Originally posted by Obadiah HornLikewise I haven't seen anything in any of firelords showings that can deal with the iceman specified in this thread.
I'd put the celestials well higher than Thanos and slightly belox Galen mostly due to the fact that there have been a few celestials that have high showings and a few that have been damaged by high tier metas (i.e. Exitar being destroyed by sue storm) while galactus even in a severely weakened state was able to pull off solar system busting AOE blasts, large scale transmutations and dimension dumping.I'll wait for this Blair to come around but I'm still not convinced in the slightest that Iceman has anything to counteract the speed any offensive showings that would be effective against firelord,or a level of energy manipulation that is on par with firelord.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Obidiah is insisting that Iceman's powers only work on water vapor and its related periodic elementary particles Oxygen and Hydrogen, rather than being on kinetic movement itself.
Yes, in 616 continuity when was it ever said or shown that his powers extend to all atomic motion and not just to Hydrogen and oxygen?
Also I want clarification on a claim that Bobby stoppe a Nuclear bomb after detonation.
Part 1: Explanation of Iceman's Powers
Fine. Im going to first explain the way I view Iceman's powers, then show scans that support my case. First and foremost, I want to say that I do believe Iceman has a special connection with water. He can control it in all its various physical states. It is not JUST a by-product of his power to control molecular motion. Otherwise, why would his body be composed of water/ice/water vapor depending on the situation? However, his powers also do affect molecular motion, and by extesion thermal control. Its a very fine line, but let me explain.
First, let us look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!." But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.
Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated, although he HAS on occasion, when needed, done just that). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze
But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.
What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.
However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.
So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.
This is NOT to say that he cannot simply control (usually shown as freezing) the moisture, because in several specific cases, he HAS simply frozen the moisture. Its a game of control, because he can control hydrogen/oxygen, but he can do more than JUST that.
Moving on, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.
Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body, and as he has done various times as well) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.
So what did we come to? Bobby has a special connection and affinity for water in all its forms. I will not deny that. However, he can control it through various ways to produce the same results. He can simply control the water, or stop the motion of its molecules.
Part 2: Scans and Feats
Now, you may say, he can only stop the molecular motion of water based things. There are various instances where he does more than just that, and I will highlight a few of them here.
Absolute Zero
In this case Torch's wife is trapped and Iceman is helping save her. Torch is about to melt the trigger, but Iceman stops him after he noticed that theres a sensor that would detonate if the trigger is melted or removed. Iceman decides to freeze the trigger to absolute zero to stop it. He mentions that he needs to freeze it to where all molecular motion stops. Although he did get help from Torch by absorbing the ambient heat, that was only to make the temp drop happen faster. No doubts Iceman could have done it alone. It just probably would have took longer.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1076/mcp7432sa1.jpg
http://img157.imageshack.us/i/mcp7433el4.jpg/
Now, if he had just froze the water surrounding the device, well, the core of the bomb would still be able to detonate, and they would have all gone kabloom. However, due to the assist in that scan, let us look at other examples.
"Not everything on it Bobby, everything it IS!"
Here, per the dialog, Robert is told to not only freeze the whole Celestial ship, but everything it IS. I feel confident in stating that this meant not only the surface area around the the ship (and the insides), but rather, the very molecules that make up the ship. I say this based not only on the dialog, but rather that Bobby literally froze the programming that was infecting Prosh. The signal was frozen. He even went on to unfreeze portions of the ship without allowing the signal to go through to other areas. According to Creshosk:
"[To freeze the signal] you'd have to be freezing electricity or electromagnetic data itself... so either electrons or even smaller than that photons. At which point itd be possible for you to freeze anything in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum, radio waves, light... uv or x-rays, gamma rays."
For context, Prosh has been trying to fight his programming, but is no longer able to do so:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3083/xmenforever5p17.jpg
The feat itself:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4113/xmenforever5p19.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9195/xmenforever5p20.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6632/xmenforever5p21.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1770/xmenforever5p227kd.jpg
The effect on Prosh:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3760/xmenforever6p13.jpg
Stranger
Now, Stranger is a cosmic threat. On the level of power that holds being like the Silver Surfer and above. He has a physical body because he chooses to do so, not because he really needs one. He can control molecules like I control legos.
Even Jean says they are not powerful enough to defeat him:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3340/xmenforever6p02and03.jpg
And yet, for all his power, Iceman still manages to freeze him. And not only him, which should be impressive enough, but his energy beams. They became pure ice. Hydrogen and Oxygen contained as energy? I doubt it. He froze something that was not water based.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9026/xmenforever6p26.jpg
And he stays with the Celestial ships, keeping the Stranger immobilized while the ship shrank into itself and "teleported" to another section of the universe (Iceman made it out by turning into water vapor and reforming right before the ship totally collapsed).
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1088/xmenforever6p29ew7.jpg
(Continued)
Fusion Core Explosion
Here, Bobby is shown freezing a fusion core explosion:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5602/xmen199005tx5.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/1859/xmen199006ou2.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3428/xmen199007.jpg
As you can see, there was an explosion that had already taken place while Mystique was smooching him. He then proceeds to put it on ice. For the layman, a fusion core explosion = a huge nuclear exoplosion. Heck the energy output of a fusion device would be well beyond that of a nuke. Pure surface area ice being applied to the ship would not be enough to cool it down. Without having molecular control how else could he frozen it?
Freezing Psi Energy
This is not very concrete, and I will admit it, but I have two scans that are pretty ambigious.
In the first, Iceman freezes (and you can see the shape of the frozen monster looking thingy) Psi Energy:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/494/xmen199003.jpg
In another, he freezes the Vanisher mid teleport. I dont know how he teleports, but he looks half there, and energy-like. If someone can come up with a good reason, let me know.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8627/17rj1.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1903/18lm4.jpg
Freezing a fire being from the inside out
Iceman faced off against someone who can draw energy from whats around him to fuel his fires. He "fed" on Iceman till there was nothing left apparently absorbing him.
It appears that Iceman was inside the opponents body, laying dormant until the time was right. Iceman must have been in his body for probably up to an hour. Could have been more, but hard to tell the full length of time that passed. Note: It appears Iceman killed him.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8462/icemandormantiq9.png
Chemical Reactions
Furthering my case by talking about specifics, let us dive into Bobby progressing in terms of temperature control. This has nothing to do with Hydrogen or Oxygen as he is now able to control chemical reactions that involve heat change. This is how he is able to block Sunfires, and by extension Cannonballs, powers:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2568/xmen2020011ef3.jpg
Part Three: What can be done?
I honestly believe Firelord does not have the versatility it takes to take down Bobby. He has proven time again that you cannot simply blast him away, evaporate him, shoot him, explode him, or any other scenario you may come up with that involves a physical body. He simply reforms himself with no damage whatsoever, save if he is blown up as a human first. From Sentinels blasting him, and then not being able to detect him – to which he then comes and destroys them in mist form – or he himself turning into mist, or water (both of which he has done various times in his career), he is essentially a physic being that undetectably stores its consciousness in water molecules.
I have never seen Firelord do much more than show impressive blasting/heat powers so I may be wrong, but the point is, that once Firelord destroys his body once, what then? Iceman is simply in the air, strong as ever. He only destroyed his ice “body shell.” Iceman can attack from this position, and try as Firelord might, he will not be able to target the specific “aspect” that houses the astral mind of Bobby Drake. It is not a physical thing. He cannot grasp it in his hands, destroy it with his power, or do any combination of the two. And from the feats we have, he is undetectable in that form.
Now, nowhere in this have I said that Iceman can freeze Firelord. Let me go on to say that Firelord can survive in space, which is on average 3 degrees above absolute zero. If you believe that Bobby can, with time, slow down Firelords molecules to absolute zero, then obviously he will win as Firelord no longer has movement. If you decide that he cannot do so, then it is at best a stalemate, as Firelord will never truly win against Bobby Drake, the non corporeal Iceman.
I hope that answers your questions, Obediah, and puts my vote down on what I believe will happen.
*I did use various quotes I have saved in files, and cannot credit the original writers as I forgot who they were. However, most of it is re-written by me anyways. Just wanted to put that out there*
Originally posted by Hitman911Why would space suddenly be able to kill a psionic entity?
If they fight in space, Bobby dies. peroid.
We've already proven that Bobby doesn't need a shell. You think an ice shell can freeze to death? You think that a being made of pure ice needs to breath?
Did you even read Blair's posts?
Originally posted by Hitman911And he wouldn't be able to move his mind without the shell why?
no air to vibrate= no sound
no atomosphere to manipulate= If Iceman(body) is desroyed in space then he would drift apart forever.
Im not sure if Bobby could survive being thrown into the sun....
You think he travels by ... sound? 🤨
