Originally posted by leonidasThis isn't real life.
when has gladiator ever used lightspeed punches in a battle again . . .? or ever blitzed someone on a planet (or elsewhere) at lightspeeds? if he did, you DO know the havoc that would cause (even speeds anywhere CLOSE to c) to the planet, right? so, anyone?
Originally posted by quanchi112
If you completely dismiss the comics and argue powerset, perhaps. Read the comic. We don't argue based on powersets alone on here. King Hyperion certainly does.
facepalm
Your assumptions aside, I'm not simply arguing powerset, I'm arguing powerset and on panel feats when placed in a non-plot driven scenario, as in a KMC battle. It doesn't matter how a battle was written here. Sans a plot, given what Gladiator has done on panel, there's no reason he'd allow Hulk to lay a finger on him. These are hypothetical battle scenarios on KMC, don't forget. We're not simply taking the exact scripted actions performed on a comic book page and swapping character A for character B in the exact same manner. That would suit absolutely no purpose whatsoever and be completely illogical.
Originally posted by illadelph12Who has Glads fought that couldn't lay a finger on him? I want you to provide examples of this. The point is he uses his speed here and there in fights, but never the entire time to run laps around the other person. Hulk was man enough to counter Glads' attempts at winning the fight. This is kmc not cbr.
facepalmYour assumptions aside, I'm not simply arguing powerset, I'm arguing powerset and on panel feats when placed in a non-plot driven scenario, as in a KMC battle. It doesn't matter how a battle was written here. Sans a plot, given what Gladiator has done on panel, there's no reason he'd allow Hulk to lay a finger on him. These are hypothetical battle scenarios on KMC, don't forget. We're not simply taking the exact scripted actions performed on a comic book page and swapping character A for character B in the exact same manner. That would suit absolutely no purpose whatsoever and be completely illogical.
This is a slugfest. WW Hulk ends him 10 out of ten times.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Who has Glads fought that couldn't lay a finger on him? I want you to provide examples of this. The point is he uses his speed here and there in fights, but never the entire time to run laps around the other person. Hulk was man enough to counter Glads' attempts at winning the fight. This is kmc not cbr.This is a slugfest. WW Hulk ends him 10 out of ten times.
facepalm
That's an assinine argument to begin with. First of all, just because in a plot driven scenario, in a plot driven medium, mind you, an action is depicted to occur, does not mean that when you remove the confines of said plot you will still arrive at the exact same result. Also, just because a specific action has not been depicted on panel does not mean a character is incapable of performing it. 98% of comicdom has not been depicted as urinating. Am I supposed to assume that almost every comic book character is incapable of using the bathroom, or would logic dictate that, due to the premise of comics, and that these characters are written to act and depict humans/humanoids, they would be capable of normal human bodily functions?
These are concepts called deductive reasoning and line of inference.
If Gladiator is stated to be able to move at multiples of the speed of light, has on panel sped himself up to be able to interact with characters moving at the speed of light, and has maneuvered and traveled at the speed of light, as well as Gladiator being depicted as punching many people, then, taking into account his ability to move at such rates of speed, and also his ability to punch, you could deduce that he could, I don't know, combine those two depicted abilities, and be able to punch at the rate of speed at which he is both stated, and depicted, to move at, since a punch is simply a motion, for one, and secondly, he can move that fast? This has gotten ridiculous.
Originally posted by leonidas
when has gladiator ever used lightspeed punches in a battle again . . .? or ever blitzed someone on a planet (or elsewhere) at lightspeeds? if he did, you DO know the havoc that would cause (even speeds anywhere CLOSE to c) to the planet, right? so, anyone?
But as far as very fast punching speed and bullrushing/blitzing, he's done so to the Reed hologram, Thor amped to relativistic speeds, Hyperion, Rachel Phoenix, Thor, Korvus, Havok, Polaris, Groot, Classic Wonder Man, etc. Plus charging in from the atmosphere to disarm ground weapon systems at near-light speeds.
I never suggested that anyone who depicts Gladiator not tossing lightspeed punches that shatter planets is guilty of PIS. I very clearly laid out what was PIS in that story, though.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's not pis to me for the simple reason that glads seemed to underestimate hulk, and by the time he figured it out, it was over.
Originally posted by leonidas
stopped a blitz attempt
And A) makes zero sense because if Gladiator did underestimate him then there's no reason for him to be attempting a BFR in the first place.
Originally posted by leonidas
would hulk win a rematch? depends on how gladiator fought. glad's could certainly win, but this loss makes sense to me. if they went h2h, hulk would likely win the next time as well.
Originally posted by leonidas
if someone wants to claim a battle is PIS there is no further point in debating it. but you best be ready to make that PIS claim a very far reaching one indeed.
I already laid out the case for why it is PIS. Lots of people see it. I don't know why you can't.
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's not right at all, considering that Hulk was punching him repeatedly after Gladiator was unconscious and weakened from the reactor, and still couldn't kill him before Hulk's pseudo-son stopped him.I know you don't like it when people cry "PIS" over something, because its usually a copout, but in this case it fits. I mean, this takes place just several months after that lame DC vs. Marvel crossover, in which the fanvote went against Hulk and so he lost to Superman. So what does Marvel do to make the Hulk fanboys happy? Toss in a random appearance by the Imperial Guard and Gladiator, Marvel's Superman, in the Hulk's '97 annual just to "show" those same fans that Hulk can beat a Superman-esque character. Even ignoring the fact that it was PIS, there were a few noticeable things:
Hulk charges Glads from behind to no discernible effect. Gladiator's only blow of the fight knocks him clear off of him and out of that panel. Glads is uninjured and brushing off the dirt on his uniform. Hulk leap-dives at Glads, again from behind, and pounds him into the ground one more time. Again, Glads doesn't seem to be fazed by it, because the next thing we see, Glads has Hulk in a bear-hug and is flying him into orbit, with Hulk marveling at Kallark's durability. That's when Hulk thunderclaps his ears...and obviously, if you have super hearing, that's going to be a major b*tch. Even so, both falling from space and surviving re-entry, it looks like Glads is the first one to get up, and definitely the first to attack, using his HV to do so....Hulk's one impressive feat to me in this fight occurs here, where he walks through the HV while being torn apart by it and places his hand over Kallark's face, causing feedback and making Gladiator flash-fry his own brain to KO himself!
So, completely neglecting forum fight rules and them fighting at peak capacity, using all their abilities such as speed (which if Kallark had done, Hulk would've been toast), etc...let's take a look at things which could have gone differently if PIS hadn't affected that fight:
Gladiator could have chosen not to grab Hulk and take him into outer space. He could have thrown him into orbit. Or punched him into orbit. Or, here's an idea, taken more than 3 seconds to do so (Hulk explains how he had about 3 seconds to do something...this from someone who regularly flies at FTL speeds). Without that, no thunderclapping his ear, no damage to Kallark.
How about The Hulk's durability in his hand being dramatically better than The Hulk's durability in his chest region? I mean, Hulk's chest was being ripped open and Hulk admitted it was killing him. Yet, he can use his hand to block it at even a closer range (right up against Glads' eyes). Come again?
Glads having the ability to...I don't know...stop his heat vision when Hulk puts his hand over his face to avoid frying his own brain with feedback? I mean, I hadn't realized that Kallark had Cyclops' problem. He forgets to stop blasting Hulk. Really? Please.
Hulk both magically knowing that Gladiator has a weakness to radiation, and then knowing exactly what type of radiation it is. 😱 Wow, Hulk's got cosmic awareness, too!
And the final piece of evidence....the fight takes place in a Hulk book! Y'know, the same books where they have Hulk KOing Hyperion with one thunderclap and physically beating a 10x stronger than average Berserk Thor.
Yes. The Gladiator/Hulk fight was highly PIS. Not only that, but it didn't even conclusively prove that Hulk was physically superior to Gladiator, even with the PIS. Anyone who has the fight available, go back and read it, then look at my analysis...Gladiator gets one punch off in the whole fight, and that punch seems to affect Hulk far more than any single blow Hulk lands. Moreover, its Gladiator who KOs himself. Etc.
But I could have skipped writing all that and just proved it was PIS by using this very simple statement: Someone who possesses Superman-level traveling and combat speed landed one punch against The Hulk in their whole fight.
Jesus. facepalm
Originally posted by illadelph12We don't ignore their fights. You want to ignore it and argue based on powerset. That isn't what we do here. How many times do I have to tell you?
facepalmThat's an assinine argument to begin with. First of all, just because in a plot driven scenario, in a plot driven medium, mind you, an action is depicted to occur, does not mean that when you remove the confines of said plot you will still arrive at the exact same result. Also, just because a specific action has not been depicted on panel does not mean a character is incapable of performing it. 98% of comicdom has not been depicted as urinating. Am I supposed to assume that almost every comic book character is incapable of using the bathroom, or would logic dictate that, due to the premise of comics, and that these characters are written to act and depict humans/humanoids, they would be capable of normal human bodily functions?
These are concepts called [b]deductive reasoning
and line of inference.If Gladiator is stated to be able to move at multiples of the speed of light, has on panel sped himself up to be able to interact with characters moving at the speed of light, and has maneuvered and traveled at the speed of light, as well as Gladiator being depicted as punching many people, then, taking into account his ability to move at such rates of speed, and also his ability to punch, you could deduce that he could, I don't know, combine those two depicted abilities, and be able to punch at the rate of speed at which he is both stated, and depicted, to move at, since a punch is simply a motion, for one, and secondly, he can move that fast? This has gotten ridiculous. [/B]
You can't name any examples. What else do you have to add other than a concession?
Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't ignore their fights. You want to ignore it and argue based on powerset. That isn't what we do here. How many times do I have to tell you?You can't name any examples. What else do you have to add other than a concession?
Now that doesn't really apply here because this thread involves strength/durability only, but in a regular old "Hulk vs Gladiator" thread we'd assume that Glads would be using his speed to the fullest.
Listen peeps.
In a SLUGFEST. Barring BFR. WWHulk wins 10/10.
Name ANY character that has beaten Hulk in a slugfest other than Superman.
Not to mention Hulk HAS beaten full confidence Glad's before. WWH could do just as much and with less effort. It's FACT. Glad's is NOT one of those cosmic "more godly-than-godly" characters. He's just an alien with superpowers. Hulk's beaten worse before. Savage Hulk might not always win this fight, but WWHulk DOES.
Originally posted by Master Court
Listen peeps.In a SLUGFEST. Barring BFR. WWHulk wins 10/10.
Name ANY character that has beaten Hulk in a slugfest other than Superman.
Not to mention Hulk HAS beaten full confidence Glad's before. WWH could do just as much and with less effort. It's FACT. Glad's is NOT one of those cosmic "more godly-than-godly" characters. He's just an alien with superpowers. Hulk's beaten worse before. Savage Hulk might not always win this fight, but WWHulk DOES.
😆
Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't ignore their fights. You want to ignore it and argue based on powerset. That isn't what we do here. How many times do I have to tell you?You can't name any examples. What else do you have to add other than a concession?
Quigga please. I'm not ignoring the fight at all. By rule and premise of forum battles we don't just take into consideration the outcome of on panel fights in a story. These threads aren't re-enactments of stories. On panel fights count as feats, granted, however, we still must take into consideration the circumstances of the fight, a character's standing in similar situations, what a character is capable of as a whole, etc., because here on KMC the battles are not plot driven, which on panel battle outcomes unilaterally are.
Though I'm actually not surprised you can't grasp that concept.
Originally posted by EnyalusYou're misrepresenting what I said. You're asking for light speed punches, when all I said was any laymen knows that it taking more than three seconds for Gladiator to travel from the Earth into orbit is absurd.
But as far as very fast punching speed and bullrushing/blitzing, he's done so to the Reed hologram, Thor amped to relativistic speeds, Hyperion, Rachel Phoenix, Thor, Korvus, Havok, Polaris, Groot, Classic Wonder Man, etc. Plus charging in from the atmosphere to disarm ground weapon systems at near-light speeds.
and none of those was noticeably faster than what he did to hulk. polaris and groot--that recent blitz was undoubtedly SLOWER than what he did to hulk. that thor fight took place on reed's vessel where they were BOTH protected and fighting at the same speeds.
so again--where did he ever blitz anyone with greater speed than he blitzed hulk? it was the same stunt he pulled against supreme only hulk clapped first. 😬
to be PIS shouldn't he have actually DONE it to someone first?
I never suggested that anyone who depicts Gladiator not tossing lightspeed punches that shatter planets is guilty of PIS. I very clearly laid out what was PIS in that story, though.
not really. you are staying he'd didn't use his powers to their utmost, hence it's PIS. i'm saying he almost NEVER uses his powers to their utmost and beyond that we don't even know what his UTMOST is. PIS is excused in the forum--CIS is still in place.
If you take that stance then its CIS, to which he wouldn't fall victim to in another, later battle.
i agree. hence why i said glad's could beat regular hulk.
But the HV hand thing is still strictly PIS.
not necessarily. he was confident. easy to understand that he thought he would kill hulk before hulk reached him. glad's wouldn't necessarily back off in that situation based on his character. in a battle with thor, he said he couldn't even recall the last time an opponent knocked him off his feet! he's certainly not one to 'overestimate' an opponent . . .
No, he did not. It was a bullrush BFR attempt. And it was either A) Gladiator grossly underestimating him by flying him around so slowly or B) PIS.
from stationary to orbit in less than 3 secs is more than a 'bullrush' and is about all we ever see from glad's as regards combat speed.
And A) makes zero sense because if Gladiator did underestimate him then there's no reason for him to be attempting a BFR in the first place.
again, not necessarily true at all. BFR is a great, easy way for him to win. easy to see he wouldn't have thought hulk would be able to counter the effort or do enough damage to harm him.
Even if it went H2H, if you base it solely off of the Hulk Annual, then Gladiator still wins. Gladiator was completely unphased by the punches and cheap shots Hulk landed. He also recovered from atmospheric re-entry first, even though he had that to recover from and the thunderclap. His durability was shown to be far higher than Hulk's and he also displayed the ability to kill Hulk with HV. Their strength was at the very least comparable, considering Gladiator's punch knocked Hulk out of the panel and at the very least 30 or so yards away.
except he lost. 😄
I already laid out the case for why it is PIS. Lots of people see it. I don't know why you can't.
lots of people cry PIS ALL the time. i very rarely agree. in a second fight things could be very different. going through glad's combat history, to do all the things people SAY he SHOULD have done would be CIS. why? because (like thor) he rarely or NEVER exhibits all those powers in combat against ANYONE. hence the problem with PIS--it's entirely subjective and can't be argued against and when appiled to one issue, it should and must by logic be applied to others.
But I could have skipped writing all that and just proved it was PIS by using this very simple statement: Someone who possesses Superman-level traveling and combat speed landed one punch against The Hulk in their whole fight.Jesus. facepalm
except glad's has nothing even CLOSE to superman's resume, especially in terms of combat speed feats and more importantly, DODGING feats. glad's fights h2h more often than not, and NOT at superspeeds, trusting his durability and strength. you can argue that's PIS. i say his most consistent feats dictate his character and that to battle the way everyone thinks he should would be CIS.