Alex Mercer vs Dante

Originally posted by Burning thought

"they dont have to be moving at speeds at all, concerning DMC, he does shit that makes no sense quite often." <- Same as what I wrote. "Not fast cos DMC is a weird verse" aka not an argument.

Seeing as his whole body is barely moving.. No. Wow ignore what I say and yell BS, how do you e-clap on here? Brief movements wont cause drag friction, curved paths wont cause friction. Long, linear speeds can cause drag friction. Room-sized flat objects > Sword-sized sharp objects... Dont even need to touch your dev counter as it was a different team working on these games.

Yeah cos what did consistency ever prove? Also, stop failing to answer what I ask: Is your whole argument coat movements and friction? Yes or no?

Still doing that mimic thing? Interesting. Funny because in the other thread your single comeback is "Ive claced it so Im right", thats more interesting than the first interest.

^Small as its just your bashing talk, dont be bothered with this replying unless youre gonna replace the insults with evidence.

😐 Why is it that whenever I ask a question you answer by asking me a question? No, I'll answer your points when you answer the ones Ive already asked of you.

Now, prove that Alastor has the ability to create stasis fields and that that scene is not due to the speed its description says it gives. You say its solid so getting solid evidence would be no trouble. But, if your whole evidence is that 'I guess it looks like it' then I guess that mean that Clark Kent isnt really fast but has the power to create a stasis field when he runs..., also thrown out as several scenes use a slowed down effect to symbolize speed. [Alastor, billiard scene, rain scene, Vergil vs Abyss', Vergil catching bullets, Pandora cutscene. Unless Dante and Vergil now have the ability to create stasis fields, without Alastor, to slow down balls, rain, bullets and demons and do so for absolutely no logical reason.]

Another interesting point; you said that physics backs you up, but when seeing Dante running at speeds where he produces visible friction heat like that of objects travelling above hypersonic speeds you catagorize it as being mach 1. So with all the physics on you side tell me how a small, thin Mach 1 object can generate the friction visible on wider hyper ones?

Oh, and looking back at the previous argument I noticed that you disagreed with the point I made that was backed up the dev's quotes. So excuse me if I don't reply to that with more than 'what a dev says about their game > anyone here'.

Theres nothing left to say in this thread, its been disproven as speed, if you want to complain that it cant be a stasis field then I dont really care, its just not speed because speed, friction and air presure is not shown, not even hte movement of his coat. Game, set and match.

/Im right cos im right so youre wrong/ greatest reply ever...

The one person who claims its a stasis field cant/wont prove his claims and cant/wont counter evidence that totally strips his claim. Why am I not surprised?

Lol friction is not shown? Didnt know I was the only person that could see any flames in that vid~

Just face it bro, you have nothing to support your made up claim and cant find a way to to de-feat the obvious friction heat or several times the 'stasis field' effect happens. Come back if you can think of an argument, til then Ill see if anyone else has problems with his Mach 10-15+ and lightning feats.

I dont recall saying that, I recall pointing out the facts in a scene that disprove you.

Youve yet to counter the fact friction, movement of things that should move, including glass and air pressure are not even there. I suggested it was a stasis field, so far my suggestion based on what we can see in the video is more likely, than what it cannot be, speed.

Seriously, you're dismissing a feat because it doesn't display 100% accurate physics? In a video game?

Seriously?

As it is, its scientific fact that time slows the faster you move, nicely demonstrated by that Smallville clip. Simply going by which is likelier, Dante moving really freaking fast is much more likely than his sword generating a telekinetic stasis field, a thing that its never done since or before whereas he has demonstrated superspeed in other places.

It shows the physics, thats the problem though, it doesnt show them to the degree BR's speed claims it would. Dantes coat does move, but it moves like he was in a breeze. Same with the glass, which may not be moving at all, if it were speed they should at least be moving at some such, if anything it looks to me like their stuck in the air.

how can it be more likely if none of the physical ramifications for this are shown? Also its a lightning sword, kinetic static makes some sense to me other than speed without any of the forces that come with it. Also the sword has not canonically displayed superspeed in other places, although Dantes actual speed feats are also arguable. What "superseed in other places", did you have in mind?

Theres also the fact, the sword itself is not even hot after apprently moving like that and when Dante lets it spin in the air, it moves what? a meter or so? if it had just been moving at hundreds ifn ot thousands of meters/second dont you think it would go further? of course it would...

Originally posted by Burning thought
It shows the physics, thats the problem though, it doesnt show them to the degree BR's speed claims it would. Dantes coat does move, but it moves like he was in a breeze. Same with the glass, which may not be moving at all, if it were speed they should at least be moving at some such, if anything it looks to me like their stuck in the air.

how can it be more likely if none of the physical ramifications for this are shown? Also its a lightning sword, kinetic static makes some sense to me other than speed without any of the forces that come with it. Also the sword has not canonically displayed superspeed in other places, although Dantes actual speed feats are also arguable. What "superseed in other places", did you have in mind?

Because its a video game. How many video games care about displaying accurate physics? You need to stop acting as if these scenes are actual events that occur and are subject to regular physics because they're not. They're created on a computer and sometimes developers just don't give a shit about making things 100% accurate to real life and don't care as much as you do about physics. The obvious meaning of the scene (as backed up by the speed lines made by their sword slashes during it) is that Dante and Virgil move at superspeeds. By your logic Clark really does generate the same stasis field when he moves because his friend wasn't blown away by air that logically would be generated by him moving so fast.

Because the developers don't give a shit about physical ramifications. And kinetic static has nothing to do with lightning. As for Dantes speed feats, I'm not going to bother posting them. You should be exceedingly well acquainted with them by now.

Also I don't know why you're mocking me for a spelling mistake that I did not make. I said 'superspeed' not 'superseed'. 😐

Well thats probably why the glass didnt seem to be depicting "real physical attributes" and has nothing to do with speed then clearly. Devs didnt give a shit, it just looks cool so why is anyone trying to use anything in this scene as an impressive feat? Your logic swings both ways, "devs are lazy" or "devs do things for lulz or cool factor" can be spoken for why a lot of that scene happens.

BR is calculating things for speed on a physical basis. If you dont agree with calculating physical elements and regular physics then why are you argueing with me and not him who does so as well? I know why so thats rhetorical question btw.

Also watching it again, aside from all the other strange physical problems with the scene, it also looks like the glass is spinning on the spot where they are. Weird....not that DMC does not have its own fair share of weirdness and has proven it has no care for physical equation.

I have been well acquainted with Dante since I finished all his games, however people still seem to come up with some hyperbole and stretches of the imagination for him. Its funny, people who dont know Lok at all claim I hype it, yet when I know DMC I can legit point out the hype.

I didnt mock you, I simply misquoted you.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well thats probably why the glass didnt seem to be depicting "real physical attributes" and has nothing to do with speed then clearly. Devs didnt give a shit, it just looks cool so why is anyone trying to use anything in this scene as an impressive feat? Your logic swings both ways, "devs are lazy" or "devs do things for lulz or cool factor" can be spoken for why a lot of that scene happens.

BR is calculating things for speed on a physical basis. If you dont agree with calculating physical elements and regular physics then why are you argueing with me and not him who does so as well? I know why so thats rhetorical question btw.

Also watching it again, aside from all the other strange physical problems with the scene, it also looks like the glass is spinning on the spot where they are. Weird....not that DMC does not have its own fair share of weirdness and has proven it has no care for physical equation.

I didnt mock you, I simply misquoted you.

Glass? I believe we're talking about the rain feat, not the glass one. And no, that is a highly illogical line of reasoning. Clearly the developers made the rain hang suspended in mid-air for a reason. They would have had to have put in a ton of extra effort into making that scene. If they really didn't care they would have kept the ordinary speed rain texture that they already have. Obviously they wanted to say something by having the rain hang suspended in mid-air. But they just didn't put in the time and effort needed to make the scene 100% physics accurate. Why would they? You don't need to see air friction and all that other shit to know whats going on in the scene.

The fact is that in very few visual mediums the creators bother to work out how to 100% accurately depict superspeed. Again going back to the Smallville clip, you could argue that its invalid because Clarks jacket moves as if he's jogging rather than moving at hypersonic speeds and isn't affected by friction. But we know that Clark (aka Superman) has superspeed so the little discrepancies do not invalidate him having it. This same thing happens in nearly every example of superspeed in visual fiction, and in all superhuman physics in general.

Theres also the simple fact of technological limitations.

As to the scene, it is clearly superspeed as opposed to your ludicrous stasis field thing. You're clearly just arguing the point because you want to diminish Dante, as opposed to any genuine belief in your argument.

Also, could you not apply this logic to Kain and Raziel as well? For all that you argue that they generate stupid levels of force with their attacks, they sure as shit do not generate powerful blasts of air or extremely high-levels of friction. If I recall, you've even argued that Raziels claws logically create heat higher than the sun through friction, dispite their being absolutely no visual evidence of this whatsoever.

This page is very informative.

And this one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Glass? I believe we're talking about the rain feat, not the glass one. And no, that is a highly illogical line of reasoning. Clearly the developers made the rain hang suspended in mid-air for a reason. They would have had to have put in a ton of extra effort into making that scene. If they really didn't care they would have kept the ordinary speed rain texture that they already have. Obviously they wanted to say something by having the rain hang suspended in mid-air. But they just didn't put in the time and effort needed to make the scene 100% physics accurate. Why would they? You don't need to see air friction and all that other shit to know whats going on in the scene.

The fact is that in very few visual mediums the creators bother to work out how to 100% accurately depict superspeed. Again going back to the Smallville clip, you could argue that its invalid because Clarks jacket moves as if he's jogging rather than moving at hypersonic speeds and isn't affected by friction. But we know that Clark (aka Superman) has superspeed so the little discrepancies do not invalidate him having it. This same thing happens in nearly every example of superspeed in visual fiction, and in all superhuman physics in general.

Theres also the simple fact of technological limitations.

As to the scene, it is clearly superspeed as opposed to your ludicrous stasis field thing. You're clearly just arguing the point because you want to diminish Dante, as opposed to any genuine belief in your argument.

Also, could you not apply this logic to Kain and Raziel as well? For all that you argue that they generate stupid levels of force with their attacks, they sure as shit do not generate powerful blasts of air or extremely high-levels of friction. If I recall, you've even argued that Raziels claws logically create heat higher than the sun through friction, dispite their being absolutely no visual evidence of this whatsoever.

I was talking about alastor and the glass scene, what one were you talking about? As for the rain, its more like air pressure, theres no real physical reason for most of that to happen and when their blades strike it doesnt create heat, yet it does when they rub their swords together later.

DMC, does however have some physics and although its true there may be technological problems with animating it, this is not true in these examples because Dantes coat "does" move, their swords "do" built friction heat....if its not there then clearly, neither is the feat.

Also why do people keep showing me smallville? I dont know anything about it, I dont watch it, and I dont know much about Superman tbh other than the common things, were talking about Dante. This is also a game where everything is animated from the ground up, I imagine its a lot harder to make the guys coat look like its moving realistically at high speed.

Here youve just gone back to stateing "its clearly superspeed", why? because glass seems to freeze?

Yes you could, they create stupid levels of pressure, not force exactly. They create enough force to knock over 300 tons or flip 300 tons, thats not that high tbh compared to some people like Kratos and objects in real life can lift and move that much weight. Also I like how things I say become convoluted, I never said it heats up to the suns heat, that would be impossible from that speed and strength.....I simply pointed out it would create friction heat.

Also the tropes are interesting but they dont prove Dantes feats either way, simply outline that some things are simply assumed or ignored, in which case, you cant use all the calculations to buff/hype Dante either.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I was talking about alastor and the glass scene, what one were you talking about? As for the rain, its more like air pressure, theres no real physical reason for most of that to happen and when their blades strike it doesnt create heat, yet it does when they rub their swords together later.

As I said, the one where Dante and Virgil are fighting in the rain. And no, air pressure doesn't work like that. Air pressure would not stop the rain in midair, it would blow the drops back. And the obvious physical reason for it is that they are moving so fast it seems as if time has stopped. This is a process know as Time Dilation, aka, 'Time moves slower the faster you move' and is a staple part of relativistic physics (and why people think that if you went faster than the speed of light, you'd time travel).

Originally posted by Burning thought
DMC, does however have some physics and although its true there may be technological problems with animating it, this is not true in these examples because Dantes coat "does" move, their swords "do" built friction heat....if its not there then clearly, neither is the feat.

Incorrect and absurd. Simply because some things do not make sense does not invalidate a feat. As ever the developers are simply using artistic license in regards to physics. The scene is supposed to be taking place in slow motion, so it would kill the mood if their coats were falpping about as if in a hurricane. As for the swords, one could argue that they were simply moving too fast for the heat to become visually apparant before they locked swords. Or we could remember that its a scene in a video game and as such their swords are heating up purely for dramatic effect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also why do people keep showing me smallville? I dont know anything about it, I dont watch it, and I dont know much about Superman tbh other than the common things, were talking about Dante. This is also a game where everything is animated from the ground up, I imagine its a lot harder to make the guys coat look like its moving realistically at high speed.

Smallville has very good, clear examples of superspeed slowing the world around you the faster you go. Its simply being used to explain this concept to you since you're apparantly struggling with it, as well as just being used as a clear example of what we're talking about.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Here youve just gone back to stateing "its clearly superspeed", why? because glass seems to freeze?

Yes. As has been explained to you multiple times, this is the clear and most likely reason for it to be occuring based upon what we know, as opposed to your explanation of the scene which makes no logical sense and has nothing supporting it.

Plus does not the actual weapon discription of Alastor talk about speed?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also the tropes are interesting but they dont prove Dantes feats either way, simply outline that some things are simply assumed or ignored, in which case, you cant use all the calculations to buff/hype Dante either.

Again, I was simply using them as examples and to convey some simple concepts to you. Obviously its a fallacy to assume that physics in a video game would match up to those of real life. I mean, that would be like claiming characters in video ggames aren't human because of a few visual discrepancies. Obviously you have to give some leeway with the physical aspects of fiction.

If you don't want to use the Smallville scene, heres another one. Warning: Spoilers!

YouTube video

Superspeed starts at 3.45.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, the one where Dante and Virgil are fighting in the rain. And no, air pressure doesn't work like that. Air pressure would not stop the rain in midair, it would blow the drops back. And the obvious physical reason for it is that they are moving so fast it seems as if time has stopped. This is a process know as Time Dilation, aka, 'Time moves slower the faster you move' and is a staple part of relativistic physics (and why people think that if you went faster than the speed of light, you'd time travel).

Incorrect and absurd. Simply because some things do not make sense does not invalidate a feat. As ever the developers are simply using artistic license in regards to physics. The scene is supposed to be taking place in slow motion, so it would kill the mood if their coats were falpping about as if in a hurricane. As for the swords, one could argue that they were simply moving too fast for the heat to become visually apparant before they locked swords. Or we could remember that its a scene in a video game and as such their swords are heating up purely for dramatic effect.

Smallville has very good, clear examples of superspeed slowing the world around you the faster you go. Its simply being used to explain this concept to you since you're apparantly struggling with it, as well as just being used as a clear example of what we're talking about.

Yes. As has been explained to you multiple times, this is the clear and most likely reason for it to be occuring based upon what we know, as opposed to your explanation of the scene which makes no logical sense and has nothing supporting it.

Plus does not the actual weapon discription of Alastor talk about speed?

Again, I was simply using them as examples and to convey some simple concepts to you. Obviously its a fallacy to assume that physics in a video game would match up to those of real life. I mean, that would be like claiming characters in video ggames aren't human because of a few visual discrepancies. Obviously you have to give some leeway with the physical aspects of fiction.

If you don't want to use the Smallville scene, heres another one. Warning: Spoilers!

YouTube video

Superspeed starts at 3.45.

If your talking abut the rain scene I just watched, they create a cushion of air pressure around them then all the rain suddenly drops. Can you show me the video itself please and the timings.

It does if the things that are not in place for the claim to be true. I think their using artistic license throughout the scene, theres no real speed but it looks cool, thats about it, if their coats actually moved quickly how would that ruin the mood....it would prove their moving fast themselves. You can see the swords though as they clash. Again your making up a lot of decisions of being fair for the sake of "its a video game, things happen for dramatic effect not reality" yet when it comes to the speed aspect, thats the only thing thats apprently real and not just a "dramatic effect" full of "artistic license".

I am more struggling with the belief that any suspended glass or rain automatically within a fiction no less ,despite half of the physical ramifications for it being against such an idea assumed as speed of an incredible value. It does not really even make sense because when they fight properly their not moving much more than peak human, especially when Vergil defeats Dante.

Based upon what we know? what? that speed creates X amount of physical values, DMC actually uses those values on screen yet not to the degree X has to be for the speed feat to be impressive. we know this for a fact, we dont know the facts behind a magic sword concerning the glass feats, as for the rain, thats hard to describe as anything but artistic license although its not a good feat for speed or reactions tbh because their just slashing swords together wheras what Vergil does with the bullets is really impressive.

Well that final video proves physics and calculating it certainly for speed is pretty pointless in some fictions. But the thing that scene actually has in its favour is that apart from the fact the guy is mentioning super speed as what it specifically is, wheras a magic sword, glass apparently stuck in the air spinning or no physical effects in DMC is unexplained but as I said before, you seem to be struggling with the fact that unlike this scene, DMC does take into account a good few forces from friction, to air pressure to movement of clothing, it just doesnt do it to the degree the feat may require, this isnt some really clever twist of physics that I am delving into....

You know perfectly well which scene I'm talking about.

That scene is more or less retconned iirc in the same game, when you actually play the fight itself, the scenes between the gameplay and cinematics are different to that.

And ime right, there is a cushion of air created that falls when they stop fighting, all the water drops down. As I say, and as you said before artistic license is used a lot in games though so none of that making logical sense is fine. Also if what you and BR would claim as correct, why cant Dante move or even attempt to dodge Vergil? for someone whos so fast...sure it could be PIS but ive yet to see him actually react to an attack at such speeds when vergil is serious.

Being 'more or less retconned' isn't actually being retconned BT. 🙂

Sigh, and I should have known you'd try to take advantage of what I'm trying to get through to you. I'm done explaining things to you calmly and logically. I think I'll just go back to not taking you seriously again.

Well ok, maybe I should be more sure. yes it was retconned....it went from that beginning intro, to this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQeRRZv8YcM#t=3m40s

They replaced that fight canonically with him simply saying he doesnt like vergil, then they go into the "friction" push.

You fail to convince me and instead of admitting it with some class you have to act like your now suddenly "above" me with some arrogance. Its like your endurance in any argument is a few posts then you back away when you fail to succeed. No wonder my less endurant trolls get so excited when someone makes more than a few posts against me.

I don't think I'm 'suddenly' above you. I've thought that for quite some time thank you very much. I'm confident that I've proven my point satisfactorily. I have nothing more to prove and I'm not so insecure over my e-peen as to be goaded into more pointless dialogue with you.

You know I used to troll like you, but then I got an arrow in the knee...

Spoiler:
You said something about pointless dialogue then made a post thats pretty much just arrogent pointless dialogue....lol

Neph smoothly covered it. As shown in other media when a character enters super speed they can make the world appear to come to a crawl, not be effected by air pressure or friction, and have their clothes/hair/etc moving normally. To say Dante with this effect cannot be due to speed if for you to say that Clark Kent, Sonic and Metro-Man were not actually moving fast but did this because to a stasis-like power.

The issue with your claim is that its just that. As you said, only your suggestion based on what you think it looks like. Nothing to support it and nothing to back it up. If it was a stasis field then Dante's coat wouldnt be flapping around like that, it would be suspended just like the glass. More to the point, there is no quote saying stasis field while there is a quote saying it grants speed.

I doubt Dante put up a field to slow these Mach 2+ bullets down. Same goes for Vergil. Can Dante create a stasis field that can slow down such a large area but somehow doesnt effect this coat, hair or the projectiles? Can Vergil create stasis fields that allow his coat and sword tassle to move around but still slows down enemies?

No. Dante cant. Vergil cant. Metro-Man, Sonic and Clark cant.

If we ignore the Rain, three bullet, Pandora and Abyss scenes and then ignore Alastor's description.. then we may as well start making up claims.

Oh, and its funny how the Alastor feat in your opinion has to have friction heat to be official.... yet when Dante /does/ burn with hypersonic friction its not a speed feat? Pick and choose?