please. Plus, he has to destroy all of them and before Sephiroth kills him.
In this context it makes sense that willpower acts like TK, Cloud and co aren't lifted up by nothing.
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, go buy a copy, because you don't believe my english translation of it, it has all the vehicle dimensions. So you are saying Holy wasn't trying to do its job, that is illogical, why would it randomly not try and accomplish its goal?
What the hell, analyse your sentence:
Exerting will(which comes from your mind) to make a particular object move. (obviously with force, what else would move it?)
Creating kinetic force with your mind to make it move.You basically said this:
Using your mind to create force to move something.
Creating force with your mind to move something.Were you trying to prove that will can be considered tk in this instance?
You have, although I guess you haven't lately. But you have.
I showed you materia being used by Zack, and you just shout gameplay. So whatever, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWwb8ASM-i4 here that is, near the end, maximum of 3 seconds to summon Bahamut, still with a speech attached. Now lets see Kains magic.
What the hell, it is thinner than a van, and he still has to react to the bullet and change the position of the sword, you are still clearly in denial of this feat. Raziel could not react to this, he would be shot before he could think, therefore Raziel < Cloud in reaction time therefore <<<< Sephiroth.
Did you completely ignore the part about him controlling all 32 limbs, that is small, hands, arms, tails, feet, legs, heads. Seriously those a small 'objects'. Smaller than I have seen Kain or Raziel TK.
A. Sephiroth held Holy in place.
B. Holy was trying to get to meteor, using the same force that slammed the 1800 ton airship, to try and get to meteor.
C. It changed it's tragectory and still moved at the same speed and force.
D. Just because something is contained doesn't mean it can't exert force, it is just that force can't do anything against something that can contain it.Start using logic for once please.
A. He brings a spherical force around the mist compressing it in, just like Holy.
B. Sephiroths teleport is not slow, look at the clip I gave you!
C. Sephirohts will exists even when he is dead, or his cells are ripped apart, his cells are like little mini-Sephiroths, they can move.
D. Kain isn't going to pull Sephiroths cells apart because he can't. Simple.
What do you call bullet blocking? a guy pointing a gun at you and fireing in the same direction while you have your sword in the way? the guys accuracy was terrible, as if that requires speed. A normal human with some concentration can move an object the size of Clouds sword in the path of a predicatable bullet.
Ofcourse its Tking cells, thats all blood is ,loose cells, kain would have to have control over the cells to keep the blood together otherwise it wouldnt be going towards him like that.
You have confusion with what is canon and what is not, I thnk your confused between gameplay whcih is usable, and gameplay mechanics, which are not taken into account in a debate due to their nature such as health bars, things in gameplay, e.g. items and powers dont always need a cinematic to state their canon, Kain drinking blood through TK is what he has always done, its a canon ability.
What are you talking about? not as much control? hes moving it..the fact he needs it in his body means nothing, he would send Sephiroths cells somewhere else, like spraying across the air or into Cloud for a joke.
And prove sephiroths will is greater than Kains.....Kain has incredible intellect and willpower....
Against sephiroth or his cells? singulour they may be weak, you would have to prove their durabiliy, Kain has lightning, energy bolts, frost, flame, you name it, not that its relevent ofcourse, most of what he can do would destroy them and he could just toss them to the furthest reaches of the battlefield.
no you see Cloud and co are lifted up by Willpower, you cant assume Sephiroth is actually creating a physical force to lift them which would be what TK is doing, for all we know its some supernatural ability that he just happens to have.
Your talking as if Holy is alive, can you prove its alive? I am sorry but I dont have to go and buy your evidence, if you cant display the evidence in a way I can see it as an offical text its no good.
No you see your the one adding "kinetic" force to the statement, Sephiroth is just making it move, I dont know how and its all nice and well assuming he is creating some sort of TK effect, but tbh its not really relevent, he doesnt affect cells anyway.
Thats what I said before, 3-4 seconds, thats a long time to be standing around in a battle isnt it....when both your opponents with a wave of their hand could stop you from doing it.
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In this video at 4:04 Kain pretty much instantly (less than a second to be exact) creates the repel shield, one which reflects all spells and protects him from physical harm as well. immedialtey Team 1 are screwed. Then you have:
Here (5:07) you see Kain pretty much instantly on a whim blast Raziel with lightning, he didnt take 3 seconds or even close....
Now take into account Kain has a vast amount of such spells which he could obliterate this team with. hes also got reaver spells:
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At 0:43, take into account using the same power he can slow time, instantly teleport through dimension multiple times and cause that inspire hate I mentioned earlier.
lol nonsense, shot before he could think, the gunner was useless, he was slow and predictable. its the kind of shot James bond could regularly dodge. Now give Raziel a huge lump of metal like that sword and he wouldnt hardly have to do anything to stop those bullets.
wtf, where does it state he is controlling every limb? hell where did you get controlling from? all we hear from the team is that they feel like their being torn, nothing about him controlling the limbs at all, hes just lifting them and causing them pain a lot like how Kain does to Moebius. lmao, smaller than blood cells? dont be ridiculous....
B: prove thos
D: if something is contained its force is next ot nothing as soon as its contained, it has zero momentum, like Cloud trying to run when Raziel has him floating about the ground...he wont get any momentum...
A. Prove this is what he did to holy
B. not seen the clip, ive not seen any teleportaton clip in this thread.
C. lol wtf, little mini sephiroths, now your assuming, reaching and making up rubbish, their tiny cells and regardless of his will excisting, you cannot prove it can bring up any force like its shown previously to stop Kain from abusing his cells.
D. oh aye, he will.
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Inspire Hate wouldn't do diddly squat to either Cloud or Sephiroth, unless you can prove that spell has worked on beings with high willpower.
Unless you can point out why a magic spell whos effect is completly magical alteration would be stopped just because of some fools willpower? its like saying willpower will stop a fireball in the air..dont be daft...
Originally posted by K1ll3r
Kain couldn't react to Angeal and Genesis attacking him from both sides as easily as Sephiroth could, he has trouble reacting to Raziels slow attacks, let alone the speed at which Sephiroth can attack at.*sigh* He cuts it in around 4 different angles, in 4 - 5 strikes, within a second, the only place I have seen such crazy speed is in an Afro Samurai movie. Kain has nothing on Sephiroth in speed, awareness, swordsmanship and reflexes, based on those videos you posted.
Seraph Sephiroth used it, and was still in pieces. He can exert his will even when he has no cells. I am assuming nothing. No, Kain can't tk cells.
Sorry, show me Kain slicing, attacking and reacting to the degree at which Sephiroth can. Kains tk is less then Sephiroth, and Sephiroth has more of a reflex then Kain, so no, this wouldn't work. No, again Sephiroths tk is greater then Kains. Although, this freeze in time might be effective, lets see him using it...
I am not sure why you think the thing that wiped out many planets before Jenova landed on Gaia, then almost destroyed the Ancients is a load of nonsense?
What does the lifestream have to do with this?
The virus doesn't care, it just turns things into monsters, and then it is under the control of Jenova (Sephiroth).
Also, Kain and Raziel are dead? I thought they were undead? They are clearly walking and moving about and have brain function.
Please add something new (Like the freeze time thing, that was interesting!) instead of making me repeat myself AGAIN.
Kain cant react to Raziels attacks? when lol, Kain has never actually fought Raziel in anger or with purpose to harm him s you dont know what your talking about, not that speed is relevent for characters who are being dispersed or frozen by TK and time slowing powers.
Cutting and slashing ive shown, although tbh, Ive not seen any sword skills from Sephiroth beyond any typical swordsman, both human or otherwise so you would have to assume Kain is slower and weaker than a human before we can claim he is worse than Sephiroth.
Thier still corpses, Kain for one has no heart and no real functions in his body, the power that keeps him moving would have to be overcome to stop Kain, thing is, Sephiroth has no way of stopping such magical forces, infact its unlikely their even magical but as i said, I doubt oyu can prove the dead are affected by this virus. And its important because lifestream is the source of beings in the FF world.
Stop complaining about having to repeat yourself when your doing the exact same thing to me, unless you want to concede on your points to move onto some new ones?
The time powers I think ive shown you before, youve not seen Kains huge list of powers, they work in exactley the same way as the Repel shield I showed you earlier and Kains reaver blast, only ofcourse with diffrent effects after their casting.
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo2/gifts.php
Originally posted by Burning thoughtAnd prove sephiroths will is greater than Kains.....Kain has incredible intellect and willpower....
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Sephiroth took control of the planet's life force with sheer will, and willed himself back to life.
Unless you can point out why a magic spell whos effect is completly magical alteration would be stopped just because of some fools willpower? its like saying willpower will stop a fireball in the air..dont be daft...
Because the spell would attack the mind? The only people the spell has worked on where weak soldiers.
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
KSephiroth took control of the planet's life force with sheer will, and willed himself back to life.
Because the spell would attack the mind? The only people the spell has worked on where weak soldiers.
Specific powers that are peculier in nature, theres no bar with which to compare how impressive those feats really are tbh....he cant will someone dead, he cant will himself to be in another area, he cant will himself to do a lot of things, their just specific events.
Soldiers, wizards, other vampires etc, still a spell that transforms the thoughts in a beings mind, you would need spell resistance to that kind of magic to stop it, having some willpower wont change a thing lol...
Originally posted by Burning thought
Specific powers that are peculier in nature, theres no bar with which to compare how impressive those feats really are tbh....he cant will someone dead, he cant will himself to be in another area, he cant will himself to do a lot of things, their just specific events.Soldiers, wizards, other vampires etc, still a spell that transforms the thoughts in a beings mind, you would need spell resistance to that kind of magic to stop it, having some willpower wont change a thing lol...
They are still more impressive then ANYTHING Kain has EVER done.
No, you wouldn't. Why, because it's MAGIK in nature? Nah, GTFO. So, by your logic, a being could use a weak spell to manipulate someone who had by far stronger will power, because the spell is magic? Nah.
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
They are still more impressive then ANYTHING Kain has EVER done.No, you wouldn't. Why, because it's MAGIK in nature? Nah, GTFO. So, by your logic, a being could use a weak spell to manipulate someone who had by far stronger will power, because the spell is magic? Nah.
Not at all, some weak ass stream of life, Kain masters life and death and has created his own to a degree not to mention he cannot actually die and is immortal to the degree that if he was in the FF universe the lifestream would never have taken him at all without his effort.
What the hell do you think spell resistance is for? its not just a mental assault, its a magical one, and yes, if you have resistance in one area what good is it if the power up against you is a completly diffrent element...you cant hope just because a suit of armour can shield you from physical blows that it can save you from a fiery or frost one, or a soul devouring one....Sephiroth has barely enough resistance for a full mental assault but this is magical in nature, he prob woudnt even know or realise anythings changed about him, hell suddenly hate Cloud next to him.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Not at all, some weak ass stream of life, Kain masters life and death and has created his own to a degree not to mention he cannot actually die and is immortal to the degree that if he was in the FF universe the lifestream would never have taken him at all without his effort.What the hell do you think spell resistance is for? its not just a mental assault, its a magical one, and yes, if you have resistance in one area what good is it if the power up against you is a completly diffrent element...you cant hope just because a suit of armour can shield you from physical blows that it can save you from a fiery or frost one, or a soul devouring one....Sephiroth has barely enough resistance for a full mental assault but this is magical in nature, he prob woudnt even know or realise anythings changed about him, hell suddenly hate Cloud next to him.
Weak ass stream of life?
The Lifestream is the creator of all the laws of the FF7 world. That includes magic, life, time, matter, everything.
Kain can't die? Is that why he was nearly killed in BO2? Is that why enemies can harm and kill Kain in the games he's been in?
Because the attack is focused on the mind, dur. I don't give a rat's ass if it's magical. Why does that matter? You assume a weak ass attack will take down a stronger person, why?
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Weak ass stream of life?The Lifestream is the creator of all the laws of the FF7 world. That includes magic, life, time, matter, everything.
Kain can't die? Is that why he was nearly killed in BO2? Is that why enemies can harm and kill Kain in the games he's been in?
Because the attack is focused on the mind, dur. I don't give a rat's ass if it's magical. Why does that matter? You assume a weak ass attack will take down a stronger person, why?
Where did it say that? and that still does not mean that its hard to control, hell all it required for it to be defeated is some cells from an alien entity, just because its the energy used in all these features does not make it powerful.
In canon he is rarely harmed and never killed, he cant be, and as shown by Defiance even things that should kill him outright cant. He is immortal and the wheel of life/death cannot take him either.
Whats weak assed about it? you dont know anything about it and Sephiroth has zero spel lresistance, news flash...its a spell, not just a mental attack whihc is why sephiroth would fail to it along with Cloud.
its a spell/magic force making it happen, thus, you would have to be able to stop the magic force from happening, which Sephiroth cannot do. The fact the magic is making his mind think something diffrent, even if we assume he does actually contiously somehow figuire out Kain has just instantly confused his mind with some insidious skill (obvoulsy he wouldnt know in reality) then he still does not have it within his means to stop the magic from affecting his mind, if it was just a psychic power then maybe he could but no, not if its a spell, he has no resistance.