Originally posted by Janus Marius
We should probably try and avoid those definitions, including my previous post, since they're so contradictory and false.
Arguing "form doesn't matter" totally neglects the mindset behind each form itself. If they didn't matter, or they were a connected series of parries, jumps, and swings, they could not be argued to be fighting philosophies, which their descriptions point out. Juyo, for example, is highly emotional but stresses control and master of other philosophies in order to give it diversity. This differs from Niman, which pays lip service to a few styles in a short time to give importance to the real idea behind that form - to be a non-martial Jedi in function. If you were to simply narrow them down to skills, Niman and Juyo would be indistinguishable from an outsider if there was no mental component behind them. They both use the same tools, do they not?
Strawman argument, much? Please don’t take my point out of context; it’s very annoying.
I said form is irrelevant because it is irrelevant as it pertains to being on the defensive in a fight and still having control - not that forms mean nothing whatsoever .
The original argument stemmed over whether or not being on the defensive could mean you still had control over the fight. You had stated in your assessment of the TPM duel that Maul wasn’t in control because he was being pushed back, etc:
Originally posted by Janus Marius
If you watch the fights between Qui-Gon/Obi versus Maul, and compare it with Obi/Anakin in AotC (Or even RotS), you can see how easily he manipulates the fight, whereas Maul is constantly giving ground, and receives a few shrewd blows.
^ I pointed out (with the RotS duel) that being on the defensive can still equate to having the control if that’s what your plan is. And like I said, that was clearly Maul’s plan; as detailed below - he had the advantages on every turn. Rather than push them back, he was leading them a la Dooku in the RotS fight.
Now, to tie this into your assertion about Maul driving the fight; this is not always the case. It's clear from watching the video (Which I've had on loop while typing this up) that he attempts to separate them at any given opportunity, and that he cannot quickly and easily take one of them down out of the fight, nor can he easily kill one. Even when Obi-Wan is effectively kicked down to another walkway and out of the fight, Maul continues to give ground to Qui-Gon for another couple of minutes before finally capitalizing on his opening when he decides to go offensive. I'll step out of the argument here for a second and assert that Maul isn't using Juyo at all in this case. He isn't relying on an emotional well to use bold, direct movements to overwhelm his opponents; he's turtling and positioning them until he can finally render a decisive blow. This isn't too far from the Soresu tree in terms of fighting philosophy. The main difference between how he operates and how Dooku operates is that the latter can give very little ground and manage his opponents with ease, whereas Maul is constantly fighting to keep himself from being boxed in, kicked, backhanded, etc. Maul only controls the fight when he changes his attitude and presses the advantage against a singular opponent. Based on his performance, he is not skilled or confident enough to defeat two capable Jedi in the same manner. Dooku easily manages his opponents and puts them out of the fight when he's good and ready. He controls the pacing, not the Jedi.I wouldn't exactly compare Musfatar and the Duel of Fates either since it doesn't do Maul any favors. Obi-Wan acted very similarly, barely able to contain the pacing of the fight, giving ground and working hard to maintain his neck, whereas Dooku never allows himself to be put in that kind of position. His footwork, pacing, and ability to deflect attacks from almost any angle make him the superior duelist to both.
0:27-0:32 – Obi-wan flips over Maul, attempts to strike him WHILE in midair, casually blocked by Maul. He then attempts to strike from behind, Maul without even so much as breaking his eyes’ lock on Qui-Gon, blocks the attack. Then proceeds to dodge and parry multiple other attacks by Kenobi. All while focusing on Jinn.
What was that you said about “footwork, pacing, and ability to deflect attacks from almost any angle”? 😉
0:34 – Maul jump kicks Qui-Gon, knocking him on his ass for a few moments.
Notice how afterwards Maul cartwheels to the door, opening it with a piece of shrapnel while walking backwards towards the generator area. It’s made evident that this was him leading the duo. He is always giving ground even when his opponents are knocked down and he has the advantage. It is not because he had too, it is because it was his plan, FFS.
0:45 – Kenobi receives a swift boot to the face courtesy of Maul; he’s subsequently knocked on his ass, as well.
Maul jumps, leading Qui-Gon deeper into the generator room. There is about five seconds before Kenobi even appears, very important to note.
0:51 – Maul uses Qui-Gon’s lightsaber as a leverage tool, forcefully pushing his body into the pillar right as Obi-Wan comes back into the duel.
1:05-1:10 – Kenobi tries a feint attack, Maul doesn’t even flinch. After he flips back onto the walkway, he casually blocks two attacks at once with one edge of his lightsaber.
1:11-1:18 Maul is battling Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon with one in front of him, the other behind him. Both of them are attacking . Maul proceeds to snap kick Kenobi off the ledge, taking him out of the fight until the final sequence.
Using your method of “films-only”, it would appear that Maul did in fact have all the advantages, was in control, and was overwhelming them. It was they who struggled against him in every sense of the word. Maul could not find a hole in their defenses, however. This, as I originally said, means your interpretation of the duel was inaccurate. I find it odd how you emphasized the fact you were carefully inspecting the duel, yet are totally misinformed about every single detail. My analysis is concurrent with the novelization, which is canon and valid evidence as you’ll see below.
Now, the reason you see giving ground as an advantage in Dooku’s situation however is because he ends up separating the duo and curbstomping Kenobi. But errrr . . . did you happen to notice how Maul did just them by snap kicking Kenobi off the walkway ?
Maul had to have created several openings to constantly score those melee attacks, Janus. Its well worth it to note that sticking your foot out towards another blade user is generally not a good idea; much more dangerous and SITUATIONAL than something like a lightsaber blade or the Force.
I don't see why folks here at KMC always point me towards novelization passages, which are clearly defined in the canon statements issued by LucasArts as "interpretations" and containing material by GL which may either be changed or embellished. I'm comparing the footage of the actual fights, which makes more sense. What you're suggesting here is that we rely on descriptions by third parties, kind of like I judge Mohammed Ali versus Mike Tyson solely by reading their autobiographies, or reading newspaper descriptions of their fights. It's not the same.
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology." (Star Wars Insider, Issue 1)
Now, when you say that the novelizations are interpretations, I'm wondering what your argument is? Oh, it's nothing more than an interpretation , too. Simply of the movie, and this doesn’t exactly make it anywhere more official than say, a published novel approved by George Lucas himself.
In other words, you're asserting that your interpretation is more accurate than the novel’s , and further, mine. You have absolutely nothing in your corner to support your view of the duel; I do - that’s what makes me right.
The novelizations can be used as evidence so long as they aren't contradicting what is shown on screen (only some minor details during the Maul/Kenobi fight). Indeed, according to Chee, contradictions from ANY SOURCE are dealt with on a case-by-case basis, so as to protect the continuity of said source.
The novelizations can be used as evidence, and I will continue to use them as such. It's your job to refute valid material rather than glossing it over with a faulty comparison.
Again, even when Obi-Wan is removed from the equation and the footing is equal to both, Maul is initially unable to push the advantage, working defense almost up until the moment he overcomes Qui-Gon Jinn. He's not overwhelming his opponents, period. He's playing close to the chest until they make a fatal mistake, but like Obi-Wan, it's entirely too close. He's not leagues above his opponents and leading the whole fight like Dooku. A superior fighter controls the terms of the engagement, he doesn't have to fight to keep himself above water.
"Even when Obi-Wan is removed from the equation . . . He's not overwhelming his opponents, period" - what?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I question the legitimacy of this "injury" if it's not in the script of TPM, I don't see it being legit. This would be like me throwing in some EU flubber that Dooku was suffering from arthritis and gout, and thus Anakin overcame him. I don't think making excuses outside of proper canon really does anything to show Maul is a comparable fighter as Dooku. If anything, it's kind of sad that he has to get a whole book written about him that's topped off with an excuse for his defeat. Almost like fanboys couldn't accept that he wasn't the best or something.
Nothing you described happening in the TPM duel actually occurred in the script, so then...nothing you say is legit either. But, everything I say is:
"The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once [...] outmaneuvering them at every turn.
The SITH LORD drives the JEDI out of the hanger and into the power generator area next door.
Three swords are crossed in an intense display of swordmanship. The JEDI and the SITH LORD fight their way across the narrow bridge of the Theed power generator. DARTH MAUL jumps onto the bridge above them. The JEDI follow, one in front of the SITH LORD and one behind. They continue their sword fight." (The Phantom Menace, script).
And EU is canon, too. We're discussing this on an EU sub-forum after all.
Again, novelizations are interpretations of the movie, not more accurate than the movie itself.
According to Leland Chee himself, they - in fact- are in some areas. For example, in RotS the duel between Mace and Sidious seems excruciatingly slow-paced for supposedly 'leet duelists when watching the movie. Of course, the novelization testifies that they're fighting at whirling speeds. Chee has stated that the novel is right there. Ergo, it's quite clearly inaccurate to claim the novelizations are nothing more than "interpretations".
For further clarifications, see above.
After watching the fight on loop for perhaps the better part of an hour as I type this up, I deliberately rewatched the last minute or two after the meditation sequence. Qui-Gon does initially show a burst of aggression which he did not have before, for all of perhaps twenty or thirty seconds if that.
Qui-Gon dies within thirty seconds, Janus. Stop acting as if he somehow got tired out when there's no indication he did.
Then, as the camera flicks back to show Obi-Wan's red hued face and then back again, you see Maul has almost instantly reversed the tide of aggression and is peppering Qui-Gon with quick, short attacks which the Jedi master is sluggish to respond to, and then in a few seconds it's over.
Your interpretation versus the novelizations versus mine - why is yours right but the other two are wrong? Again, there's nothing in your interpretation that is more logical, reasonable, or backed up than anything in mine. This is the problem with relying solely on the images shown in the movie. It's inane and abiding by canon, doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
I don't see Qui-Gon's "refresher" as being important to the battle, unless you're trying to rationalize something else. A large majority of the flaw I see with Maul's fighting occurrs before this scene, and afterwards if anything, he seems to do better once he knows he can fight the Jedi on his terms. Before this, he is unable to dictate the engagement, and this makes him appear weaker than you claim he is as a fighter.
🙄
So final words: if you intend to argue the battles of the movies with me, please try something other than novelization quoting and rampant assertions. I'm using the source material here, as you should as well. You wouldn't argue the events of KotOR by reading the strategy guide, nor would you argue the World Playoffs by reading an almanac. Don't argue movie fight scenes with filler from a novelization; it doesn't do anything for your point.
Some advice: Try knowing what you're talking about next time.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That was an interesting and enlightening read. Kudos to you, Janus.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
This guy sure knows what he's talking about.
Originally posted by ares834
Where was it said Maul was injured? In TPM novelization?
No, it was the New Essential Guide to Characters, if I'm remembering correctly. Darthsith posted the exact quote ages ago with the exact source and page #...will look up if necessary. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Advent
I said form is irrelevant because it is irrelevant as it pertains to being on the defensive in a fight and still having control - not that forms mean nothing whatsoever .The original argument stemmed over whether or not being on the defensive could mean you still had control over the fight. You had stated in your assessment of the TPM duel that Maul wasn’t in control because he was being pushed back, etc:
The point is, Advent, that Maul's form is stated to be an offensive one, so it would - of course - work best when used in an offensive fashion. Maul doesn't do that much until the point where he engages Qui-Gon in the reactor room. The point that Janus was trying to make is that, despite using a form noted as the probably most offensive one, Maul constantly moves backwards. What is the reason for this? Either he is not in control of the fight and has to give ground (Janus idea) or he is in control of the fight and just gives ground because of some mental issues instead capitalizing on advantages instantly (apparently your version).
I'd chose the path in between and say: Maul had problems fighting Qui-Gon and Kenobi together and he had problems fighting Qui-Gon / Kenobi individually - at least for a brief period of time. There is no other logical explanation why Maul would waste advantages just to lure Qui-Gon to a certain position to kill him. I bet getting his lightsaber cut into pieces and, urm, losing his legs also wasn't part of his "plan", right?
Using your method of “films-only”, it would appear that Maul did in fact have all the advantages, was in control, and was overwhelming them. [...]
Now, the reason you see giving ground as an advantage in Dooku’s situation however is because he ends up separating the duo and curbstomping Kenobi. But errrr . . . did you happen to notice how Maul did just them by snap kicking Kenobi off the walkway ?
See Advent. This is were I start to wonder. You have implemented the video in your posting and then you simply ignore a rather huge part of it, namely everything that happens after Maul has seperated the Jedi by kicking Obi-Wan down to a lower level.
And what happens? Oh yes. The duellist in complete control of the fight gets slapped by Qui-Gon and knocked down to a platform below and barely manages to stay alive when Jinn jumps down on him. He then is driven back by Qui-Gon for 30 seconds before they get trapped between the energy fields. Does that look like somebody being in complete control of the fight?
The point is that Maul does take quite some hits, where nothing of that sort happens to Dooku. Dooku, if you watch the fight in RotS almost casually manhandles his opponents and floors them both simultaneously with two swift actions (chocking Kenobi / kicking Anakin). He shows an entire different level of superiority above Anakin/Obi-Wan than Maul (according to your version) demonstrated against Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan.
Maul had to have created several openings to constantly score those melee attacks, Janus.
Oh. Great. So you want to state that Maul simply lacks Dooku's force mastery and efficiency in combat, thus having to rely on more risky manouvers in order to archieve what he wants? Or is he plain and simply cocky?
The novelizations can be used as evidence so long as they aren't contradicting what is shown on screen (only some minor details during the Maul/Kenobi fight).
Vice versa, the novelizations can be questioned unless they state what is shown in the movie.
"Even when Obi-Wan is removed from the equation . . . He's not overwhelming his opponents, period" - what?
I think Janus is referring to the fact that even when Obi-Wan is gone for the first time (being knocked down to a lower level by a kick from Maul), the Sith Lord continues with moving backwards instead of going into the offensive. And he manages to almost get himself killed. Was that also part of his plan of seperating the Jedi - getting his ass kicked after having archieved that task?
Really, Advent. Do you want to feed us the notion that Maul planned to end up in that room with just one of the Jedi? Because, apparently, he was rather lucky that Obi-Wan didn't move in the room at the same time with Qui-Gon. Not to mention that Maul doesn't even seem to be aware of the function of the energy shield, given that he tests them with his lightsaber. Nice "planning" there...
Nothing you described happening in the TPM duel actually occurred in the script, so then...nothing you say is legit either. But, everything I say is:"The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once [...] outmaneuvering them at every turn.
The SITH LORD drives the JEDI out of the hanger and into the power generator area next door.
Three swords are crossed in an intense display of swordmanship. The JEDI and the SITH LORD fight their way across the narrow bridge of the Theed power generator. DARTH MAUL jumps onto the bridge above them. The JEDI follow, one in front of the SITH LORD and one behind. They continue their sword fight." (The Phantom Menace, script).
And EU is canon, too. We're discussing this on an EU sub-forum after all.
Lmao, Advent. And none of it happens in the movie.
a) He outmanouvers them in every turn - by getting his face smacked by Qui-Gon? Funny.
b) He drives them into the reactor? By running away from them? Yes. Doesn't look like a contradiction to me...
c) He never jumps up from the Jedi, just sidewards at the beginning of the duel, and actually both land in front of him.
According to Leland Chee himself, they - in fact- are in some areas. For example, in RotS the duel between Mace and Sidious seems excruciatingly slow-paced for supposedly 'leet duelists when watching the movie. Of course, the novelization testifies that they're fighting at whirling speeds. Chee has stated that the novel is right there. Ergo, it's quite clearly inaccurate to claim the novelizations are nothing more than "interpretations".For further clarifications, see above.
🙄
There is a reason why only the movies and Lucas own words do count as G-Canon, Advent. And the reason is, that everything besides them is not a depiction of Lucas own thoughts. Hence the action happening on screen retcons the action happening in the novel - see above mentioned examples. That the novel depicts the speed more accurately than the movie would be yours to proof. I imagine that to be a rather hard job, given that the only source that hints to the novel speed being more accurate is - the novel. And even if you should be right with that - and I think in this case, you are - that doesn't mean that novel is right in everything it says. Given the examples above, it's plain and simply wrong with some statements.
Qui-Gon dies within thirty seconds, Janus. Stop acting as if he somehow got tired out when there's no indication he did.
Urm...what? After kicking Obi-Wan down, Maul gets smacked in the face and then is constantly driven backwards into the energy fields for more than 30 seconds, Advent. Then the fight continues for another 30 seconds before Qui-Gon is hit by Maul. So, essentially, you just want to tell us that the guy who was - according to you - in complete control of the fight, needed more than a minute to take Qui-Gon down after getting rid of Kenobi? Yes. That is certainly impressive, especially considering Maul was just lucky to keep them seperated within the energy fields.
So sorry, Advent. But the movie shows that Maul is absolutely not in control of the fight and it also makes it pretty clear that he didn't actually plan to end up in the energy fields. He manages to hold his own against two pretty good swordsman, but also reaches the brink of defeat at least at one occassion (when Qui-Gon slapped him down from the bridge). That Obi-Wan didn't use force speed to cross through the energy fields also counts as luck for Maul. Unless you want to argue that he could have avoided both Jedi for long in that nice room with the hole in the ground.
And while you come up with the novel, I wonder what happened to the rest of the EU. Shall I bring up "Shadow Hunter", where Maul manages to almost get killed by a Padawan? Shall we also ignore the "Essential Guide to the force" which makes it pretty clear that Qui-Gon at times of TPM was on par with Mace Windu in terms of duelling ability. You really think that Maul could that easily "control" a fight facing an opponent like that and Obi-Wan at the same time. Does that really make sense to you?
Now I have one last question: Why, in the blue hell, are we even arguing that when the thread title says "AotC Anakin VS Qui-Gon Jinn"?
So you're telling us that if it's not shown in the movie, it's discarded?
Well, fine by me. I can use Lucas's statement that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor to save Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar unnecessary embarrassment and I get to sink your arguments that Dooku was ordered to spare Anakin and that Yoda disarmed Sidious.
I'm expecting some entertaining remarks about retirement and how you've been authorized to use double standards. Make my day, Nai.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is, Advent, that Maul's form is stated to be an offensive one, so it would - of course - work best when used in an offensive fashion.
My point was, and is still is, Nai, that the versatility of saber combat defeats that entire argument. A fighter must adjust both their attacks and strategy to best suite the situation. In Maul's case, he was attacking offensively and leading the Jedi, which is confirmed by the novelization, script, and actual movie for those of us who have our spectacles equipped.
Maul doesn't do that much until the point where he engages Qui-Gon in the reactor room.
Except for the array of kicks, parries, and blocking attacks from two incoming source? The duo had the advantage of numbers and Maul was still outmaneuvering them to get those melee attacks in.
See, you too apparently don't understand that it is impossible to boot kick someone in the head if you haven't created an opening.
The point that Janus was trying to make is that, despite using a form noted as the probably most offensive one, Maul constantly moves backwards. What is the reason for this? Either he is not in control of the fight and has to give ground (Janus idea) or he is in control of the fight and just gives ground because of some mental issues instead capitalizing on advantages instantly (apparently your version).
Strawman argument; waste of my time, but I'll entertain myself briefly. What's funny here is that I could actually argue he did have mental issues there (even though that wasn't my initial point whatsoever). In the novelization and other EU sources, it's confirmed that Maul absolutely hated the Jedi. He DREAMED about brutally killing Jedi in combat, that was one of his main sources of pleasure, FFS. He wants to demonstrate his SUPERIORITY to the Jedi because...he's crazy as Sith (^_^)!
It's said that Maul loved the fact he was fighting two Jedi. Of course, we saw how he was owning them at every turn; given the evidence, it'd be reasonable to state he wanted to prolong the fight - just like he prolonged Obi-Wan's death instead of capitalizing on the advantage instantly.
So, perhaps you're on to something there. Oh, and by the way, that version up there is supported by canon; Janus' isn't. *Note*: I'm not arguing the above paragraph, just pointing out self-pwnage.
See Advent. This is were I start to wonder. You have implemented the video in your posting and then you simply ignore a rather huge part of it, namely everything that happens after Maul has seperated the Jedi by kicking Obi-Wan down to a lower level.And what happens? Oh yes. The duellist in complete control of the fight gets slapped by Qui-Gon and knocked down to a platform below and barely manages to stay alive when Jinn jumps down on him. He then is driven back by Qui-Gon for 30 seconds before they get trapped between the energy fields. Does that look like somebody being in complete control of the fight?
And...? He gets temporarily smacked down - what are you trying to get at here? After Maul regains his composure by blocking Jinn's incoming attack from above while he was still on the ground, it returns back to Maul leading Jinn.
There's also something totally contradictory here: you point out that Maul doesn't have control because he gets backhanded by Qui-Gon AFTER Kenobi goes down. Now, did you ever notice that Dooku gets kicked square in the chest AFTER Kenobi goes down? Of course, when Anakin kicked him, Dooku didn't fall on his back. But then again, 10 feet /= 100 feet. Nice try though.
The point is that Maul does take quite some hits, where nothing of that sort happens to Dooku.
Stop making shit up, Nai. Maul takes one hit - that's it. The other attacks are courtesy of Maul.
Dooku, if you watch the fight in RotS almost casually manhandles his opponents and floors them both simultaneously with two swift actions (chocking Kenobi / kicking Anakin). He shows an entire different level of superiority above Anakin/Obi-Wan than Maul (according to your version) demonstrated against Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan.
According to the RotS novel, he ends up having to separate them because he acknowledges that they "just-might-beat him".
Vice versa, the novelizations can be questioned unless they state what is shown in the movie.
Too bad for Janus and yourself that they do show what's in the movie, as well as the script.
Lmao, Advent. And none of it happens in the movie.a) He outmanouvers them in every turn - by getting his face smacked by Qui-Gon? Funny.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Doesn't look like a contradiction to me...
^ See above; it happened once; notice how Anakin boots Dooku in what amounts to the same situation.
b) He drives them into the reactor? By running away from them? Yes. Doesn't look like a contradiction to me...
drive, v.
To cause and guide the movement of (a vehicle, an animal, etc.).
Lesson of the day: some words have more than one definition.
c) He never jumps up from the Jedi, just sidewards at the beginning of the duel, and actually both land in front of him.
View 0:45-0:47, please.
There is a reason why only the movies and Lucas own words do count as G-Canon, Advent. And the reason is, that everything besides them is not a depiction of Lucas own thoughts. Hence the action happening on screen retcons the action happening in the novel - see above mentioned examples. That the novel depicts the speed more accurately than the movie would be yours to proof. I imagine that to be a rather hard job, given that the only source that hints to the novel speed being more accurate is - the novel. And even if you should be right with that - and I think in this case, you are - that doesn't mean that novel is right in everything it says. Given the examples above, it's plain and simply wrong with some statements.
Originally posted by Advent
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations." (Star Wars Insider, Issue 1)
Urm...what? After kicking Obi-Wan down, Maul gets smacked in the face and then is constantly driven backwards into the energy fields for more than 30 seconds, Advent. Then the fight continues for another 30 seconds before Qui-Gon is hit by Maul. So, essentially, you just want to tell us that the guy who was - according to you - in complete control of the fight, needed more than a minute to take Qui-Gon down after getting rid of Kenobi? Yes. That is certainly impressive, especially considering Maul was just lucky to keep them seperated within the energy fields.
We're talking about the one-on-one duel with Qui-Gon after they are already all stuck in between the energy shields. Try to keep up with the discussion, please.
And while you come up with the novel, I wonder what happened to the rest of the EU.
ZOMG, Maul is even more awesome?
Shall I bring up "Shadow Hunter", where Maul manages to almost get killed by a Padawan?
Absolutely, you should. PM me the full passages, then post the lines that support whatever point you were going to make here.
Shall we also ignore the "Essential Guide to the force" which makes it pretty clear that Qui-Gon at times of TPM was on par with Mace Windu in terms of duelling ability. You really think that Maul could that easily "control" a fight facing an opponent like that and Obi-Wan at the same time. Does that really make sense to you?
Considering he killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds flat with several disadvantageous factors, yes.
Anoon Bondara - who was stated to be the greatest duelist in the entire order (including Mace and Yoda) - was outmatched when he first saw Darth Maul. You really think that the script, novelization, actual movie, and myself are wrong - despite three out of four of the sources being canon? Does that really make sense to anybody?
Now I have one last question: Why, in the blue hell, are we even arguing that when the thread title says "AotC Anakin VS Qui-Gon Jinn"?
Threads get derailed all the time; it's nothing new. 😄
Originally posted by Gideon
So you're telling us that if it's not shown in the movie, it's discarded?
Oh look. King Gideon came to visit his subject. Bow down. Unfortunatelly, the King is incapable of reading lately, so I have to get some things straight:
1) "Everything not G-Canon can be questioned"
2) "Everything not G-Canon has to be questioned"
3) "Everything not G-Canon can be ignored"
Do you see any difference between those three statments, Gideon? I may give you a hint. My idea is expressed via statement (1). I can understand that, in case of a severe missunderstanding, one might think my idea was (2). But, with all due respect - how in the blue hell did you come up with the idea that I think everything not shown in the movies is automatically discarded (3)?
Either you're simply an ignorant who doesn't care about reading what he wants to argue, or you are a troll that is just searching for trouble. The only alternative would be that you don't have enough grey cells to see the difference between the three statements up there. So? What is it? Ignorant, troll or idiot? Thinking about it, I don't want to waste my freetime with any of the three.
Well, fine by me. I can use Lucas's statement that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor to save Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar unnecessary embarrassment and I get to sink your arguments that Dooku was ordered to spare Anakin and that Yoda disarmed Sidious.
Wow. Ignoratio elenchi happens to be a wide spread desease. So based on the premise that all things not G-Canon shall be ignored [which I never made] you conclude that you can argue like that? Nice, pal. I think I just heard a big fat red herring splashing on the water in the fishbowl of Gideon's dream-world. Is that possible?
I'm expecting some entertaining remarks about retirement and how you've been authorized to use double standards. Make my day, Nai.
I'm expecting some entertaining explanation for your intellectual blackout. After this, you can show me the "double standards". I may give you a hint here: Since my premise was "Everything not being G-Canon can be questioned", I can only commit a double standard by stating that a statement not being G-Canon can not be questioned. Have fun searching.
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
well they were all fart-arsing about when they went to see palpatine.
"Fart-arsing"? lol.
If by "fart-arsing" you mean withdrawing their weapons, igniting them, and assuming combat stance in tandem with their leader.
all looking at windu thinking what to do next.
Where?
And even if that were the case, it's not surprising. None of them have actually fought a Sith Lord before and Mace Windu is a senior member of the council, outranking everyone whose name isn't Yoda.
they got wasted in seconds,
Your point?
They were fighting someone who could take on Yoda; what did you expect?
i think thats a valid reason to question their abilities,
It's not, given the power, skills, and nature of their opponent.
or at least question GLs thoughts on why they were so useless in that fight...
Yeah, that's already happened. In a direct response to "Why did Mace bring the B-Team," George Lucas issued the following statement:
Originally posted by the G-Man
You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor.
Not because everyone else sucks, but because he's just that good. You'll notice that Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Count Dooku aren't mentioned either; it's not because they suck, but they're not good enough to take on Palpatine.
Nai still cries himself to sleep on that one, so don't worry.
Originally posted by Exodus
THANK YOU
You're welcome.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm expecting some entertaining explanation for your intellectual blackout. After this, you can show me the "double standards". I may give you a hint here: Since my premise was "Everything not being G-Canon can be questioned", I can only commit a double standard by stating that a statement not being G-Canon can not be questioned. Have fun searching.
"Fart-arsing"? lol.If by "fart-arsing" you mean withdrawing their weapons, igniting them, and assuming combat stance in tandem with their leader.
by 'fart-arsing' i meant...they were taking on a ruthless sith who they knew had been influencing everything since ep1, and they walk in all sanctimonious saying "by order of the republic and galactic senate, you're under arrest" like palpatine was gonna get up and say, "chain me boys"...my left nut is he...
And even if that were the case, it's not surprising. None of them have actually fought a Sith Lord before and Mace Windu is a senior member of the council, outranking everyone whose name isn't Yoda.
I know that palpatine was an "uber" opponent...but seriously
worst lineup ever. if anyone should have gone to take palpatine on, it should have been windu, yoda, and kenobi. i know they were all doing their own things at the time but still...
yoda was a bit big headed trying to take palpatine on his own if not even 4 council members could cut him down...
if it wasn't for anakins whiny little ass the original trilogy wouldn't exist...windu would've taken palpatine in a heart beat after he parted him from his saber...
Originally posted by Advent
My point was, and is still is, Nai, that the versatility of saber combat defeats that entire argument. A fighter must adjust both their attacks and strategy to best suite the situation. In Maul's case, he was attacking offensively and leading the Jedi, which is confirmed by the novelization, script, and actual movie for those of us who have our spectacles equipped.
Except for the array of kicks, parries, and blocking attacks from two incoming source? The duo had the advantage of numbers and Maul was still outmaneuvering them to get those melee attacks in.See, you too apparently don't understand that it is impossible to boot kick someone in the head if you haven't created an opening.
It's said that Maul loved the fact he was fighting two Jedi. Of course, we saw how he was owning them at every turn; given the evidence, it'd be reasonable to state he wanted to prolong the fight - just like he prolonged Obi-Wan's death instead of capitalizing on the advantage instantly.
There's also something[b] totally contradictory here: you point out that Maul doesn't have control because he gets backhanded by Qui-Gon AFTER Kenobi goes down. Now, did you ever notice that Dooku gets kicked square in the chest AFTER Kenobi goes down? Of course, when Anakin kicked him, Dooku didn't fall on his back. But then again, 10 feet /= 100 feet. Nice try though.
Stop making shit up, Nai. Maul takes one hit - that's it. The other attacks are courtesy of Maul.
According to the RotS novel, he ends up having to separate them because he acknowledges that they "just-might-beat him".
drive, v.To cause and guide the movement of (a vehicle, an animal, etc.).
Lesson of the day: some words have more than one definition.
We're talking about the one-on-one duel with Qui-Gon after they are already all stuck in between the energy shields. Try to keep up with the discussion, please.
Considering he killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds flat with several disadvantageous factors, yes.
Anoon Bondara - who was stated to be the greatest duelist in the entire order (including Mace and Yoda) - was outmatched when he first saw Darth Maul. You really think that the script, novelization, actual movie, and myself are wrong - despite three out of four of the sources being canon? Does that really make sense to anybody?
if it wasn't for anakins whiny little ass the original trilogy wouldn't exist...windu would've taken palpatine in a heart beat after he parted him from his saber...
You do know Palpatine "being weak" was just a put on, right? If Palpatine would have continued with his lightning assault, Windu would have been overpowered, because clearly Windu was not putting on; he was really struggling with it.
Do you think that if Anakin was not there, Palpatine would have sit there and let Mace chop his head off?