Originally posted by Lestov16
It appears I was mistaken. My apologies. But would you consider Beyonder, the sentient story, to be more or less powerful than the PM, the sentient canvas the story is told on.
The Living Tribunal said it best:
Originally posted by Lestov16
Hmm. Does that mean Marvel Co. is a Megaverse or Omniverse?
It depends on which source you're going with. Here's 3 different definitions for the megaverse:
2007 handbook definition says that the megaverse includes the mainstream multiverse and all marvel realities (which would make it the equivalent of the Marvel Omniverse):
http://i.imgur.com/4GMWE1e.jpg?1
Here's a 2006 handbook stating that the megaverse encompasses more than a single multiverse but it's still within the marvel omniverse:
http://i.imgur.com/RhlwtgO.jpg?1
2011 handbook, says that the megaverse encompasses multiverses from different companies, which how crossovers occur (meaning going by this definition, megaverse extends to other companies inlcuding marvel):
http://i.imgur.com/lsiDLq7.jpg?1
3 contradictory definitions, 1 suggesting that the megaverse encompasses all marvel, 2nd suggesting that it encompasses only a number of multiverses and that there are multiple megaverses inside the marvel omniverse, and the last one suggests that the megaverse encompasses marvel and all companies.
Same thing goes to the omniverse, 1st we have (mostly Captain Britain/Exiles related books) say that the omniverse is made of dimensions (universes) - this is stating many times throughout Exiles comics, here's one from Exiles #100:
http://i.imgur.com/jecXc8m.jpg
....While Quasar on the other hand (which i posted earlier), says that the omniverse is made of multiverseS (this has been stated more than once):
http://i.imgur.com/4wZWZAA.jpg?1
And then back to LT's bio, the omniverse contains megaverseS:
http://i.imgur.com/7JkPkTk.jpg?1
And in the 2005 OHOTMU it says that the omniverse includes marvel has wel as every other fictional world including our "real world" (which is interesting, considering that Gruenwald was the one who wrote that Quasar issue in the 1st place)
http://i.imgur.com/NRTZ3N1.jpg?1
Back in the late 70s, an editor explains the meaning of the omniverse in Thor #286 letter's page: omniverse means treatment of comicbook events as if they were real
http://i.imgur.com/AGtUjPZ.jpg?1
That was in the 70s when Gruenwald introduced the omniverse in his omniverse fansize.
So what do we have here? 1st suggesting the omniverse is made up of universes, 2nd suggesting that the omniverse is made of multiverses, 3rd suggesting that the omniverse is made of megaverses, 4th suggesting that the omniverse is made up of everything including our world. And the 5th, doesn't have to do with anything.
So like i explained earlier: It depends on which definition you choose to go by.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Beyonder is a sentient multiverse, where would you rank him next to Primal Monitor?IMO, Shooter wrote Beyonder as a sentient work of fiction which would enter and rewrite other works of fiction like it could rewrite itself.
Morrison wrote the Primal Monitor as the artistic canvas, a sentient version of the paper on which DC comics is printed on.
That essentially makes this match The writer vs The paper he writes on.
Do I have a grasp of what was trying to be conveyed by the authors, or do I have it all topsy turvy?
And would that make PM and Beyonder omniversal?
I stand by my original statement. They're equals, imo.
I wouldn't say that.
That is correct, Morrison even stated so in an interview.
Beyonder isn't the equivalent of the writer.
Originally posted by operator616
Transformers UK #87 references parallel dimensions (time-travel may end up in a parallel dimension, just like in mainstream)
http://i.imgur.com/auPPBCI.jpg?1
Same thing next issue:
http://i.imgur.com/h7AAZjr.jpg?1I can reference more issues which depict alternate timelines/realities, so let me know in case you need them.
They could just be describing what happens in the prime Multiverse when you
travel across Time into Other eras, which is, you end up in a different Universe/Parallel dimension:
[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17241869_Para.jpg]
Originally posted by operator616
In the Transformers Ultimate Guide, The Unicron/Primus bios (pertaining Marvel Continuity) reference countless parallel realities:http://i.imgur.com/RbeRdM8.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/9q3dOEc.jpg?1Note: This can only be found in this guide and not on panel. On panel it was never shown (Im pretty sure about that)
Originally posted by operator616
....There's also the omniversal matrix, (Transformers US #61):
Originally posted by operator616
Okay, which one do you think makes more sense? Im pretty sure you know the answer yourself, because:1. Transformers is a multiverse in its own right.
2. It has a different cosmic hierarchy (and that's what even the Marvunapp page says), as opposed to the hierarchy in the mainstream multiverse, it's been mentioned several times that realities (in this case a multiverse) that lack the cosmic hierarchy are outside the mainstream multiverse:
Fact is, there are several entire Universes outside of the prime Multiverse which aren't multiverses themselves.
If you have an on panel example differentiating Two separate MultiverseS, I'll agree.
Originally posted by Lestov16Does that mean Marvel Co. is a Megaverse or Omniverse?
In Marvel, that means it's made of countless MultiverseS.
But MultiverseS are made up of countless UniverseS.
And a Megaverse is a collection of MultiverseS. (unknown # as to how many)
That's it.
It isn't too confusing because since in the end it's all just countless/countless UniverseS,
you can just as easily label the Omniverse as endless UniverseS.
And this doesn't take away from these endless universes being grouped into multiverses,
and bigger groups called megaverses.
That's all it is. A single trans-infinite reality (Marvel) broken up into segments.
Originally posted by operator616I stand by my original statement. They're equals, imo.
I wouldn't say that.
That is correct, Morrison even stated so in an interview.
Beyonder isn't the equivalent of the writer.
IMO, Beyonder is the sentient "pen", in the same way that PM is the sentient "paper". He may not be "the writer" like say, Morrison's avatar, but IMO Beyonder is a sentient story which can rewrite itself and any other story it encounters.
Mr. Master, what are your thoughts on this, and who do you think is more powerful?
Originally posted by Lestov16IMO, Beyonder is the sentient "pen", in the same way that PM is the sentient "paper". He may not be "the writer" like say, Morrison's avatar, but IMO Beyonder is a sentient story which can rewrite itself and any other story it encounters.
Originally posted by Lestov16Mr. Master, what are your thoughts on this, and who do you think is more powerful?
It's obvious the writer's intent in the PM,
is akin to Shooter's intent concerning Beyonder.
(not saying Grant used Beyonder as a reference to create PM)
But anyway ... stalemate.
Originally posted by Lestov16
What was Shooter's intent in creating the Beyonder? PM was supposed to be a representation of the paper DC Comics is printed on. Is that what Beyonder is as well, a representation of the paper, or something more (or less)?
It may not mean much but just sayin.
As for the PM, that "paper" representation is nonsense imo.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to that as it leads to 4th wall garbage.
Let's just see it as a ridiculously powerful BIG entity. Like what Beyonder was.
So BIG, that the DC Multiverse seemed like a germ to a man,
just like the Marvel Multiverse seemed like a drop of water next to an ocean compared to Beyonder.
Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel, Marvel is an Omniverse.In Marvel, that means it's made of countless MultiverseS.
But MultiverseS are made up of countless UniverseS.
And a Megaverse is a collection of MultiverseS. (unknown # as to how many)
That's it.
It isn't too confusing because since in the end it's all just countless/countless UniverseS,
you can just as easily label the Omniverse as endless UniverseS.
And this doesn't take away from these endless universes being grouped into multiverses,
and bigger groups called megaverses.That's all it is. A single trans-infinite reality (Marvel) broken up into segments.
Id generally agree with this, that's the definition of the terms which i personally go by. Since they seem to fit together with each other.
Though like i explained earlier, the terms differ in some cases, like the handbook which suggests that the megaverse encompasses all marvel realities, while the omniverse encompasses marvel and everything else. Going by this definition, wouldn't you say that the megaverse is the equivalent of the Marvel (key word) omniverse? or when you have "megaversal crossover" which means (according to that definition) that it's a crossover from 2 different companies, that's already going beyond Marvel, now isn't (btw, that's 2011, so it's pretty recent)? And the list goes on, all of which i already posted.
Regarding the Transformers part of the debate: I got tired of your excuses (coz that's honestly what it seems to me) to continually dismiss the evidence i post, in this, and the other thread(s).
Originally posted by Lestov16
IMO, Beyonder is the sentient "pen", in the same way that PM is the sentient "paper". He may not be "the writer" like say, Morrison's avatar, but IMO Beyonder is a sentient story which can rewrite itself and any other story it encounters.
I never got that impression, tbh. There is no proof that Beyonder is the "sentient pen", because that's basically TOAA's job.
Primal Monitor, on the other hand, has an interview that confirms he's the white page on which comics are drawn/written.
Originally posted by operator616Id generally agree with this, that's the definition of the terms which i personally go by. Since they seem to fit together with each other.
Originally posted by operator616Though like i explained earlier, the terms differ in some cases, like the handbook which suggests that the megaverse encompasses all marvel realities, while the omniverse encompasses marvel and everything else. Going by this definition, wouldn't you say that the megaverse is the equivalent of the Marvel (key word) omniverse? or when you have "megaversal crossover" which means (according to that definition) that it's a crossover from 2 different companies, that's already going beyond Marvel, now isn't (btw, that's 2011, so it's pretty recent)? And the list goes on, all of which i already posted.
The Omniverse has been depicted, remade, destroyed, re-created
all on panel.
If Marvel doesn't have a personal Omniverse then this means
Marvel cats have taken out all of DC, Anime, and the real World etc.
which is nonsense. So Marvel has it's own Omniverse.
I've only heard/seen of Two Megaverses On Panel,
originally they actually represented all of Marvel and DC, (back in 97)
then this was changed to being just two Megaverses belonging to Marvel.
(so at one point Your Handbook points were supported on panel)
But this as you well know, changed.
Handbooks also have TOAA creating the Omniverse as you know.
Originally posted by operator616Regarding the Transformers part of the debate: I got tired of your excuses (coz that's honestly what it seems to me) to continually dismiss the evidence i post, in this, and the other thread(s).
Originally posted by Mr MasterI've only heard/seen of Two Megaverses On Panel,
originally they actually represented all of Marvel and DC, (back in 97)
then this was changed to being just two Megaverses belonging to Marvel.
(so at one point Your Handbook points were supported on panel)
But this as you well know, changed.
Yeah, the DC/Marvel crossover which was retconned in Adventures of X-Men. But since the definition of a megaverse offered in LT's bio (regarding that particular scene) says "megaverse .... encompassing more than one multiverse" (which is different from what previous bio says) it could be assumed that there are more megaverses inside marvel.
Originally posted by operator616Yeah, the DC/Marvel crossover which was retconned in Adventures of X-Men. But since the definition of a megaverse offered in LT's bio (regarding that particular scene) says "megaverse .... encompassing more than one multiverse" (which is different from what previous bio says) it could be assumed that there are more megaverses inside marvel.
This entire crap was overlooked/forgotten immediately afterwards of course.
I don't know when exactly, but by the time TLT's 06' bio came out,
we knew the updated facts which were, the Brothers were two Megarverses from Marvel.
Are there more than two Megaverses in Marvel? I don't see why not,
I just haven't seen or heard of more than those presented.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I was referring to 'Adv. of the X-Men.' (97)
It was in that story (initially at-least) where Marvel/DC were the Two Brothers in TLT's hand.
This story was a kinda follow up on the DC vs Marvel garbage concerning the Brothers.
This is why TLT had to consult with his "hooded spectral ally" (obviously the Specter)
(this also de-powers the Bros from their inceptive appearance)This entire crap was overlooked/forgotten immediately afterwards of course.
I don't know when exactly, but by the time TLT's 06' bio came out,
we knew the updated facts which were, the Brothers were two Megarverses from Marvel.Are there more than two Megaverses in Marvel? I don't see why not,
I just haven't seen or heard of more than those presented.
............that's what i was referring to as well, adventures of x-men, issue 12, though to be more specific, the brothers were said to be guardians of megaverses (in the bios, that is) not embodiment as they were originally shown to be.
Yeah, though interestingly enough, LT and the Spectre managed to affect the brothers even in the crossover itself.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I was referring to 'Adv. of the X-Men.' (97)
It was in that story (initially at-least) where Marvel/DC were the Two Brothers in TLT's hand.
This story was a kinda follow up on the DC vs Marvel garbage concerning the Brothers.
This is why TLT had to consult with his "hooded spectral ally" (obviously the Specter)
(this also de-powers the Bros from their inceptive appearance)This entire crap was overlooked/forgotten immediately afterwards of course.
I don't know when exactly, but by the time TLT's 06' bio came out,
we knew the updated facts which were, the Brothers were two Megarverses from Marvel.Are there more than two Megaverses in Marvel? I don't see why not,
I just haven't seen or heard of more than those presented.
No offense but I disagree. Marvel lacks the authority to recton the brothers or make DC an Megaverse, without DC's agreement. DC also stated that it is an Omniverse on several occasions. That's the reason why the Brothers in LT's hand look a little different and why he never named a single DC character. So as much as they wish this mean it is not canon for DC and DC is not a Part of Marvel. The Brothers are neither more powerful then LT nor Spectre as DC vs Marvel is not canon to both companies.
Originally posted by operator616............that's what i was referring to as well, adventures of x-men, issue 12, though to be more specific, the brothers were said to be guardians of megaverses (in the bios, that is) not embodiment as they were originally shown to be.
... a definition for Architect: "designs and makes"
... you already know what Alpha/Omega means. (beginning/end)
Originally posted by operator616Yeah, though interestingly enough, LT and the Spectre managed to affect the brothers even in the crossover itself.
They actually nearly inadvertently obliterated both Brothers via merging them, lol
luckily Access helped in the separation.
^ Ok. Though does architect = embodiment?
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
No offense but I disagree. Marvel lacks the authority to recton the brothers or make DC an Megaverse, without DC's agreement. DC also stated that it is an Omniverse on several occasions. That's the reason why the Brothers in LT's hand look a little different and why he never named a single DC character. So as much as they wish this mean it is not canon for DC and DC is not a Part of Marvel. The Brothers are neither more powerful then LT nor Spectre as DC vs Marvel is not canon to both companies.
It's canon but it got retconned into being a minor crisis, orchestrated by the LT and the Spectre. For Marvel, Adventures of X-Men (which in itself is non-canon, but the bio references it making it canon), confirms it.
As for DC, here's a Green Lantern issue from 1997 (3 months after Adventures of X men #12 came out, in the same year), showing the Access character (from the crossover) on panel:
http://i.imgur.com/Zoqr6Dg.jpg
The fact that Access (a character created solely for the crossover, though he appeared in other out of continuity books, which doesn't diminish my point in any way) appeared in a canon DC issue makes it canon. So they made the thing canon for both companies, around the same time, but retconned it into a minor crisis.
@Mr Master: Also, in case you were unaware, while in the issue itself, it was the universe which is destroyed, the handbooks confirm that the muliverse and beyond were destroyed, and there's a marvunapp page which says and i quote " the multiverse (if not the entire omniverse)" was destroyed.
this is largely due to the fact that the M'kraan Crystal was universal at the time, later changed to multiversal and beyond, hence the 2006 bio and the marvunapp page.
Originally posted by operator616
^ Ok. Though does architect = embodiment?It's canon but it got retconned into being a minor crisis, orchestrated by the LT and the Spectre. For Marvel, Adventures of X-Men (which in itself is non-canon, but the bio references it making it canon), confirms it.
As for DC, here's a Green Lantern issue from 1997 (3 months after Adventures of X men #12 came out, in the same year), showing the Access character (from the crossover) on panel:
http://i.imgur.com/Zoqr6Dg.jpg
The fact that Access (a character created solely for the crossover, though he appeared in other out of continuity books, which doesn't diminish my point in any way) appeared in a canon DC issue makes it canon. So they made the thing canon for both companies, around the same time, but retconned it into a minor crisis.
You miss the point. LT being superior to the Brothers and DC and Marvel being ominverses is not canon. Marvel can't decide this hierarchy by their own, that's why they never name a single DC char and even change the appearance of the Brothers slightly. They have not power to do this. The events are not Canon to DC, even if Access appeares, for all means and purposes it means.
DC has an Access character whi isn't the same as in DC vs Marvel, when they publish them in an non DC/Marvel book.
Marvel has 2 Megaverses and Brothers but they are not the same from Marvel vs DC but simply lesser versions.
Originally posted by operator616Though does architect = embodiment?
Well, that ... and this:
The Marvel Brothers Look exactly like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)
The Marvel Brothers are locked in an eternal struggle just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)
They have the same Name: ... The Brothers!
The Marvel Brothers battle with swords, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)
The Marvel Brothers are blue and red, just like the original Brothers (Marvel & DC)
The Marvel Brothers are guardians of the realities they architected, just like the original Brothers. (Marvel & DC)
-------------------
Coincidence? hm Not imo, but perhaps.
The originals were embodiments, and everything else is a perfect copy:
(Marvel vs DC)
(Adventures of the X-Men)
You feel me opr?
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