PR Beyonder VS Primal Monitor

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

It's a great pont though.... The TOAA which is the writer/artist did depower the Beyonder
so clearly he is above the beyonder right?
There can't be a double standard in that regard.

The key is,
without the Editor in Chief's sole decision/consent,
TOAA (Englehart) was powerless to do anything to Beyonder's history.

So yea, TOAA did depower Beyonder,
but only after the Editor in Chief gave em the power/right to do it.

I would put it like this:

pre-retcon Beyonder > TOAA
post-retcon Beyonder < TOAA

Yet but by the same token the TOAA created the beyonder and thus that right there kinda exhibits he's above him as well. My point is, you like to talk about how the artist/writer is the TOAA for Marvel. So, that same logic applies to the Beyonder as TOAA created the Beyonder just like it created Celestials, Thanos etc etc. I don't agree that just because somebody wasn't the editor and chief along with writer etc that somehow diminishes his role in the retcon and being above the Beyonder. So, if there was a person like Shooter who decdied to do the retcon to the Beyonder that somehow would be more valid that it being an order from an editor and chief to a writer... That is silly. TOAA is the TOAA period. The Beyonder as you've argued was a supreme being and thus equal to the TOAA and Thanos with the Heart etc etc. Now your saying the Beyonder before Retcon was above the TOAA... come on now Masters that is silly and hipocritical considering your past statements about Supreme beings and how the writer artist is TOAA for Marvel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And a troll or two. 👇 😏

Not you so much either, but I still like you as well. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007

Is it trolling to call a laughable post, laughable? I prefer not to think so.

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably. 🙂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Yet but by the same token the TOAA created the beyonder and thus that right there kinda exhibits he's above him as well. My point is, you like to talk about how the artist/writer is the TOAA for Marvel. So, that same logic applies to the Beyonder as TOAA created the Beyonder just like it created Celestials, Thanos etc etc.

TOAA used the Infinity Being to create the Marvel Universe. (a separate creation)

The Beyonder was always there, (in the Beyond Realm) and had no beginning.

The Marvel Universe and the Beyond Realm were two completely disconnected Realities.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I don't agree that just because somebody wasn't the editor and chief along with writer etc that somehow diminishes his role in the retcon and being above the Beyonder. So, if there was a person like Shooter who decdied to do the retcon to the Beyonder that somehow would be more valid that it being an order from an editor and chief to a writer... That is silly. TOAA is the TOAA period. The Beyonder as you've argued was a supreme being and thus equal to the TOAA and Thanos with the Heart etc etc. Now your saying the Beyonder before Retcon was above the TOAA... come on now Masters that is silly and hipocritical considering your past statements about Supreme beings and how the writer artist is TOAA for Marvel.

"We (Shooter/Marvel co) introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

Also, I gave my reasons why I sorta changed my mind in this thread,
it's in the previous page, I rather you go through them,
then reply, cause I don't wanna repeat myself.

Neither PR Beyonder or PM shud even be "more powerful" than the writer as they are just both fictional characters. O_O best to stick to on panel feats and the caliber of the cosmic beings they've faced.

IMO, this thread is stupid, it's like comparing infinity vs infinity and who is a bigger number between the two. -_-

Originally posted by Mindset
This is stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Neither PR Beyonder or PM shud even be "more powerful" than the writer as they are just both fictional characters. O_O best to stick to on panel feats and the caliber of the cosmic beings they've faced.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

IMO, this thread is stupid, it's like comparing infinity vs infinity
and who is a bigger number between the two. -_-

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can laugh at whatever you like. who (no offense, but not me at-least)

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably. 🙂

I don't recall ever having mentioned you. mmm

That aside, writing/emailing a comic company because you disagree with something they published, or somesuch = 🤓/fail.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't recall ever having mentioned you. mmm

That aside, writing/emailing a comic company because you disagree with something they published, or somesuch = 🤓/fail.

Ya know Galan it looks far worse IMO when you don't own up to what you say and what you mean. Others and myself have seen you indirectly make comments towards Mr. Masters so many times it's not even funny. Then when called upon it you'll say well I didn't specifically mention you. Clearly, your referring to him and it just makes you look bad when you can't even own up to it. Most threads Mr. Masters post in you'll make some sarcastic comment directed at him and when called on it go... Oooo well I didn't directly say your name... That is just lame and silly. If somebody did that to you all the time I can promise you troll would be a word you used to describe equivalent actions as you do. Obviously, this battle has been going on longer then I've been a part of this site. That's cool not everybody can get along or be expected to. However, call it how it is and don't hide behind some bs to try and save face.

Now, Mr. Masters... a couple of questions....

1. Who published Secret Wars?
2. If shooter was still present and in the same position when the Beyonder was Retconned then would that have made it more valid for you being that it wasn't "ordered" from the Editor in Chief
3. The marvel company produces ALL characters within it's pages correct?

The point in all the questions is really trying to figure out how you can think the Beyonder is really outside of Marvel. It was produced and published by Marvel. The same criteria you always use when saying TOAA wrote this and that also applies to Beyonder. He didn't write his own comic it was produced by Marvel and thus TOAA. Just because Shooter and is various positions weren't there matters not. TOAA retconned the beyonder plain and simple. It doesn't matter who ordered what all that matters is he was retconned by TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In Marvel, the writer/artist is TOAA (the One Above All)
which is basically the true Supreme Being/God
creator of everything that takes place in the Marvel Universe (Omniverse)
This character is represented On Panel by an obvious fictional illustration,
although obviously not real,
in Marvel, it still represents the real human beings making the comic.

That's a fact, and can't be debated.

So, this means, at the time,
Jim Shooter (Editor in-Chief of Marvel, Writer/Creator of Secret Wars I-II & Beyonder)
and Al Milgrom (the artist that penciled Secret Wars I-II)
were TOAA!

Now, although they (Shooter/Milgrom) never appeared on panel,
we know they were TOAA, because well ... that's what TOAA is in Marvel.

So, when Shooter says "he discovered [b]us"
he really means himself/Milgrom withIN the fictional Marvel Universe that only exists in comics,
and that self is TOAA. (represented by an illustrated Avatar)

Now, you're probably asking,
'if TOAA is the Supreme creator of everything withIN the Marvel Universe,
how can Beyonder be above that?'

Simple ...

Beyonder was NOT from the Marvel Universe,
and in fact, he was completely disconnected from it.

Now, obviously, this is based on a fictional concept,
because duh, we know in the real world it was Shooter who created Beyonder,
but withIN the reality of Marvel comics,
Beyonder was NOT created by Shooter's avatar (TOAA),
and instead, Beyonder always was, & had no beginning (like the abrahamic God)
and in fact, as Shooter stated, was an ocean,
while TOAA (Shooter/Milgrom) and the entire Marvelverse was a drop of water in comparison. [/B]

So:

TOAA = Writer's avatar (which I knew)

But apparently, the Beyonder isn't within Marvel and thus wasn't created by TOAA, but was created by Jim Shooter, even though TOAA is supposed to be Jim Shooter.

I understand the concept, but it's a stupid one: if TOAA = Writer, then that means that TOAA/Writer DID create the Beyonder; otherwise who else created the Beyonder? DC??? Marvel Comics created the Secret Wars comic, they wrote it, they DECIDED what the Beyonder SAID and DID, and then they published it and let the money come in. To say that the Beyonder was beyond the power of TOAA is to say that a drawing is beyond the guy that drew it. If I were to draw a picture of Superman, could the drawing overpower me???

Jim shooter WROTE the Secret Wars, so he DECIDED what the Beyonder does. If TOAA and Beyonder were to battle, then Jim Shooter would just make it so that the Beyonder gets killed by Squirrel girl throwing an acorn at him.

So yes, TOAA is but an avatar and is different/less powerful than Jim Shooter, and the Marvel Multiverse =/= everything that Marvel Comics makes (otherwise the beyond realm was made by who...McDonalds?). It makes sense...sort of.

Same thing with Mxy; him coming out of the pages and messing with the narrator's words? WTF? It's the narrator that DECIDED that Mxy would do that...

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA (writer Englehart) was issued a duty by the Editor in Chief Tom De Falco,
to make up a story where the Beyonder gets retconned,
so TOAA obeyed, and wrote the Beyonder a new history.

The key is,
without the Editor in Chief's sole decision/consent,
TOAA (Englehart) was powerless to do anything to Beyonder's history.

So yea, TOAA did depower Beyonder,
but only after the Editor in Chief gave em the power/right to do it.

I would put it like this:

pre-retcon Beyonder > TOAA
post-retcon Beyonder < TOAA

So why is TOAA a "supreme being" and "Omnipotent"? Niether he/she/it/they nor Beyonder is omnipotent, because the Beyonder is fallible and TOAA is (according to you) < Beyonder.

So the Editor in Chief is THE supreme being.

Wait...no, because he still has to follow federal law, so the government is the "supreme being".

So Obama is the supreme being of Marvel!!!!!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ya know Galan it looks far worse IMO when you don't own up to what you say and what you mean. Others and myself have seen you indirectly make comments towards Mr. Masters so many times it's not even funny. Then when called upon it you'll say well I didn't specifically mention you. Clearly, your referring to him and it just makes you look bad when you can't even own up to it. Most threads Mr. Masters post in you'll make some sarcastic comment directed at him and when called on it go... Oooo well I didn't directly say your name... That is just lame and silly. If somebody did that to you all the time I can promise you troll would be a word you used to describe equivalent actions as you do. Obviously, this battle has been going on longer then I've been a part of this site. That's cool not everybody can get along or be expected to. However, call it how it is and don't hide behind some bs to try and save face.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can laugh at whatever you like. who (no offense, but not me at-least)

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably. 🙂

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So:

TOAA = Writer's avatar (which I knew)

But apparently, the Beyonder isn't within Marvel and thus wasn't created by TOAA, but was created by Jim Shooter, even though TOAA is supposed to be Jim Shooter.

Jim Shooter created The Beyonder. We, in the real world, know this. Jim Shooter's avatar within Marvel Comics, The One Above All, did not. Because in the story, the Beyonder came from beyond the infinite Marvel Universe.

Get it?

Originally posted by Enyalus

Because The Presence did not create the DCU. Either 1) The Source did. Or 2) Synnar did. Depending on which cosmogony you want to believe. [/B]

In fact, Superman is the one who created the Multiverse. That's according to FC; Near the end

Originally posted by xJLxKing
In fact, Superman is the one who created the Multiverse. That's according to FC; Near the end

Sounds like BS to me. Krona is the one who basically 'created' the multiverse.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Can you post the scan or give me an issue #?

Sounds like BS to me. Krona is the one who basically 'created' the multiverse.

can someone please make a dc cosmology list/thread?

since i've been on kmc i've heard like 6 beings being credited for the creation of dc, and then you have all the 4th + dimensional entities.....

imo it would shorten a lot of these circumlocutory debates.

I don't think it was ever really directly stated who created the universe. Not from what I've read. I have seen a scan where Superman creates(a theory only). Or the Presence saying that Michael and other being are his toys because he created them. Then you got what Eny said.