Originally posted by Daredevil1
Well your the one that brought it up in your statement.
If her mind rape is not what your arguing then don't bring it up. Not that difficult.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
And this proves a mind rape how. Again fail.
At this point it's worth noting she's dissapeared in broad daylight in front of Wolverine and DD... 😐
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Well Cap is enhanced. Elektra is not enhanced. She's an athlete...if you want to prove she's superhuman you better find some character statements and more then one calling her superhuman.
You see, I don't need to find a statement that calls Elektra enhanced when everything she does is outside the scope of human ability even for a comic human.
She deflected a bullet with her barehand for godsakes... It shouldn't be that hard to figure out on your own.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Considering she's read his mind before.. no it doesn't.
Yes Wolverine is a cream of the crop for sure. And thats a good example she didn't mind rape him. Which helps my point.
Originally posted by Daredevil1At this point I'm going to assume you think of mindrape under the terms of illusions and mind control. Again, I've never tried to make the claim she would do this to Cap, but reading his mind shouldn't prove too difficult.
In fact her fights with Daredevil, Taskmaster, Shang Chi, Bullseye, Wolverine etc etc she didn't mind rape anyone.
Originally posted by Daredevil1She played with Shang so I fail to see where you think she would want to use her Tp abilities on him. And she's curbed DD without them. 😕
Well if you can't prove it. Thats your fault plus she did fight Daredevil and Shang Chi.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
In your opinion. Beams>>>bullets.
No. In point of fact. Steve has never done something on par of blocking bullet after bullet, from an automatic weapon, individually, using a tool with the surface area of a quarter inch.
Beams>Bullets? Sure... and blocking them one a time or dodging them are nice feats, and easily above blocking bullets one at a time or dodging bullets... but sadly Steve's best feats against bullets aren't as impressive as that..
Originally posted by Daredevil1It's not an opinion, there are no feats under Cap belt that show comparible hand speed and accuracy to that feat.
Again your opinion. Fact of the matter is Cap is enhanced while Elektra is a great athlete.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Again, when all over feats are at the top of the street level you really don't need statements... This is just another feats>stats
Let see some statements that say she has superhuman speed jinzin. Show some actual proof besides your opinion. And if you think her blocking bullets is proof then its laughable at best since A list street characters play in bullets.
And yes, most top level streets "play in bullets", but not many of them show the hand speed to block those bullets one after the other coming from machine gun fire... if you have a hard time understanding what seperates that feat from the standard, bounding around a room full of gun fire stuff... then you're beyond all help.
Originally posted by jinzinNo. In point of fact. Steve has never done something on par of blocking bullet after bullet, from an automatic weapon, individually, using a tool with the surface area of a quarter inch.
You keep going on about the surface area because its really conveinient for you. Its not just the fact he was blocking beams he was blocking beams from a robot designed by Tony Stark.
Beams>>>> Bullets
Robot designed by Tony Stark >>>> Trained Mercenary
OMIGOD THE SURFACE AREA WASNT AS SMALL!!!!
Hell im pretty sure that Gambit has blocked machine gunfire with his staff and its not that much bigger than a sai. You could even argue that its harder to block with a staff than a sai.
Originally posted by jinzin
Beams>Bullets? Sure... and blocking them one a time or dodging them are nice feats, and easily above blocking bullets one at a time or dodging bullets... but sadly Steve's best feats against bullets aren't as impressive as that..
OK you asked for it Cap outrunning a bullet in a straight line. I think the only other street leveler to do that is Mantis.
Originally posted by jinzin
It's not an opinion, there are no feats under Cap belt that show comparible hand speed and accuracy to that feat.
Heil Jinzin!
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Cap is right and you are wrong.
BASED. ON. WHAT? 😐
Perhaps you would like to outright prove that Logan was in a berserker rage because from all appearances the only reason Cap came to that conclusion was because Logan was aggressively attacking him....
Cap hadn't even seen Logan in a berserker rage yet...
"he's supposed to be unstoppable in a berserker rage"... Supposed to? Yeah exactly! Because up to that point Cap had never seen Logan in one. like Hammer said, when even Wolverine's teammates can't distinguish the difference between Logan pissed and Logan in a B-rage, how the hell is Cap an authority on the matter? Oh wait he isn't, you just decided he was because that's what suits your ridiculous argument that Wolverine WAS in a B-rage when he was anything but.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
You say Logan had the mind of a wolf. Prove it. I'll give you the chance just like last time. Show me a scan saying he has a wolfs mind in this arch. I already proved he's berserk.
Uhh..... No you didn't... 😕
What you proved was that CAP SUPPOSED he was berserk... That doesn't automatically translate to fact does it.
And... he wasn't... anyways...
Wolverine responded to orders from his peers to attack and to stop attacking. He also fails to outright overpower Cap in his "supposed berserker rage" which he would EASILY do in a real one.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1404ocd13.jpg?t=1246114130
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/622/captainamerica5pz3.jpg
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1404ocd18.jpg?t=1246114306
Wolverine in his state wasn't even smart enough to figure out how to escape brick prison with his Adamantium claws... It's been noted and demonstrated repeatedly that Wolverine's quite intelligent while berserker.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd13.jpg?t=1246114414
And once again responding to Moonstone's commands, able to process orders and follow them.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd14.jpg?t=1246114677
Finally he was simply mindconrolled and out of his right mind... as it was also noted.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd18.jpg?t=1246115149
You want to say it wasn't outright stated he had the mind of a wolf? That's fine and fair, but what you can't argue is... well... anything else that you're arguing here.. He certainly wasn't in a B-rage and you need to note that it was referenced at least once that Logan was suited for the werewolf community.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Indeed. Did you? Because he was mind controlled just like Moonstone was.http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/8359/capamericav140611roughe.jpg I guess Moonstone also has the mind of a wolf.....LOL
Yep. Just like Moonstone huh?
Because Moonstone had his aggression levels pushed up to an extreme, and constantly walked around barely able to a communicate more than a growl, responded to orders from all of his peers, and became monumentally unintelligent. Yup that's JUST LIKE how Moonstone was.....
Oh wait, no it wasn't....
They were both mind controlled.. that's where the similarities end.
Unable to defend himself. Actually read jinzin.
Gotta get shield in position must move(as he was interrupted by Moonstone). He was in position to defend himself. Wolverines not holding down his arms. You'll twist anything.[/B][/QUOTE]
Cap knowing that he needed to do something doesn't mean he was able to. That's what happens when you get TKO'd you know what's happening but you can't do a damned thing about it. Again, he couldn't even defend himself from Moonstone walking over to him and sticking him with a needle but he was going to defend against Wolverine's next attack?... If your defense is that Moonstone's sheer presence was enough to render Cap completely helpless.... 😂
And I'm twisting huh. The fact is that Wolverine held him at a complete disadvantage even in a horrid mental state.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Face it. Scans prove you wrong no matte what you type.
Yeah... clearly wrong about that one too.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Again rebuttal with no real relevance. Point is thats the reason Logan did bad against Elektra. Plus notice again she didn't mind rape him in that fight because she can't. And she admitted she was trying to kill Logan as well.
She WAS reading his mind.... and DID vanish right infront of his face in broad daylight later on.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Every ABC comparison between the two is to Elektra's favor. It certainly hurts your case and no he doesn't.
Doesn't really hurt my case. Even if you remove DD from my equation Cap is still enhanced and has the better speed feats.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Doesn't traslate to being faster than Elektra.
Iron Fist compliments on Cap's speed and power.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Daredevil says Cap is stronger and faster.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Punisher states Cap is stronger faster. Cable said it as well as New Cap.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
At least with Cap we know were he stands. He is at the peak of human potential and compliments of being faster including whizzing by Daredevil. Who is a great athlete just like Elektra.
Originally posted by Daredevil1PSSHHYEAH right!
Point is. There are dozens of statements for Cap being at the peak of human potential in the story books since you don't like handbooks. Now lets see you show proof that Elektra has superhuman speed from the books. Otherwise your just making things up just like your above old statements.
Again, Feats>Stats. You don't need it to be stated that Elektra has superhuman attributes to know that it's been displayed.
Oh hey! 😱 I write a post and Zone's there 2 minutes later with his nose up my ass... what a surprise.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You keep going on about the surface area because its really conveinient for you. Its not just the fact he was blocking beams he was blocking beams from a robot designed by Tony Stark.
Beams>>>> Bullets
Robot designed by Tony Stark >>>> Trained Mercenary[/B][/QUOTE]
Alright, well for starters, the beams were described as being of a concussive nature, which doesn't automatically translate to laser speed. Look at Bishop's power set and weapons, as well as Mavericks, those are concussive beams, and they aren't lasers.
Second, Steve blocked them away one at a time.
Third, they weren't coming at him with the consecutive fire of a machine gun.
And finally it's not as if Elektra's not fast enough to react to this type of crap.
http://s593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/Skill/?action=view¤t=Elektra_Skill_Elektra_Root_Of_Ev-18.jpg
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/MightyAvengers16-009.jpg
Once again, whether it was a robot firing or a merc DOESN'T MATTER....
Elektra wasn't avoiding the aim of the merc or anything, and his aim or target leading ability isn't what makes it a speed feat, what makes it a speed feat is how fast bullets travel and how fast they come out of an automatic weapon in succession and Elektras ability to bat them away in spite of those factors...
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
OMIGOD THE SURFACE AREA WASNT AS SMALL!!!!
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hell im pretty sure that Gambit has blocked machine gunfire with his staff and its not that much bigger than a sai. You could even argue that its harder to block with a staff than a sai.
Scans?
And? Gambit's speed and agility are enhanced attributes of his character. With his skill set this isn't surprising.
I fail to see how you think this discredits Elektra's ability to do this.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneWhich is great for his foot race speed. Again, I'm sure he'd win in a foot race... This isn't a foot race, and that feat is still vastly more impressive than his own when it comes to hand speed and accuracy.
OK you asked for it Cap outrunning a bullet in a straight line. I think the only other street leveler to do that is Mantis.
Originally posted by BUSTER1
So uh is there any proof that Cap couldn't pull off the hand sai/bullet speed feat that Elektra performed?
No proof aye. Then as far as I'm concerned Elektra is no faster than Steve. So as the two are on the same level speedwise and Cap has greater strength and durability, then I say without doubt, Cap for a certain win.
Originally posted by jinzin
Oh hey! 😱 I write a post and Zone's there 2 minutes later with his nose up my ass... what a surprise.Alright, well for starters, the beams were described as being of a concussive nature, which doesn't automatically translate to laser speed. Look at Bishop's power set and weapons, as well as Mavericks, those are concussive beams, and they aren't lasers.
An energy beam is similar to a laser and under some cirumstances the samething. They probably move at similar speeds to a laser just because its concussive doesnt mean it dont.
You know for some strange reason I think the reason why Tony Stark fitted it with beams instead of bullets was because it would be harder.
Originally posted by jinzin
Third, they weren't coming at him with the consecutive fire of a machine gun.
They were coming at him at split second intervals, so yeah thats like a machine gun.
Energy Beam >>> bullets
Tony Stark Robot >>> Mercenaries
Originally posted by jinzin
And finally it's not as if Elektra's not fast enough to react to this type of crap.
Dont care its still a better feat, provide something better.
Originally posted by jinzin
http://s593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/Skill/?action=view¤t=Elektra_Skill_Elektra_Root_Of_Ev-18.jpg
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/elektrarespectthread/MightyAvengers16-009.jpg
So let me get this straight right you want to moan about Cap using a gauntlet to block lasers but you're using an example of her using a whole human being? Wow. 🤨
That feat is in no way comparable the beams werent coming at her in rapid sucession either.
Originally posted by jinzin
Once again, whether it was a robot firing or a merc DOESN'T MATTER....
Elektra wasn't avoiding the aim of the merc or anything, and his aim or target leading ability isn't what makes it a speed feat, what makes it a speed feat is how fast bullets travel and how fast they come out of an automatic weapon in succession and Elektras ability to bat them away in spite of those factors...
Originally posted by jinzin
It's important, as the smaller the objects, the faster her mind has to process what she sees, and the faster she has to be to react to accurately. It speaks volumes about her cognitive ability, which able to have full conversations at a speed where enhanced soldiers can't even process she's entered a room... isn't hard to believe.
Great I understand that.
Energy Beams >>> Bullets
TS Robot >>> Trained Mercenary
Originally posted by jinzin
Scans?
Are you serioulsy trying to tell me that you've never seen gambit block machine gunfire with a staff?
Well at any rate during the Infinite war an evil version of Gambit was blocking gunfire from policeman from different angles, this was in a Nomad issue. They werent using machine guns but there were several of them. Im sure there are other examples.
Originally posted by jinzin
And? Gambit's speed and agility are enhanced attributes of his character. With his skill set this isn't surprising.I fail to see how you think this discredits Elektra's ability to do this.
Er because Gambit got completely owned by Wolverine in h2h so blocking bullets with a sai dont automatically mean a goddamn thing.
Originally posted by jinzin
Which is great for his foot race speed. Again, I'm sure he'd win in a foot race... This isn't a foot race, and that feat is still vastly more impressive than his own when it comes to hand speed and accuracy.
Yeah I know because being able to run fast isnt going to help Cap lung at Elektra quickly and move backwards out of the way. Running speed can be applied to h2h.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
An energy beam is similar to a laser and under some cirumstances the samething. They probably move at similar speeds to a laser just because its concussive doesnt mean it dont.
Again, in Marvel if it's a concussive blast it doesn't translate to being a laser, ask Bishop.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneOr... non lethal.... given they were made of concussive beams for training....
You know for some strange reason I think the reason why Tony Stark fitted it with beams instead of bullets was because it would be harder.
😐
Of course you WOULD think the former because it suits you.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneAhem, RANDOM split second intervals... Which means two beams were firing at split second intervals randomly... A double tap? That's no automatic firing rate.
They were coming at him at split second intervals, so yeah thats like a machine gun.
And once again, Steve able to block one of these, or use both hands to block both is not remotely comparable to what Elektra did.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone😐
Energy Beam >>> bullets
Tony Stark Robot >>> Mercenaries
Like.... talking... to.... a..... wall.......
Your ad nauseum isn't helping you here.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneI know you don't care, that's why you're like talking to a wall, you don't care WHAT you have to ignore when you're wrong.
Dont care its still a better feat, provide something better.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So let me get this straight right you want to moan about Cap using a gauntlet to block lasers but you're using an example of her using a whole human being? Wow. 🤨That feat is in no way comparable the beams werent coming at her in rapid sucession either.
God you're dumb.... For one, at no point have I complained... that's something you do when your mom makes you eat your veggies before dessert.
Two, Elektra having to lift and move a human shield that weighs somewhere between 150-200 pounds to block incoming fire, is far more impressive than Cap using a glove BUT for different reasons than her Sai work ALSO being more impressive than Cap using a glove to block concussive blasts.
At any rate, I'm simply using those feats to demonstrate to you're thick ass skull that this notion of "beams>>>>Blah Blah" means quite little against someone who has also negotiated nondescript beams as well.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
😐
For one.. that's not a rebuttle to what I told you... And secondly, I fail to see just WHAT you think this proves when Elektra's on her last leg throughout this entire story arc having been injured and tortured. The night nurse was shocked she was even up and able to jump out of a window in her condition. So that was a nice FAIL of EPIC proportions there... good job zone! thumbsup Not like you have any credability anyway, no need to start setting up those expectations now eh?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Great I understand that.Energy Beams >>> Bullets
TS Robot >>> Trained Mercenary
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Are you serioulsy trying to tell me that you've never seen gambit block machine gunfire with a staff?
😐
i've seen Gambit block gun-fire with his bo staff, but I'd like to see what feat you're reffering to.... Scans!
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneThen hurry! Go find them!
Well at any rate during the Infinite war an evil version of Gambit was blocking gunfire from policeman from different angles, this was in a Nomad issue. They werent using machine guns but there were several of them. Im sure there are other examples.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneBecause Wolverine is also inhumanly fast, and has vast more experience and skill in h2h than Gambit does.
Er because Gambit got completely owned by Wolverine in h2h so blocking bullets with a sai dont automatically mean a goddamn thing.
No it doesn't automatically mean a goddamned thing... other than her hand speed being superior to Cap's own.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNice tangent... too bad it didn't help your ass trying to compare Cap's hand speed to Elektra's...
Yeah I know because being able to run fast isnt going to help Cap lung at Elektra quickly and move backwards out of the way. Running speed can be applied to h2h.
Now the simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to comparisons that are quantifiable between the two, or ABC logic, Elektra constantly outperforms Cap across the board...
She has had better feats against the Hand, Wolverine, a feral minded Wolverine, DD, Paladin, Taskmaster, and Punisher than Cap. She's mind read people like Wolverine and Stick, and has flat out mindwiped, and disillusioned Fury who himself has stalemated Cap in h2h combat, but she doesn't stand a chance against Cap huh?
Yeah...... right.....
Originally posted by jinzin
Now the simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to comparisons that are quantifiable between the two, or ABC logic, Elektra constantly outperforms Cap across the board...She has had better feats against the Hand, Wolverine, a feral minded Wolverine, DD, Paladin, Taskmaster, and Punisher than Cap. She's mind read people like Wolverine and Stick, and has flat out mindwiped, and disillusioned Fury who himself has stalemated Cap in h2h combat, but she doesn't stand a chance against Cap huh?
Yeah...... right.....
Lets agree to disagree. In my opinion Cap takes her down
Originally posted by jinzin
Now the simple fact of the matter is that when it comes to comparisons that are quantifiable between the two, or ABC logic, Elektra constantly outperforms Cap across the board...She has had better feats against the Hand, Wolverine, a feral minded Wolverine, DD, Paladin, Taskmaster, and Punisher than Cap. She's mind read people like Wolverine and Stick, and has flat out mindwiped, and disillusioned Fury who himself has stalemated Cap in h2h combat, but she doesn't stand a chance against Cap huh?
Yeah...... right.....
Jin, i know you're arguing the pros for Elektra, and i guess i can deduce that you think she'll take the encounter in the OP, but i don't think ive actually seen you give an opinion ON the OP in these pages.
Originally posted by Juk3n
Jin, i know you're arguing the pros for Elektra, and i guess i can deduce that you think she'll take the encounter in the OP, but i don't think ive actually seen you give an opinion ON the OP in these pages.
Yeah, I haven't given it yet.
Hmmm okay here's how I look at it.
They are roughly even in fighting ability.
Both are tanks in durability.
Elektra has a slight advantage in martial skill.
Cap has an advantage in experience
Cap has an advantage in running speed.
Elektra in hand speed.
Cap's stronger.
Elektra's got an advantage in mental/energy manipulation.
Both have about the same fighting intelligence.
Leaving Cap with the only obvious advantage being in stamina, but alternatively we've seen Elektra battle at optimum levels for up to 6 hours without getting tired and who knows how long she could have kept that up.
In the weapons fight I think Elektra will take the slight or heavy majority, though I'll be honest, saying slight sounds a lot better than heavy, her performance against Wolverine leads me to think a heavy majority isn't unthinkable.
I think that her two major advantages in the weapons fight will be her ability to possibly read out Cap's strategy, which IM already proved can be deabilitating in combat for Steve, and would render his usual shield tosses far less effective. Also as was pointed out earlier, she actually HAS a killer instinct. She won't hold back for Cap's sake if she deems the situation necessary, and when it comes down to two opponents as skilled and roughly comparible as these two, that moments lack of hesitation as well as bloodlust could and probably would make all the difference between them.. It's far more of a convincing advantage than say Cap's moderate strength advantage is to him...
In straight h2h, Elektra would probably lose. When it comes down to it Cap's damage soak is so high, and every attack Elektra launches will leave her open for a counter strike. Cap just has to whether the storm and land his shots as she's trying to land hers. She isn't outslugging him and he's good enough to keep up with her skill without going down to a nerve strike haphazardly. Cap would probably take a high majority here.
