Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Thanks Ares! That is what I have been trying to get through to DARTH POWER. I admit I have a hard time putting things in words like I want. Maybe he will understand this since it was well put. Probably not though.*waits for DARTH POWERS superior common sense*
Actually its quite regular common sense. Which is far suprior to yours considering you have none.
Originally posted by ares834
Chris Cerasi, "The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"Here Cerasi seems to be getting at the idea that everything in Star Wars canon, besides the movie, may not be wholly true... I guess what this means is we should throw everything out the window right? After all we don't know what’s true or not, what’s exaggerated, what actually happened. We just can't tell. As such we will simply not use it in any debates and only look to the movies.
What I’m getting at here is yes the Genndy Series is exaggerated but so is most of the EU. I mean DE depicts Palpatine destroying entire fleets, TFU has Vader move at incredible speeds, etc… So if we are going to discard the cartoon why not discard the rest of the EU as well. After all the EU tries to stay “consistent with mine (the GL Universe) as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”
Ah but we can at least make consistency out of Lucas's vision of Star Wars and make everything else come round that.
Thats the whole reason we have Levels of canon. Otherwise there would be no need for G, T, C and NC canon. It would just be Canon or not Canon.
Anything that directly contradicts a higher level of Canon is clearly out. For example, Ki-Adi-mundi was said in comics beofre ROTS to be the first jedi appointed to the council before being given Mastership. After ROTS we now know Anakin was the first, so that fact from C-Canon about Ki-Adi-Mundi is no longer canon.
We thought from C-Canon Ventress and Maul were from different planets, but we now know from T-Canon that they were from the same planet. So T-Canon overrules and that fact from C-Canon is no longer canon.
As for the points you brought up from TFU about Vader.. Vader's been shown to have very impressive TK and even speed in many novels.
The fact that we didnt see him show those things in the Movies doesnt matter because HE NEVER NEEDED TO. He only duelled an old man and a kid. He didnt need to go all out on either of them.
And dnt get me started on Dark Empire! All the Post Jedi C-Canon stuff has never had any involvement form Lucas at all. So its not an inconsistency in any of his G and T-canon sources or the universe he created. Its just inconsistencies among C-canon and C-canon only sources which as far as inconsistencies and contradictions go is no where near as important.
BUT the fact that Palpatine in a much younger body could create a storm doesnt really amount to contradiciton anyway, since the way he fights was still similar to the movies. Im talking about CLEAR contradictions to the Movies, and sources we have been specifically told are Clearly Exaggerrated.
This is not even close to the inconsistencies we have in the cw mini, where mace can take out hundereds of droids by himself, which Filoni has clearly told us was exaggerrated, and we cant show that in T-Canon because its going to be closer to G-Canon. If Mace could do that in the movie then he would have wiped the droids out on Geonsia!
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I can be convinced that some of it was exaggerated as far as the speed and ease in which the feats were performed, but the fact remains that the feats were still done.The battle of Dantooine consisted of a huge siesmic tank which usually holds hundreds of battle droids. Mace was the only one there to take them all on by himself. During the battle Mace lost his saber and had to rely on heavy force usage and his bare hands. Maybe it did take him a lot longer than 5 minutes to wipe them all out. But he did solo the entire army and the seismic tank (alone), and that is canon. Same way with Yoda, he did destroy those landing crafts with the force unless Lucas says other wise.
That's like me saying General Grievous did not solo Mundi, Ti, and them other jedi since he was not able to in the new series, when there is more proof that he did. We can not pick and choose which feats we want as canon.
Is this your best argument?? Seriously this is you bringing something to the table?? Your just making your opionion fact.. Source that those things happen, when the only place we have seen them happen is the Exaggerated cartoon. GG might have taken on those jedis I agree.. They said in the next episiode they were already exhausted.
We know from the new animation Fisto can solo GG, so hes clearly no as uber as we all thought he was in the EXAGGERATED version.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What exactly do you want us to do? March over to Skywalker Ranch and slap Lucas around for allowing the cartoons to be apart of canon?
Oh is this what youve brought to the debate?? Nice. Im still looking for anything constructive youve actually brought here.
Lord Lucien and Aeries have both brought something, and thats why I took on their points. You have brought nothing apart form being an annoying gnat. In fact iv never seen you bring anything to any debate. You just back up people like Gideon and Lord Lucien. They brought the arguments, and you just brought annoyance to their aid.
All youve done is give useless statements like the above, and then you wonder why I ignore your points.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the points you brought up from TFU about Vader.. Vader's been shown to have very impressive TK and even speed in many novels.
The fact that we didnt see him show those things in the Movies doesnt matter because HE NEVER NEEDED TO. He only duelled an old man and a kid. He didnt need to go all out on either of them.
Yeah, a kid who beat him - damn, that would have been a good time to utilize all that speed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Mace could do that in the movie then he would have wiped the droids out on Geonsia!.
And likewise, according to your "logic", Vader would have utilized his immense speed when dueling the "kid" who cut his hand off.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh is this what youve brought to the debate?? Nice. Im still looking for anything constructive youve actually brought here.Lord Lucien and Aeries have both brought something, and thats why I took on their points. You have brought nothing apart form being an annoying gnat. In fact iv never seen you bring anything to any debate. You just back up people like Gideon and Lord Lucien. They brought the arguments, and you just brought annoyance to their aid.
All youve done is give useless statements like the above, and then you wonder why I ignore your points.
What proof was I suppose to bring to the debate? You are the one who made the claim that the feats were exaggerrated, so the burden of proof is on you. But I wouldn't expect you to know that, being the idiot that you are. This was basically the entire arguement:
You: those feats were exaggewated!!! We can't consider dem canon!
Me: Yeah they are, they are c-canon.
You: Uhh no dey are not!! Alot of people say dey are not like Lucas, filoni, and alot uhh otha people say dey not... even da creators!!!
Me: I do not remember Lucas saying that. Do you have a source for any of these claims?
You: Uhh no I can't be bothered with dat!! It's common sense! COMMON SENSE!!!
Lucien: Well they are c-canon. Maybe not the smartest idea but they are.
You: You have no common sense. Dey are exaggewwated!!! Filoni says it!!
Lucien: Yes but we need a quote from someone who is in charge of canon.
You: He is in charge of da teeee-canon cawwtoons!!! He knows what he is talkin bout!!! COMMON SENSE!!!! Dey nevaa do dese in da movies!!! COMMON SENSE!!
Truejedi: Maybe they are inconsistent with the movies but so are other sources. *brings some examples*
Me: Yeah most of the EU is inconsistent with force powers compared to the movies especially TFU. *brings more examples*
You: Nooo da force unleashed can do dat cus it was the sith goin all out. Siths can do dat not jedi. DUUHHHH!!!
Me: There were jedi in TFU who displayed more power that beats anything Yoda has done like Shaak Ti, Paradus, and Kota. We know that these jedi are no where near as powerful as Yoda. Should we dismiss these feats as canon as well? *brings some examples of their feats*
You: *ignores it*
Borborad: We know the feats are exaggerrated because that is what the creator said in the commentary. We can't take those feats seriously if the creator of the story admits that the feats in his story are exaggerated.
Me: He did no say though. He did say that is what the jedi are capable of if they releashed their full power.
Borborad: *rolls eyes* I'll have to rewatch it, I am arguing out of memory just like you. *then brings out a direct quote from filoni regarding something that came from LUCAS himself* (this is what scored big for your side of the debate)
You: I won dis with my common senses!!! Dese forums have none.
Debates are not always about who is right or wrong. Everyone is wrong sometimes. It is about how you make your points and prove your case, which you haven't. I'll easily admit that I am not the best or smartest debator. I'm not even close to it, but I am not a dumb person, not at all. But you... you are just rediculous. The sad part is you actually think you are intelligent and won this debate and you haven't. Ares post shows how easy your points would be ripped apart if it wasn't for the quote Borborad brought to this debate. And it was not the quote regarding Filoni's personal opinion on the cartoons, it was Filoni's quote regarding Lucas' opinion on the cartoons, which is the one that mattered.
In short: You are just pathetic.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah, a kid who beat him - damn, that would have been a good time to utilize all that speed.And likewise, according to your "logic", Vader would have utilized his immense speed when dueling the "kid" who cut his hand off.
Was he any slower than Mace in Mace vs. Palpatine??
Speed isnt always shown exactly as it is on screen battles.
Otherwise Obi-Wan and Anakin fight no facter than Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christenson.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What proof was I suppose to bring to the debate? You are the one who made the claim that the feats were exaggerrated, so the burden of proof is on you. But I wouldn't expect you to know that, being the idiot that you are.
So what are you saying?? If I cant find the quote then it doesnt exist??!! I said the quote existed, because I remembered reading an interview with Filoni somewhere. Borbarad found 2 similar quotes to the one I read.
So what exactly is your problem, except the fact that you were wrong.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Debates are not always about who is right or wrong. Everyone is wrong sometimes.
And yet youve still not admitted you were wrong.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is about how you make your points and prove your case, which you haven't. I'll easily admit that I am not the best or smartest debator.I'm not even close to it
Hey waadu knw we agree on something.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
but I am not a dumb person, not at all.
Thats still up for debate.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But you... you are just rediculous.
Big word, dnt strain yourself.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The sad part is you actually think you are intelligent and won this debate and you haven't.
Well I was right, thats been proven. You see unlike you Sidious, I admit when im wrong as well as right.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ares post shows how easy your points would be ripped apart if it wasn't for the quote Borborad brought to this debate.
You mean the quote I started with but culdnt find the source.
Oh and id hardly say Aeries ripped me apart. I respect Aeries, hes actually got a brain. He made points about other inconsistencies, I replied to him about the different levels of canonnicity, and how the ones in the cw mini was a much bigger contradiciton, and more important.
Sorry your probably getting confused already so ill move on.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And it was not the quote regarding Filoni's personal opinion on the cartoons, it was Filoni's quote regarding Lucas' opinion on the cartoons, which is the one that mattered.
And yet you still never admitted you were wrong and carried on having a go at me. But actually my point was that Filoni gave the exact same common sense logic that I gave right from the get go. Because its common sense its beyond your understanding which is why you started having a go at me just for pointing that out.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In short: You are just pathetic.
Really???? Il do you a HUGE favour and not reply to that one.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Yeah, a kid who beat him - damn, that would have been a good time to utilize all that speed.And likewise, according to your "logic", Vader would have utilized his immense speed when dueling the "kid" who cut his hand off.
Also we see Luke leap incredibly fast in ESB. So if Vader culdnt move that fast then Luke would have beat the snot out of him in ESB.
That proves that that contradiction actually isnt a contradiction and is more just about special effects. That things dnt always happen exactly the way we see them. Otherwise like I said before, Obi-wan, Anakin and Mace dnt sword fight any faster than Ewan, Hayden and Samuel.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You're quite the obnoxious little fellow, aren't you.What are you trying to prove? That Galen Marek would beat Yoda, even though Yoda stalemated Sidious and Sidious overpowered Galen. Just look at who can take Sidious' Force Lightning the best.
Is that pointed at me?? I never said that Galen would win. Although considering he lost to OT Sidious head on and even made Sidious roar in pain before getting killed, im guessing hed give ROTS Yoda hell. But im sure Yoda would come out on top. But perhaps just by the skin of his teeth.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You're quite the obnoxious little fellow, aren't you.What are you trying to prove? That Galen Marek would beat Yoda, even though Yoda stalemated Sidious and Sidious overpowered Galen. Just look at who can take Sidious' Force Lightning the best.
Thats hardly true. Galen fought a Sidious with about 15 years more experience and power than Yoda did, and we know that Sidious grew in power between the 'quels. And Yoda didn't stalemate him anyway, sourcebooks and the novel ([Yoda] just..didn't...have it.) describe him losing, as does the Starwars.com databank. "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him."
And they seemed to take the Force Lightning equally well imo, Galen just decided to suicide rather than face two pissed off Sith.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is that pointed at me?? I never said that Galen would win. Although considering he lost to OT Sidious head on and even made Sidious roar in pain before getting killed, im guessing hed give ROTS Yoda hell. But im sure Yoda would come out on top. But perhaps just by the skin of his teeth.
So what are you arguing about then. It doesn't even matter if Yoda used the Force on those landing crafts, he wins this fight anyway.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats hardly true. Galen fought a Sidious with about 15 years more experience and power than Yoda did, and we know that Sidious grew in power between the 'quels. And Yoda didn't stalemate him anyway, sourcebooks and the novel describe him losing, as does the Starwars.com databank. "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him."And they seemed to take the Force Lightning equally well imo, Galen just decided to suicide rather than face two pissed off Sith.
How much did Sidious grow in power exactly?
Also, don't you think that if Starkiller "no match for the power of Darth Sidious" was able to do the same as Yoda did, he would've done that instead of killing himself?
How much did Sidious grow in power exactly?
We can't know, which is why any comparison between the two incarnations (except to say that OT Sids> PT Sids) is impossible.
Also, don't you think that if Starkiller "no match for the power of Darth Sidious" was able to do the same as Yoda did, he would've done that instead of killing himself?
But we don't know how well Yoda would have done against OT Sidious, so we can't compare. Plus Galen was against the Emperor, Vader and a Death Star full of stormtroopers. Different circumstances. Yoda would have been owned as well.
Originally posted by Slash_KMCWhat DE said. But it was also a sacrifice thing. If he had booked it, the Emperor could very well have stopped the Rebels, or gripped the Rogue Shadow like in the Dark Side ending.
Also, don't you think that if Starkiller "no match for the power of Darth Sidious" was able to do the same as Yoda did, he would've done that instead of killing himself?
Originally posted by Nephthys
We can't know, which is why any comparison between the two incarnations (except to say that OT Sids> PT Sids) is impossible.
Why is it impossible? They're the same character. You're saying that he grew in power, but I'd just like to know why you are assuming this? Yoda grew weaker in those 15 years. We also know that Palpatine's younger self was more powerful.
But we don't know how well Yoda would have done against OT Sidious, so we can't compare. Plus Galen was against the Emperor, Vader and a Death Star full of stormtroopers. Different circumstances. Yoda would have been owned as well.
Again, this is an assumption. Yoda has proven to be able to handle stormtroopers very well and I do not think Vader would be able to take Yoda either.