Originally posted by Lestov16
Multiverse is another term for omniverse in both Marvel and DC. In the scans from both Marvel and DC posted above, the term "multiverse" is used in place of omniverse. Why are you bytching about this?
Please don't tell me that you are one of those idiots who thinks that just because there is a theoretical real-life omniverse, that when Marvel or DC say "omniverse" (Handbook aside) they are not just referring to their own multiverse. "Omniverse" and "Multiverse" are interchangeable in Marvel and DC comics. Obviously there is a difference in real life but these are comics so when they use terminology wrongly, you just go with it. This is obviously proven by the scans I just posted, where the term "multiverse" is used to define the totality of existence, whereas in other comics, the term omniverse is used. It's interchangeable. Stop throwing the thread off topic. And being stupid.
Anyways, Beyonder seems more powerful, but a stalemate is possible.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Please don't tell me that you are one of those idiots who thinks that just because there is a theoretical real-life omniverse, that when Marvel or DC say "omniverse" (Handbook aside) they are not just referring to their own multiverse. "Omniverse" and "Multiverse" are interchangeable in Marvel and DC comics. Obviously there is a difference in real life but these are comics so when they use terminology wrongly, you just go with it. This is obviously proven by the scans I just posted, where the term "multiverse" is used to define the totality of existence, whereas in other comics, the term omniverse is used. It's interchangeable. Stop throwing the thread off topic. And being stupid.Anyways, Beyonder seems more powerful, but a stalemate is possible.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Please don't tell me that you are one of those idiots who thinks that just because there is a theoretical real-life omniverse, that when Marvel or DC say "omniverse" (Handbook aside) they are not just referring to their own multiverse. "Omniverse" and "Multiverse" are interchangeable in Marvel and DC comics. Obviously there is a difference in real life but these are comics so when they use terminology wrongly, you just go with it. This is obviously proven by the scans I just posted, where the term "multiverse" is used to define the totality of existence, whereas in other comics, the term omniverse is used. It's interchangeable. Stop throwing the thread off topic. And being stupid.Anyways, Beyonder seems more powerful, but a stalemate is possible.
ill put the handbooks aside, here's Quasar #31 saying that the omniverse is a continuum of multiverses:
http://i.imgur.com/NjcXoyY.jpg
Multiverses (as in plural) have been referenced in many titles (let me know if you want scans), though you brought up (unintentionally) an interesting point.....it's true, there are sometimes when the terms omniverse and multiverse are used as if they are the same thing.......but the only titles you could argue that use the terms omniverse and multiverse interchangeably are the UK titles (like the Excalibur/Captain Britain books) and Exiles, even then, while they use the terms interchangeably sometimes, here's a Marvel UK title named Cyberspace 3000 (issue 8) referencing that there are multiple multiverseS in existence:
http://i.imgur.com/iS1bMJm.jpg?1
seeing as how there's only 1 omniverse, all the multiverses are contained within it, meaning omniverse > multiverse.
Here's also New Exiles letter's page (not a handbook) referencing that there are infinite multiverses within the omniverse:
http://i.imgur.com/yARZYy7.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/hzXtbIR.jpg?1
......despite the fact that Exiles, for the most part, depicts the omniverse as the equivalent of the multiverse and uses them interchangeably.
So even then, it's arguable and you can't say, in full confidence, that those titles use the terms interchangeably. As for the other titles, it's established that omniverse > multiverse.
--
As for your Beyonder argument, Beyonder was just another multiverse (pre retcon), here's Mephisto vs X Men stating it (it's a year after Secret Wars 2, but it's still pre retcon)
http://i.imgur.com/NFdCQsq.jpg?1
And stated in a Marvel Age issue (1985), in an interview between Shooter and Zimmerman:
http://i.imgur.com/ig83atb.jpg?1
To be fair though, Beyonder was a multiverse which dwarfed the mainstream multiverse, so there's that. But point still stands that Beyonder is a subsection of MU, not the other way around.
So, here's Beyonder meeting Circuit Breaker in Secret Wars 2 #3:
http://i.imgur.com/8wuvbIA.jpg?2
Fact is, Circuit Breaker is a character from the Transformers multiverse. Which is a separate and has a creation story of its own, 1 example from Transformers (US) #74:
http://i.imgur.com/CM4WqgM.jpg
Transformers Ultimate Guide handbook: The Big Bang:
http://i.imgur.com/lGyoB7u.jpg?2
I could post many more confirmations (handbook included).
....this is why Marvel decided to include the Transformers multiverse within the megaverse but outside the mainstream multiverse:
On the other hand, due to the fact that the hierarchy of cosmic characters of both Transformers universes [Unicron, Primus] does not mesh with the usual Marvel assortment of cosmic beings [Eternity, Death, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Master Order, etc.] one could place them in the Marvel Megaverse along with such tertiary realms as Earth-Shadowline.
Link: http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm (official bio)
2007 handbook: Megaverse definition:
http://i.imgur.com/4GMWE1e.jpg?1
I have several other definitions for it, but that should give you the general idea (that the megaverse encompasses the mainstream multiverse and other realities outside of it, like Transformers)
Originally posted by operator616
^ you do understand that even at the time there were other multiverses, correct? like the transfomers one, Beyonder even met a character from that other continuity.So how is that claim accurate again?
So when Beyonder says "multiverse", is he actually referring to the megaverse, because she seemed just as under his thrall as everyone in the Marvel multiverse was.
Originally posted by Lestov16So when Beyonder says "multiverse", is he actually referring to the megaverse, because she seemed just as under his thrall as everyone in the Marvel multiverse was.
All of Marvel, All! (aside from Beyonder's home) = a drop of water
The Beyond Realm (which Beyonder encompasses) = an Ocean
That's the perfect analogy to notice the size difference, and it's Shooter's analogy. (paraphrased)
Originally posted by operator616
the Transformers multiverse.....this is why Marvel decided to include the Transformers multiverse
Never heard of that before and I gots the collection. Was this announced in a later issue,
not from the original series including the Primus story? (good read btw)
Originally posted by operator616
....this is why Marvel decided to include the Transformers multiverse within the megaverse but outside the mainstream multiverse:Link: http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm (official bio)
"the Transformers-UK universe is considered possibly part of the Marvel Multiverse. On the other hand, due to the fact that the hierarchy of cosmic characters of both Transformers universes [Unicron, Primus] does not mesh with the usual Marvel assortment of cosmic beings [Eternity, Death, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Master Order, etc.] one could place them in the Marvel Megaverse along with such tertiary realms as Earth-Shadowline."
This isn't official.
I love this site you know it but they're off on a few details here and there.
They're obviously theorizing by pasting logic together
and they aren't stating things in a definitive tone.
Also, they're stuck on the there being only one Omniverse, and that's just not true.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Let's not argue semantics. Can we agree that, at least in the context of the scans posted above, that when Beyonder and CA Supes say "multiverse", they are referring the the totality of Marvel and DC, respectively?Also, are you saying PM wins?
I am saying that this thread should be closed.
Originally posted by Lestov16
So when Beyonder says "multiverse", is he actually referring to the megaverse, because she seemed just as under his thrall as everyone in the Marvel multiverse was.
Pretty sure you missed the point. This has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand, because what we're discussing is what realities were there, beside the Beyonder's (and the mainstream multiverse).
Originally posted by Mr Master
You have an on panel confirmation that states/depicts the Transformers Universe as a multiverse?Never heard of that before and I gots the collection. Was this announced in a later issue,
not from the original series including the Primus story? (good read btw)
Yes, i do.
Transformers UK #87 references parallel dimensions (time-travel may end up in a parallel dimension, just like in mainstream)
http://i.imgur.com/auPPBCI.jpg?1
Same thing next issue:
http://i.imgur.com/h7AAZjr.jpg?1
I can reference more issues which depict alternate timelines/realities, so let me know in case you need them.
---------
In the Transformers Ultimate Guide, The Unicron/Primus bios (pertaining Marvel Continuity) reference countless parallel realities:
http://i.imgur.com/RbeRdM8.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/9q3dOEc.jpg?1
Note: This can only be found in this guide and not on panel. On panel it was never shown (Im pretty sure about that)
....There's also the omniversal matrix, (Transformers US #61):
http://i.imgur.com/2u1Pf9K.jpg?1
I do realize that the UK issues offer some reprints to this.
This should be enough, no?
Originally posted by Mr MasterThere's also this though:
"the Transformers-UK universe is [b]considered possibly part of the Marvel Multiverse
. On the other hand, due to the fact that the hierarchy of cosmic characters of both Transformers universes [Unicron, Primus] does not mesh with the usual Marvel assortment of cosmic beings [Eternity, Death, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Master Order, etc.] one could place them in the Marvel Megaverse along with such tertiary realms as Earth-Shadowline."This isn't official.
I love this site you know it but they're off on a few details here and there.
They're obviously theorizing by pasting logic together
and they aren't stating things in a definitive tone.Also, they're stuck on the there being only one Omniverse, and that's just not true. [/B]
Okay, which one do you think makes more sense? Im pretty sure you know the answer yourself, because:
1. Transformers is a multiverse in its own right.
2. It has a different cosmic hierarchy (and that's what even the Marvunapp page says), as opposed to the hierarchy in the mainstream multiverse, it's been mentioned several times that realities (in this case a multiverse) that lack the cosmic hierarchy are outside the mainstream multiverse:
2006 Handbook (LT's bio):
realms lacking the hierarchy of power are outside of the multiverse :
http://i.imgur.com/kW3ijee.jpg?1
2005 handbooks:
outside of the multiverse ......... these realms lack the cosmic being hierarchy of the mainstream multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/cldF2nP.jpg?1
Same handbook:
Earth shadowline lacks the universal structure and hierarchy of Earth-616 or similar words, and thus it would be considered outside the mainstream multiverse :
Originally posted by operator616
ill put the handbooks aside, here's Quasar #31 saying that the omniverse is a continuum of multiverses:http://i.imgur.com/NjcXoyY.jpg
Multiverses (as in plural) have been referenced in many titles (let me know if you want scans), though you brought up (unintentionally) an interesting point.....it's true, there are sometimes when the terms omniverse and multiverse are used as if they are the same thing.......but the only titles you could argue that use the terms omniverse and multiverse interchangeably are the UK titles (like the Excalibur/Captain Britain books) and Exiles, even then, while they use the terms interchangeably sometimes, here's a Marvel UK title named Cyberspace 3000 (issue 8) referencing that there are multiple multiverseS in existence:
http://i.imgur.com/iS1bMJm.jpg?1
seeing as how there's only 1 omniverse, all the multiverses are contained within it, meaning omniverse > multiverse.
Here's also New Exiles letter's page (not a handbook) referencing that there are infinite multiverses within the omniverse:
http://i.imgur.com/yARZYy7.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/hzXtbIR.jpg?1......despite the fact that Exiles, for the most part, depicts the omniverse as the equivalent of the multiverse and uses them interchangeably.
So even then, it's arguable and you can't say, in full confidence, that those titles use the terms interchangeably. As for the other titles, it's established that omniverse > multiverse.
--As for your Beyonder argument, Beyonder was just another multiverse (pre retcon), here's Mephisto vs X Men stating it (it's a year after Secret Wars 2, but it's still pre retcon)
http://i.imgur.com/NFdCQsq.jpg?1
And stated in a Marvel Age issue (1985), in an interview between Shooter and Zimmerman:
http://i.imgur.com/ig83atb.jpg?1
To be fair though, Beyonder was a multiverse which dwarfed the mainstream multiverse, so there's that. But point still stands that Beyonder is a subsection of MU, not the other way around.
Beyonder was the sum of everything outside of the main Marvel multiverse. There's only the main Marvel multiverse and him. No one else. That means that if Marvel is a megaverse, with TF being a separate multiverse, all of those separate multiverses would be a sub-section of the Beyonder. This is supported by Circuit Breaker wanting to suck Beyonder's dick like everyone else from the Marvel multiverse. So if anything, all of Marvel's Megaverse (and arguably even the main Marvel multiverse, if Beyonder's "is this all a dream?" monologue was true) is all a subsection of Beyonder. He is EVERYTHING outside of the Marvel multiverse. Says it right on panel. Do you have anything where he refutes that statement?
^ Thanks, but i didn't have to see that scan for the billionth time.
I do and it's pretty simple: you seem to be ignorant about the fact that Beyonder's realm is actually called Beyond.
In any case, you ignored all the proof i posted. When you have evidence that disputes what i posted, let me know, and then we'll continue the debate.
Hmm. Does that mean Marvel Co. is a Megaverse or Omniverse? If Beyonder is a sentient multiverse, where would you rank him next to Primal Monitor?
IMO, Shooter wrote Beyonder as a sentient work of fiction which would enter and rewrite other works of fiction like it could rewrite itself.
Morrison wrote the Primal Monitor as the artistic canvas, a sentient version of the paper on which DC comics is printed on.
That essentially makes this match The writer vs The paper he writes on.
Do I have a grasp of what was trying to be conveyed by the authors, or do I have it all topsy turvy?
And would that make PM and Beyonder omniversal?
Originally posted by Epicurus
That's an assumption on your part. It has been confirmed that the omniverse is larger than a multiverse multiple times in comics. The term omniverse also originated in comics. And yeah, great going using 30 year old scans to prove anything which has remotely anything to do with...anything. Hell, not just omniverse, writers often even use other terms like metaverse and megaverse to indicate trans-multiversal realities. Heck, from the very same era that you posted those oversized scans from, [b]Post-Retcon versions of Molecule Man and the Beyonder fought a battle on a transmultiversal scale. Clearly, they encompass the totality of DC going by your Forrest Gump style logic. [/B]
It appears I was mistaken. My apologies. But would you consider Beyonder, the sentient story, to be more or less powerful than the PM, the sentient canvas the story is told on.
