Completed Palpatine Essay

Originally posted by Janus
You still haven't answered the question:

How is Sidious finding the time to both acquire this information, study it, master it, and implement it? How could he even find the time to travel to millions of planets? Even to send one of his most trusted scouts to millions of planets specifically looking for worthy Force lore is a stretch. This kind of loose hyperbole should be substantiated, not accepted on blind faith.

You still haven't been paying attention:

The line is "over a million worlds," not millions. There's no telling how much Force knowledge is on any given planet; there's no indication that there is necessarily an overabundance of arcana.

You, of course, don't like the line because it proves that Sidious is more knowledgeable in the Force than his predecessors. That's not a basis for the statement to be discarded; it was quite specific and mentioned a group of cults whose disciplines were among the horded knowledge. Even if it seems like a stretch, it's even more dubious that three million clones were able to protect the whole of the Republic and fight on even terms with a Confederacy whose total army numbered in the quadrillions.

Don't like it? Too bad.

Originally posted by Janus
I'm tired of debating with you, Escape. Go preach to the other people who can't be bothered to evaluate their own opinions and use reason to come about proper answers. You aren't worth the time to reply to anymore.

Hmm... it's probably that sort of hypocrisy that led to everyone abandoning every other idea you've ever had. Ever. You need to, like, not change your standards whenever it suits you, Janus. Maybe then people will actually give a shit what you say, eh?

Originally posted by RaidenDeadpool
It's not open for debate?

Yes, that is what I said.

If I recall correctly he was shot to death and his spirit was dragged into the netherworld. A strange way to day for the master of the galaxy.

That's pretty stupid.

Qui-Gon was owned by Maul; Darth Maul was bisected by a neophyte padawan; Dooku was humiliated by a complete moron; Grievous was shot with a blaster after a couple rounds of humiliation; Mace Windu got his hand hacked off and knocked out a window; Obi-Wan let himself die; Yoda died an unremarkable death in a hut on a backwater world; Palpatine was killed because he didn't take the time to so much as look behind him.

How he died has nothing to do with his power. Particularly when he was already on the verge of death and still curbstomped two Jedi and Leia, and "the Force and every Jedi before [Luke]" had to see that he remained in the netherworld.

Lame argument.

He was powerful. Indeed. But he wasn't the most powerful. I think he shared the top tier with the likes of Yoda, Skywalker/Vader, Dooku, Windu and others.

Eh? I go to the trouble of posting a multi-page essay proving this and your response is: "NO ITS WRONG AND I THINK YODA AND OTHERS ARE EQUAL TO HIM?"

Welcome to the world of logic. You make a claim, you have to prove it. You don't look evidence in the eye and say "you're wrong" and offer your own opinion -- and just your opinion -- as a counterargument. It doesn't fly.

I apologize if that came off rude, Raiden, but you ignored twelve pages of incontrovertible evidence supporting Palpatine's status above all other Force users; you didn't just disagree with it (which you're entitled to do), you flat out told me I was wrong and didn't offer evidence. Just an opinion.

I take offense to that. But, once again, I apologize if that came off as rude.

And on that note: I'm in New Jersey and will be on vacation between here, Pennsylvania, and New York City for the next three weeks. Expect posts to be sporadic.

Originally posted by Gideon
You, of course, don't like the line because it proves that Sidious is more knowledgeable in the Force than his predecessors.

Lmao. Yes, Gideon.
Because a statement that doesn't say anything about the quality or quantity of the knowledge that Sidious gained, with the exception that it was more, than he himself did expect to learn, can be counted as "proof" for something...

You really have a special gift for drawing conclusions out of nowhere.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao. Yes, Gideon.
Because a statement that doesn't say anything about the quality or quantity of the knowledge that Sidious gained, with the exception that it was more, than he himself did expect to learn, can be counted as "proof" for something...

You really have a special gift for drawing conclusions out of nowhere.

Well it was believed he mastered every force technique known. That, too, can be counted as proof for something.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well it was believed he mastered every force technique known. That, too, can be counted as proof for something.

The keyword in this sentence being the "believed". It is "believed" that he mastered every known technique. Who did believe that? Why did they believe it?

That shall be counted as proof? So...that it is believed that God exists counts as proof for God's existance? That's a huge revelation. And an interesting concept. Because if one single person doesn't believe something, than it's also "proven" that the thing the person doesn't believe in hasn't happened or doesn't exist.

I hope, you have understood now, while that sentence can not be counted as proof. Unless somebody wants to proof that some people believed that Sidious mastered all known force techniques. That would work. Anything else? Nope.

"With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, [Palpatine] gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia. Coupled with perversions of the secrets he ripped from the living minds of Jedi he captured during the Purge, he learned more than he ever
expected."

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

(You can all expect "ambiguous," "vague," or "hyperbole" [or all three?] used as the crux of Nai or Janus's next post.)

Originally posted by Gideon
"[b]With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, [Palpatine] gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia. Coupled with perversions of the secrets he ripped from the living minds of Jedi he captured during the Purge, he learned more than he ever
expected."

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

(You can all expect "ambiguous," "vague," or "hyperbole" [or all three?] used as the crux of Nai or Janus's next post.) [/B]

I've already demonstrated, why those statement is vague. That Gideon can't stand this fact is not my problem. But just for the record, I can do it once more, point by point:

1) We don't have any idea about the quality or quantity of those "greatest works of knowledge". Those can, technically, be two essay about the use of force lightning and force grip. To assume that those were tons of magnificent items of force lore (which Gideon seems to do) is not supported by the original statement. Which means, surprise, that it is an unsupported assumption. I wasn't aware that assumptions count as "proof" nowadays.

2) Considering that most force users in the history of the Galaxy belonged either to the Jedi or the Sith, the amount of force knowledge that could be found on those planets - and not being in the possession of one of those orders - must be rather low. Why? Because "force knowledge" does actually require a force user to leave it behind. That suggests a low quantity of force knowledge to be found on those 1,000,000+ planets.

3) There was, most likely, a reason why all the insignificant orders of force users where insignificant: Because they didn't possess any great knowledge / power to rise to a position of influence compareable to that of Jedi and Sith. Which, of course, leads to the suggestion that the quality of knowledge about the force to be left behind by members of those organisations would also be pretty low.

This statement simply doesn't talk about any huge amount of highly valued force knowledge taken by Sidious. It just says that he took whatever he could find on that worlds, without giving any definition. And please. That he "studied the force in all it's guises" still doesn't say anything about quality or quantity of knowledge gained by Sidious. To study Kung Fu in all it's guises, it would be enough to read a book on the different styles. Would that turn me into the most knowledgeable Kung Fu master on the planet? Hardly. For all we know - the already powerful and knowledgeable - Sidious, just stumbled upon some additional force lore that didn't have much influence on his actual level of power [which was increased by solely by additional Jedi/Sith lore he garthered].

So could it be that this statement is just another example of the LFL policy which has been confirmed by Leland Chee and Chris Cherasi saying that they don't want to define power charts for the characters and, likewise, don't deal in absolutes [Like "Sidious is the most knowledgeable, most powerful etc Sith Lord in history"] ? 🙄

Wow it's hilarious how people can pick and choose what's canon and what isn't, because it doesn't agree with their viewpoint, or skewed logic. I guess the trend is "LOLZ AMBIGUOUS!!!"

The fact that Palpatine's knowledge of the force is unparalleled is just that, a fact. You can ***** and moan all day long but it's been proven. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ***** on your feelings diary.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The keyword in this sentence being the "believed". It is "believed" that he mastered every known technique. Who did believe that? Why did they believe it?

That shall be counted as proof? So...that it is believed that God exists counts as proof for God's existance? That's a huge revelation. And an interesting concept. Because if one single person doesn't believe something, than it's also "proven" that the thing the person doesn't believe in hasn't happened or doesn't exist.

I hope, you have understood now, while that sentence can not be counted as proof. Unless somebody wants to proof that some people believed that Sidious mastered all known force techniques. That would work. Anything else? Nope.

The statement is backed up by the fact that Sidious gathered works from over a million worlds, and that he studied the force in all its guises. It's not like that statement was threw out there with nothing to back it up.

Your arguement was that we did not know the quantity or quality of Palpatine's knowledge. It was believed he MASTERED -EVERY- force technique there was, which proves the quality and quantity was very high. Maybe he didn't master every single technique, but there is a reason why it was believed, right?

If this was Ragnos, Kun, Bane, or Revan would there be this much arguements? lol

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wow it's hilarious how people can pick and choose what's canon and what isn't, because it doesn't agree with their viewpoint, or skewed logic. I guess the trend is "LOLZ AMBIGUOUS!!!"

That is the trend. For example, you may note that both Janus and Nai have used several questionable lines from various sources: "Only perhaps Mace Windu was [Dooku's] equal on neutral ground," "Only two Jedi ever bested [Windu]: Yoda and Dooku," "[Marka Ragnos was] the most powerful of the most powerful," "[KotOR-era fighters] are like children compared to the masters of old," and so on and so forth. But when it regards their favorite characters (read: Dooku, Ragnos, or Yoda), the statements are ironclad and completely objective.

Don't bother asking about the difference, though. Nai and Janus's second favorite tactic is evasion. They'll say "red herring!!1!" or "IRRELEVANT!" and move on; or they'll just ignore it.

Meanwhile, they also reference that statement how LFL doesn't invent power charts and... yet... frequent comments, statements, and evidence are shown throughout the movies that confirm Force User X is stronger than Force User Y: Maul > Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan; Dooku > Anakin and Obi-Wan; Yoda > Dooku; Obi-Wan > General Grievous; Sidious > Kit, Saesee, and Agen; Yoda > Obi-Wan; Mace = Sidious (Vaapad); Yoda = Sidious; Obi-Wan = Anakin.

But don't worry... they'll ignore that, too.

The fact that Palpatine's knowledge of the force is unparalleled is just that, a fact. You can ***** and moan all day long but it's been proven. If you don't agree with it, feel free to ***** on your feelings diary.

It really isn't up for debate, agreed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The statement is backed up by the fact that Sidious gathered works from over a million worlds, and that he studied the force in all its guises. It's not like that statement was threw out there with nothing to back it up.

Your arguement was that we did not know the quantity or quality of Palpatine's knowledge. It was believed he MASTERED -EVERY- force technique there was, which proves the quality and quantity was very high. Maybe he didn't master every single technique, but there is a reason why it was believed, right?

Don't bother, Sixty-six. They don't have "an argument." You'll notice they never quite manage to stick to one with any single standard. Hell, Janus can't even read the statement right: "over a million [worlds]" turns into "millions [of worlds]" so he can try to manipulate the quote to fall under hyperbole.

The fact remains that Sidious studied the Force in all its guises, had a far greater reserve of Force knowledge than anyone before him, and mastered it to an extent greater than anyone else.

You'll also notice when I bring up that the three million clone figure is canon, despite not being logical, they evade.

Nai has been on ignore, of course. I just love the fact that Janus "You're Not Worth My Time Escape" Marius leaps back into the fray...

He's so easily baited.

Don't worry Gideon/Escape. I didn't take any offense.

But I brought up Sidious getting shot by Solo on purpose. As expected you made the point that powerful beings have fallen to lesser opponents. That is true as we have seen in the movies.

However if anyone were to speculate that in the right situation Sidious could fall to Dooku, Windu, Yoda or that Windu could fall to Kenobi or Dooku then you would the first one to say they're wrong and accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about.

You can't pick and choose when to employ certain logic and arguments. What's worse is turning around and accusing someone else of doing it. Not to say that you have but you've been rather testy as of late..

You do quote a lot of sources but what relevancy do they have compared to the actual films?

Sidious was indeed the most powerful being in the galaxy. Because he seized it and made himself Emperor. In the movies Sidious was an opportunistic genius. He was a master manipulator and he had a vast knowledge of the force. His knowledge of Sith Lore was unmatched obviously. But he ran from Yoda in RoTS for a reason.

He had fear and disappointment all in one expression when Yoda walked into his office. He thought he had him cornered but then Yoda ragdolled him across the office. Yet again you see a look of fear, surprise, and reality on his face. He knew he wouldn't survive the diminutive Jedi Master. He leapt across the room in order to bail out. Yoda again stood in his way.

That same look on his face in addition to a gasp. The duel was inevitable. Yoda battered his defense and eventually disarmed him leaving the Sith Lord with only one other option. Retreat to the high ground and take advantage of his surroundings. The fact is that he lucked out by the grace of a hand rail or else the duel would have continued and he would've perished on equal ground.

Tell me.

If Sidious was indeed the demigod that he has become since 2005 why then was he afraid of Yoda? If he was so powerful and he knew it why should he be afraid of a mere Jedi?

My proof is the movies. Sidious had the galaxy in his back pocket. Indeed. But because he was a mastermind. If his power within the Force was so potent how was it that he was defeated by Mace Windu, attempted to run from Yoda, got his a$$ handed to him by Yoda, and could not have the foresight or see into the future (as he had supposedly done before) and see his and the Empire's defeat at the hands of a farmboy, a crippled cyborg, the Rebellion and some overgrown mutant furbies?

All the power in the galaxy and he still was defeated.

My point is this. You've made an excellent case for Sidious and his power but stating that it is not open for debate and in essence setting a status quo, is what's killing these forums. No one is able to speculate about the extent of his abilities and power without getting a link to this thread and getting an earful from either you or one of your minions? (The fact that you have minions is impressive by the way..)

I'm just saying lighten up a little bit dude.

Originally posted by RaidenDeadpool
Don't worry Gideon/Escape. I didn't take any offense.

Good. I tend to come off abrasive, but it's not my intent to be outright offensive.

But I brought up Sidious getting shot by Solo on purpose. As expected you made the point that powerful beings have fallen to lesser opponents. That is true as we have seen in the movies.

Correct.

However if anyone were to speculate that in the right situation Sidious could fall to Dooku, Windu, Yoda or that Windu could fall to Kenobi or Dooku then you would the first one to say they're wrong and accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about.

First, this is complete and utter speculation. How do you know that I will say this? I have contended that Palpatine is the most powerful, most accomplished, and most informed Force user in the mythos -- nowhere did I say that he was invincible.

Second, the fact that I cited Palpatine's defeat at Windu's hands would be an eloquent argument in support of the idea that I am very aware that certain characters, under certain circumstances, can defeat him.

Third, I am by no means biased for Mace Windu, nor have I ever made the argument that Kenobi or Dooku couldn't defeat him. Kenobi, however, is a long shot.

You can't pick and choose when to employ certain logic and arguments. What's worse is turning around and accusing someone else of doing it. Not to say that you have but you've been rather testy as of late..

I am many things, but I'm not a hypocrite. I don't employ double standards nor do I evade. That is one of the many things (the other major one being the fact that I'm usually right) that separates me from Janus and Nai.

You do quote a lot of sources but what relevancy do they have compared to the actual films?

Tons.

Sidious was indeed the most powerful being in the galaxy. Because he seized it and made himself Emperor. In the movies Sidious was an opportunistic genius. He was a master manipulator and he had a vast knowledge of the force. His knowledge of Sith Lore was unmatched obviously. But he ran from Yoda in RoTS for a reason.

Indeed?

You said it yourself: Palpatine was an opportunist. So why risk all of your accomplishments -- galactic domination, the destruction of the Jedi, ect. -- on a battle that you may very well lose? The fact that Palpatine went on to fight Yoda on even footing contradicts the idea that the two were disparate in strength.

He had fear and disappointment all in one expression when Yoda walked into his office. He thought he had him cornered but then Yoda ragdolled him across the office. Yet again you see a look of fear, surprise, and reality on his face. He knew he wouldn't survive the diminutive Jedi Master. He leapt across the room in order to bail out. Yoda again stood in his way.

You're attempting to interpret looks to suit your agenda.

The fact is that he did survive the Jedi Master, which is why he went on to rule the galaxy for two decades whereas Yoda spent the remainder of his life in a dilapidated hut on a backwater world spending most of his time trying to avoid Palpatine's detection.

Or did you not watch... the first three movies?

That same look on his face in addition to a gasp. The duel was inevitable. Yoda battered his defense and eventually disarmed him leaving the Sith Lord with only one other option. Retreat to the high ground and take advantage of his surroundings. The fact is that he lucked out by the grace of a hand rail or else the duel would have continued and he would've perished on equal ground.

I also recall Palpatine knocking Yoda unconscious, being in a position to kill him quite easily. And then I recall Palpatine not taking Yoda very seriously during the pod battle in the Rotunda. And then I recall that Sidious disarmed Yoda. And, lastly, I recall Yoda retreating.

Tell me.

If Sidious was indeed the demigod that he has become since 2005 why then was he afraid of Yoda? If he was so powerful and he knew it why should he be afraid of a mere Jedi?

You clearly haven't read the essay, which doesn't contend that Palpatine was "lulz an uber Force demigod!!1!" as of Revenge of the Sith nor does it contend that he is without rivals.

Moreover, you apparently forgot certain selections of the movie. I'll be happy to contribute to your education.

My proof is the movies.

Yeah, I know. The problem is, you're being more than a little... subjective when it comes to interpretation of the movies.

Because the movies also show Sidious knocking Yoda unconscious, regarding him as something of a walking comedy throughout their duel, disarming Yoda, and then watching Yoda haul his little green ass out of the Rotunda in defeat.

Sidious had the galaxy in his back pocket. Indeed. But because he was a mastermind. If his power within the Force was so potent how was it that he was defeated by Mace Windu, attempted to run from Yoda, got his a$$ handed to him by Yoda, and could not have the foresight or see into the future (as he had supposedly done before) and see his and the Empire's defeat at the hands of a farmboy, a crippled cyborg, the Rebellion and some overgrown mutant furbies?

- Windu defeated him in a lightsaber fight due to the intricate nature of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism.

- Sidious didn't "get his a$$ handed to him" by Yoda; they fought on relatively even footing and then Yoda ran away.

Meanwhile, if Yoda was so powerful in the Force, why did he not forsee the Republic's defeat at the hands of Sidious?

Isn't it fascinating how biased questions can be? The answer being obvious: no Force user -- however powerful -- is infallible. Palpatine is no exception nor was he made out to be.

All the power in the galaxy and he still was defeated.

Right. And so with Yoda and (apparently) Luke Skywalker. Your point?

My point is this. You've made an excellent case for Sidious and his power but stating that it is [B]not open for debate and in essence setting a status quo, is what's killing these forums. No one is able to speculate about the extent of his abilities and power without getting a link to this thread and getting an earful from either you or one of your minions? (The fact that you have minions is impressive by the way..)

I'm just saying lighten up a little bit dude. [/B]

People are entitled to question this. And to debate it. But to simply disagree, to say "lul no!1!" ad you have done? No. It's not enough. The fact that people have opinions doesn't necessarily make them valid.

Until such a time that a credible rebuttal is given? I'm not going to bother.

Alright dude your going to believe what you want. As am I. I suggest we agree to disagree. No I didn't read your essay either. I have a job and not really that much time or interest to read 12 pages about something so irrelevant.

You say your not hypocrite. I expect you to hold true to your word when I make a speculation that you don't like. I'll be watching.

Originally posted by RaidenDeadpool
Alright dude your going to believe what you want. As am I. I suggest we agree to disagree. No I didn't read your essay either. I have a job and not really that much time or interest to read 12 pages about something so irrelevant.

You say your not hypocrite. I expect you to hold true to your word when I make a speculation that you don't like. I'll be watching.

That was extraordinarily lame. "You'll be watching"? Please. You can't even argue your case here. I'm not worried.

Originally posted by RaidenDeadpool
Alright dude your going to believe what you want. As am I. I suggest we agree to disagree. No I didn't read your essay either. I have a job and not really that much time or interest to read 12 pages about something so irrelevant.

You say your not hypocrite. I expect you to hold true to your word when I make a speculation that you don't like. I'll be watching.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gideon is sexy.

Indeed.

You read my insinuations like a pro.

😉

Wait...

Originally posted by Gideon
That was extraordinarily lame. "You'll be watching"? Please. You can't even argue your case here. I'm not worried.

You. Calling someone else lame? Indeed with all twelve pages of your essay backing you up. 😄

Of course your not worried. You can get away with whatever you want around here apparently. Setting a status quo and proclaiming that it is not iopen for debate? Right now I'm wondering if the mods haven't noticed this or if they've ignored it.

Congratulations Gideon. You have brought back the famed KMC Gestapo. Crush those who oppose you.

Have fun with your little kingdom aka The EU Section.