PR Beyonder VS Primal Monitor

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????

...You've never read any Mxy...? A DC character.

Except Mxy is real 😱

Originally posted by Enyalus
Amongst other places, JK4W #1 and Holy War #5, IIRC.

...You've never read any Mxy...? A DC character.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Except Mxy is real 😱

Yes, I realize the pun there.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Assuming that I'm interpreting what you said correctly (which I may very well not be)

This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've sodomized Bat-mite before. Never come across Mxy, though.

Yes, I realize the pun there.

Originally posted by iceman24567
You and your Puns Phantom face would be proud if he wasn't banned he would give you a bj 😱

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've already forced him to give me one in the past. Don't see why now would be anything special.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Assuming that I'm interpreting what you said correctly (which I may very well not be)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????

In Marvel, the writer/artist is TOAA (the One Above All)
which is basically the true Supreme Being/God
creator of everything that takes place in the Marvel Universe (Omniverse)
This character is represented On Panel by an obvious fictional illustration,
although obviously not real,
in Marvel, it still represents the real human beings making the comic.

That's a fact, and can't be debated.

So, this means, at the time,
Jim Shooter (Editor in-Chief of Marvel, Writer/Creator of Secret Wars I-II & Beyonder)
and Al Milgrom (the artist that penciled Secret Wars I-II)
were TOAA!

Now, although they (Shooter/Milgrom) never appeared on panel,
we know they were TOAA, because well ... that's what TOAA is in Marvel.

So, when Shooter says "he discovered us"
he really means himself/Milgrom withIN the fictional Marvel Universe that only exists in comics,
and that self is TOAA. (represented by an illustrated Avatar)

Now, you're probably asking,
'if TOAA is the Supreme creator of everything withIN the Marvel Universe,
how can Beyonder be above that?'

Simple ...

Beyonder was NOT from the Marvel Universe,
and in fact, he was completely disconnected from it.

Now, obviously, this is based on a fictional concept,
because duh, we know in the real world it was Shooter who created Beyonder,
but withIN the reality of Marvel comics,
Beyonder was NOT created by Shooter's avatar (TOAA),
and instead, Beyonder always was, & had no beginning (like the abrahamic God)
and in fact, as Shooter stated, was an ocean,
while TOAA (Shooter/Milgrom) and the entire Marvelverse was a drop of water in comparison.

However it was (following the thought of marvel Comics) TOAA that depowered Beyonder.

Originally posted by Utrigita

However it was (following the thought of marvel Comics)

TOAA that depowered Beyonder.

Of course, De Falco gave Englehart (writer) the go ahead to make the story (retcon)

But ... no writer can retcon a character on his own accord.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,
it was Tom De Falco, who isn't a writer or artist.
De Falco proceeded Shooter as Editor in Chief,
and only he had the power to retcon Beyonder.

Of course, De Falco gave Englehart (writer) the go ahead to make the story (retcon)

But ... no writer can retcon a character on his own accord.

What the Editor decided is off no concern in the marvel cosmic hierarchy, where it is the Writer in this case Englehart, and only the writer that is being shown as the supreme being, so in Marvel Cosmology it was still TOAA (in the form of the writer) that depowered Beyonder which places TOAA above Beyonder. What was decided in the real world is in no way illustrated in Marvel as the Editor has never been shown as the Supreme Being.

On top of this I have a entirely different understanding of the "us" that Jim Shooter mentioned in his interview but nevermind.

Originally posted by Utrigita

What the Editor decided is off no concern in the marvel cosmic hierarchy, where it is the Writer in this case Englehart, and only the writer that is being shown as the supreme being, so in Marvel Cosmology it was still TOAA (in the form of the writer) that depowered Beyonder which places TOAA above Beyonder. What was decided in the real world is in no way illustrated in Marvel as the Editor has never been shown as the Supreme Being.

Bottom line though:

Without De Falco's sole decision,
Englehart couldn't do shit to Beyonder's historical data.

As for your hierarchy reference,
Jim Shooter was not only the writer, but the Editor in Chief as well,
superseding any writer/artist, this is why NO writer could change Shooter's creation.

This is why again, and logically so,
ONLY De Falco could make that call to retcon Beyonder.

Englehart was only giving the right to make up the story.

But it was De Falco's power that made it possible,
not TOAA (Englehart)

TOAA took orders, and TOAA followed those orders.
(that a fact)

Originally posted by Utrigita

On top of this
I have a entirely different understanding of the "us"
that Jim Shooter mentioned in his interview but nevermind.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Believe what you wish.

Bottom line though:

Without De Falco's sole decision,
Englehart couldn't do shit to Beyonder's historical data.

As for your hierarchy reference,
Jim Shooter was not only the writer, but the Editor in Chief as well,
superseding any writer/artist, this is why NO writer could change Shooter's creation.

This is why again, and logically so,
ONLY De Falco could make that call to retcon Beyonder.

Englehart was only giving the right to make up the story.

But it was De Falco's power that made it possible,
not TOAA (Englehart)

TOAA took orders, and TOAA followed those orders.
(that a fact)

I always choose to do that 🙂

I'm not denying that just stating that in the actual marvel universe that has absolutely no relevance to what Toaa did.

Yes Jim Shooter was Writer/Editor does that make him into some unique version of Toaa? Not at all, since Editor in the marvel Hierarchy means nothing only Writer. In the real world it is true that Jim Shooter was placed in a extremly well placed situation and was indeed above the normal Writer but only in the Real World, nothing suggest otherwise in the comics.

According to Englehart himself he was asked by De Falco not ordered, and what De Falco did ore didn't do is irrelevant to this discussion since the Editor in Chief of marvel has never been shown in the marvel universe as being the Supreme Being.

And how exactly do you plan on show that Fact in the comics? Which is ultimately what we base oure judgement upon.

But agree to disagree Friend? we have both stated oure opinions 🙂

As for the "US" comment I see it more as a reference to the human race then to Jim Shooter as the Supreme Being since I'm not under the impression that it was the perception of the writers in the 80's.

Btw we have been throwing rocks at the wrong person master 🙁

Steve Englehart: Ralph Macchio, the editor, asked me to get rid of the Beyonder, whom Ralph despised. I had not liked him much myself, but when I did my research, I got to see what Shooter had been trying to do, so I think I sent him on his way with some dignity (yes, I know he's come back since...🙂 )

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5785

Originally posted by Utrigita

I'm not denying that
just stating that in the actual marvel universe that has absolutely no relevance to what Toaa did.

Are you playing with me Ut? hm

Originally posted by Utrigita

Yes Jim Shooter was Writer/Editor does that make him into some unique version of Toaa? Not at all, since Editor in the marvel Hierarchy means nothing only Writer.

In the real world it is true that Jim Shooter was placed in a extremly well placed situation and was indeed above the normal Writer but only in the Real World, nothing suggest otherwise in the comics.

The writer can do nothing, without the Editors' decisions.

In comics, or in the real world.

Originally posted by Utrigita

According to Englehart himself he was asked by De Falco not ordered,

and what De Falco did ore didn't do is irrelevant to this discussion
since the Editor in Chief of marvel
has never been shown in the marvel universe as being the Supreme Being.

Hmm ... Here's Editor's Gruenwald & Mackie telling Byrne (writer) what to include on panel.

Yea sure, a writer can have an opinion, but it's the Editor's that have the final say.

swank

Originally posted by Utrigita

And how exactly do you plan on show that Fact in the comics?
Which is ultimately what we base oure judgement upon.

Originally posted by Utrigita

As for the "US" comment I see it more as a reference to the human race then to Jim Shooter as the Supreme Being since I'm not under the impression that it was the perception of the writers in the 80's.

I'll stick to the simple straight forward english.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Btw we have been throwing rocks at the wrong person master 🙁

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5785

Anyhow,
that's 100% bull shit
since Tom De Falco was the Editor in Chief between 87' & 94'

Please, never again present to me CBR forums as a means of proof.

That's the same site that claimed: Brevroort stated Marvel: The End was non-canon. 😆

This thread is full of laughs. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
This thread is full of laughs. 👆

Glad to entertain you 😛

Originally posted by Utrigita
Glad to entertain you 😛

Originally posted by Galan007

This thread is full of laughs. 👆

Not you so much either, but I still like you as well. 😛

It's a great pont though.... The TOAA which is the writer/artist did depower the Beyonder so clearly he is above the beyonder right? There can't be a double standard in that regard.