Janus Marius
Plo Koon Rulez!
Or conversely, the guy might actually be quick enough to stab under your guard and kill you. Are you seriously going to tell us GL's intent in the scene was that Jedi Council Members are idiots as opposed to establishing the Emperor as a threat?
Firstly, you need to stop bolding your entire argument. It makes it painful to read. I'm not sure if that's a tag malfunction, but I have to copy this thing into Word just so I can read it.
Secondly, if you're arguing a stance that Sidious was "so quick he stabbed under someone's guard", you have to further evaluate the speed of the guard penetrated. If someone is shanked in miliseconds in close range and has no defense, then it would be sufficient to say their defenses were overcome by superior speed. However, if they are overcome by an attack which is straightforward and coming from across the room proceeded by visible signs of aggression and signs of oh... about to get stabbed, and no defensive measures are taken beyond the initial combat stances which was already in place before the attack began, then it is silly to consider this attributive to Sidious' superiority instead of the Jedi's stupidity.
To use a more appropriate analogy, I've never fought a jeet kun do practitioner before. If I let one run across the room and kick me in the face without even trying to move to react, can I be argued to be one of the premier fighters of my group and generation? That is, unless I was mentally retarded and the best face puncher on the short bus.
If a bear is charging you head on, then you're likely a dead man regardless. Not a very good analogy.
The whole point is reaction is key. I might get away from a bear under certain circumstances, but if I don't react at all, I'm sealing my fate. To replace the bear with a knife fighter would only make the point clearer.
This is a poor argument. Anakin and Obi-wan would've been taken apart by Palpatine- Yoda outright tells Obi-wan he'll never be able to face Palpatine.
And half the Jedi Temple...yeah, who is he, Marka Ragnos? It's not like GL was referring to individuals there.
The implication is, if you aren't Mace or Yoda in ROTS, you can't compete. That means if Palpatine goes to kill you in Revenge of the Sith and your name is not Mace or Yoda, then you are more likely than not going to die very fast
I'm simply using the absolute argument you've provided. You said that only "Mace and Yoda" can compete with the Emperor, to the exclusion of all else. But when I make further implications using that statement as fact, suddenly there's limitations? So is it absolute or is it not? If it is not, then it stands to reason there's some speculation that comes into play. Obviously, even in the movies, an entire Jedi army could defeat Sidious. So could a Death Star, or a low flying TIE fighter. There's a ton of things which can "take" the Emperor. The context of this statement has yet to be substantiated, but since that's an assertion on your part, I'm sure you'll do your best to prove up.
As opposed to EVERY SINGLE FIGHT in this entire series telegraphing every single attack and leaving gaping openings that would get any fighter butchered in a real duel? It seems odd to extend standards to this one fight when every single one is full of issues. By contrast, how do you explain Palpatine moving at much, much superior speeds when he fights Yoda?
You're missing the whole point though - while SW fighting does not conform to real world martial arts in anything other than stylistic references, we still have to apply common sense and objective reasoning when assessing these fights. We can't say "SW fights aren't realistic, therefore logic doesn't apply. Sidious struck first, therefore he's quicker and superior". This kind of muddled thinking doesn't benefit anyone. If a veteran soldier stands out in a field and gets shot because he simply refuses to get down, can anyone argue that the sniper is the better gunfighter? I realize some suspense of disbelief is required, but that's stretching it. If Luke Skywalker did nothing while Vader kicked him in the balls, would we say Vader is a better fighter?
I hope you see the points I'm driving home.
He jumped, landed, stabbed up as he was coming out of it and quickly ran Agen through, then spun and cut down Saesee before Saesee could strike at him.
Are you also going to argue Mace Windu sucks? Because he and Kit are just hanging back as Palpatine kills their comrades?
Mace Windu is the only person who reacted to the onslaught. He specifically steps back and into a defensive posture, closer to the hallway. The other Jedi did nothing, although Kit eventually attempted to manage a defense and was killed anyways.
So again, where are you getting that Sidious is a superior fighter because his opponents are completely brain dead?
Oh, dear lord, Janus, this is faulty and you know it. Lucas is addressing individuals there. He is saying 'Mace or Yoda.' The leeway elsewhere would be an unburnt Anakin and Luke, by virtue of being able to become what his father couldn't. Absolute statements from Lucas are sure as hell absolute. At what point do you get Lucas going from just discussing individuals who can compete with the main villain to equating this relatively open and shut statement with something it was never intended to meat to discredit it?
But you were using the statement as an absolute (And so was Escape, to a disgusting degree even), when I put forth flaws in that approach, you pull back and go "Oh, silly, absolute GL statements only apply for individuals". Do they? Does this statement consider all scenarios we discuss here today? Does it consider each character in the series deeply and their merits, or does it just relate to the only people who challenged Sidious in RotS? Context would be helpful if you actually wanted to prove your point instead of mindlessly arguing it.
I find it hard to see how this statement is vague. At all.
I'm thinking of a quote from a famous person about the unexamined life right now...
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a sudden sneak attack on a completely distracted opponent to be 'competing,' unless you want to argue Palpatine 'competed' with Plagueis when he killed him in his sleep, combat-wise, or every Sith Lord who clandestinely murdered people who would kick their asses in combat were competing martially with them as well.
Know why he didn't include Vader there? Because in a straight up fight, Palpatine would butcher Vader as easily as he did Agen and Saesee, that's why.
Context. What's the context then? Does this absolute statement warp to fit your agenda, or can you provide surrounding dialogue from GL which indicates what exactly this is referring to? Escape's statement implies that it's referring to the virtually small-time Jedi masters who accompanied Mace Windu, and not any other major characters in the film, or considering other situations.
Janus, seriously, you need to stop taking these statements to absurd levels, because it makes your argument borderline absurd and kills the good points therein. I wasn't aware 'George Lucas' was a clever front for Jerry Siegel and Akira Toriyama who are also the same person.Suffice to say We are discussing in the context of Star Wars and Star Wars alone . Lucas has no authority on fictional worlds he has nothing to do with.
Good job, Captain. I'm simply illustrating that an absolute statement by itself is not the end-all of a debate. You need to be able to substantiate its validity in this argument, or it has no place here. Simply slinging it out and expecting people to be wowed is the philosophical equivalent of making fire with a lighter and hoping to impress the natives. Sooner or later one of them is going to figure out it's all bullshit.