Originally posted by jinzin
Again, in Marvel if it's a concussive blast it doesn't translate to being a laser, ask Bishop.Or... non lethal.... given they were made of concussive beams for training....
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Of course you WOULD think the former because it suits you.
Ahem, RANDOM split second intervals... Which means two beams were firing at split second intervals randomly... A double tap? That's no automatic firing rate.
And once again, Steve able to block one of these, or use both hands to block both is not remotely comparable to what Elektra did.
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Like.... talking... to.... a..... wall.......
Your ad nauseum isn't helping you here.
I know you don't care, that's why you're like talking to a wall, you don't care WHAT you have to ignore when you're wrong.
Using a human body to block fire like that is vastly more impressive than using a glove. And concussive force blasts=/? lasers anyways so you hardly have a case that dictates me to find something better cream soda....🤨
God you're dumb.... For one, at no point have I complained... that's something you do when your mom makes you eat your veggies before dessert.
Two, Elektra having to lift and move a human shield that weighs somewhere between 150-200 pounds to block incoming fire, is far more impressive than Cap using a glove BUT for different reasons than her Sai work ALSO being more impressive than Cap using a glove to block concussive blasts.At any rate, I'm simply using those feats to demonstrate to you're thick ass skull that this notion of "beams>>>>Blah Blah" means quite little against someone who has also negotiated nondescript beams as well.
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For one.. that's not a rebuttle to what I told you... And secondly, I fail to see just WHAT you think this proves when Elektra's on her last leg throughout this entire story arc having been injured and tortured. The night nurse was shocked she was even up and able to jump out of a window in her condition. So that was a nice FAIL of EPIC proportions there... good job zone! thumbsup Not like you have any credability anyway, no need to start setting up those expectations now eh?
Clearly you don't if you think repeating your same crap over and over again is adding anything to this debate.
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i've seen Gambit block gun-fire with his bo staff, but I'd like to see what feat you're reffering to.... Scans!Then hurry! Go find them!
Because Wolverine is also inhumanly fast, and has vast more experience and skill in h2h than Gambit does.
No it doesn't automatically mean a goddamned thing... other than her hand speed being superior to Cap's own.
Nice tangent... too bad it didn't help your ass trying to compare Cap's hand speed to Elektra's...
Forget it gone completely out of hand and im just wasting my time here. Again its not that I cant respond to your post but its just not worth my while. Also your insults have gone completely out of hand.
Originally posted by jinzin
What I said was that she mindrapes on a consistent basis. When I brought up the fact that she was able to read out Logan's thoughts it was to demonstrate her ability to read someone with level 9 psy-blockers, and his own mental defenses which are usually too difficult to outright penetrate, it was to make the point of her mindraping ability more effective, not to say she's mindraped Logan.... At least not in the sense that she gave him illusions or took his body over. Though now that we're discussing this, having your thoughts read and played against you could certainly be considered some form of mindrape too.
Invasion of the mind yes. Not the type of mind rape at hand either way it doens't play much a part against her top A list rivals anyhow.
Read above. Mind reading is one of the primary reasons people give the edge to Mr. X. And when it comes to A-listers she's plucked thoughts out of Wolverine and Stick's heads. 😐
Again, Cap's mental defensive are better than theirs? I don't think so.
Well first of all Cap's mind is enhanced unlike Wolverines. Second my point still stands at least she ain't mind raping. Maybe she'll be able to read there moves but again Logan fought another telepath that could read minds IIRC in the Logan/Cap min and defeated her handily. So that doesn't always help as it didn't help Mr X the second time against Logan either. Sure it will benefit Elektra for sure but it won't guarantee her victory or majority IMO. Unless you have a fight with and against either Shang, Ironfist, or Cap that I am unaware of were she does have a victory to prove me other wise.
At this point it's worth noting she's dissapeared in broad daylight in front of Wolverine and DD... 😐
Impressive. DD has a feat were he moves as a blur in front of her. Plus she didn't know who it was while DD already knew who she was despite hidden in a trench coat IIRC.
Well now you're going on your own tangent... but okay....You see, I don't need to find a statement that calls Elektra enhanced when everything she does is outside the scope of human ability even for a comic human.
She deflected a bullet with her barehand for godsakes... It shouldn't be that hard to figure out on your own.
Indeed. But that could be done with her illusions against the weak minded as you say she can do. The reason you can't find statements is because she's not jinzin. None of her feats are out of the scope of comic book humans. By that logic Batman is superhuman since his feats look outside scope but even he isn't nor Daredevil who you once said is arguable for superhuman strength. And his strength feats are better then Elektra. But Daredevil isn't superhuman. Not one bit jinzin. And just the same for Elektra she is not superhuman in speed or strength as you used to claim.
Considering she's read his mind before.. no it doesn't.At this point I'm going to assume you think of mindrape under the terms of illusions and mind control. Again, I've never tried to make the claim she would do this to Cap, but reading his mind shouldn't prove too difficult.
Fair enough but that doesn't always help turn the tide. Especially since Cap is enhanced unlike Elektra.
She played with Shang so I fail to see where you think she would want to use her Tp abilities on him. And she's curbed DD without them. 😕
You act like she failed in spite of trying.
She's gain the advantage on DD with traps and brick walls. Bullseye has gotten the advantage on her. And she has gotton the advantage on Bullseye. Lets not pretend her mind reading always gives her and edge. Even the lady was that trained by Stick made Elektra look like an amateur in volume 2. Elektra even called her sensei she was that good.
No. In point of fact. Steve has never done something on par of blocking bullet after bullet, from an automatic weapon, individually, using a tool with the surface area of a quarter inch.Beams>Bullets? Sure... and blocking them one a time or dodging them are nice feats, and easily above blocking bullets one at a time or dodging bullets... but sadly Steve's best feats against bullets aren't as impressive as that..
It's not an opinion, there are no feats under Cap belt that show comparible hand speed and accuracy to that feat.
Again, when all over feats are at the top of the street level you really don't need statements... This is just another feats>stats
And yes, most top level streets "play in bullets", but not many of them show the hand speed to block those bullets one after the other coming from machine gun fire... if you have a hard time understanding what seperates that feat from the standard, bounding around a room full of gun fire stuff... then you're beyond all help.
Ill just sum all that together of your quotes since its about the same thing. Blocking mulitipile bullets is not that impressive jinzin. Heck even Zaran did it in mid jump against 4 men.
OH my god!!! Zaran must be Superhuman in speed..........LOL. But no and if you can't distinguish a flashy scene from what they actually are through the majority of there carrerr or more importantly through direct comparisons of there peers. Then you really don't grasp in how to rank or compare characters. You do know Zaran ran away from Captain America don't you? You do know that Zaran at the time even had help from Matchete as well don't you? Seriosly blocking bullets isn't a superhuman act in comics.
Heck Cap has outrun bullets in one scene and in another. So forget just hand movement but total body movement. No Elektras feats don't compare. Even Cap's crazier feat of blocking beams is still better then him running faster then bullets. You do know Cap played in beams under zero gravity. There was like 11 or more beams shooting at him. Sure one could argue he dodged one of there aim but all 11. I'm talking the space wasn't even that big and they had a tracking guiding them as well. Sure Cap had his shield but in some of the panels he didn't even use the shield.
And at one point he even threw the shield and still avoided the beams. Seriously jinzin. Funny thing is. Even though Cap's speed feats are better. Thats not what really justifies him to be faster. His direct comparisons against his peers is what helps really displays this and his statements of being enhanced to the peak of human potential.
Plus her Elekra its hard to tell by the art work but she's going toe to toe with her evil half in a sai throwing fight and gets hit. So even she gets hit by much slower things then bullets.
Funny thing is before Daredevil was attempting to parry bullets as well. Elektra moved out of the way and said its to risky. It all depends on the writer on how they portray bullets or make bullets job. Either way your focusing to much on that feat and clamoring superhuman speed. And if that example alone isn't good enough just look at all the times she's been hit by slower things. I can't believe I have to even point this out. She's even been hit by chains on different occasions.
Oh my god these chain strikes must being going faster then bullets.
And were you always clamoring how impressive it was for Elektra beating a class 10 Silver Samurai. Well even in that scan while yes they do say he's class 10. They say Elektra is athlete.....LOL.
Elektra is not superhuman in speed nor strength which is what you used to say. So only you can quote bios for other characters but not fore Elektra. Give me a break.
Originally posted by jinzin
BASED. ON. WHAT? 😐Perhaps you would like to outright prove that Logan was in a berserker rage because from all appearances the only reason Cap came to that conclusion was because Logan was aggressively attacking him....
Cap hadn't even seen Logan in a berserker rage yet...
"he's supposed to be unstoppable in a berserker rage"... Supposed to? Yeah exactly! Because up to that point Cap had never seen Logan in one. like Hammer said, when even Wolverine's teammates can't distinguish the difference between Logan pissed and Logan in a B-rage, how the hell is Cap an authority on the matter? Oh wait he isn't, you just decided he was because that's what suits your ridiculous argument that Wolverine WAS in a B-rage when he was anything but.
What? Do you forget all of Logan's past encounters with Captain America. He's had more then one jinzin and Cap's does his job and reads files on practically everyone. Did he call Logan berserk in any of those past encounters from his past. There's a reason he does so and this one and not in the other ones jin. Showing that Cap indeed knows what he knows and can distinguish between berserk Wolverine and Wolverine. This isn't too hard to grasp. You opinon <<<< then the books.
Uhh..... No you didn't... 😕What you proved was that CAP SUPPOSED he was berserk... That doesn't automatically translate to fact does it.
And... he wasn't... anyways...
Wolverine responded to orders from his peers to attack and to stop attacking. He also fails to outright overpower Cap in his "supposed berserker rage" which he would EASILY do in a real one.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1404ocd13.jpg?t=1246114130
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/622/captainamerica5pz3.jpg
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1404ocd18.jpg?t=1246114306
Cap holding him down is a testament to his own SSS strength. Cap's supposed. Show me a quote were it saids suppose other wise your opinion lacks any real proof other then your opinion.
Wolverine in his state wasn't even smart enough to figure out how to escape brick prison with his Adamantium claws... It's been noted and demonstrated repeatedly that Wolverine's quite intelligent while berserker.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd13.jpg?t=1246114414And once again responding to Moonstone's commands, able to process orders and follow them.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd14.jpg?t=1246114677
Finally he was simply mindconrolled and out of his right mind... as it was also noted.
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/CaptainAmericav1407ocd18.jpg?t=1246115149You want to say it wasn't outright stated he had the mind of a wolf? That's fine and fair, but what you can't argue is... well... anything else that you're arguing here.. He certainly wasn't in a B-rage and you need to note that it was referenced at least once that Logan was suited for the werewolf community.
Exactly no statement of ware wolf mind and no proof just your opinion. Wolverine is ferocious thats why the like him. To have the mind of a wolf jinzin they must turn you into a wolf at least in this series. They tried that with Logan and failed.
Notice the wolfs can't talk and Cap can't even talk right.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5527/capamericav140603roughe.jpg
Notice none the one's with a wolf mind can talk. Cap can at least make out some words but even his have RRRRRRRRRRRRR in them. But then again Cap has the SSS and couldn't be controlled like them.
Logan can actually talk.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1961/capamericav140612roughe.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6944/capamericav140613roughe.jpg
And unlike the other wolfs he wasn't transformed to have a wolfs body or wolfs mind. The burden of proof is only you to show a statement that he had a wolfs mind. No were did I deny he wasn't mind controlled.
Him not opening or slicing the door was for plot. I've seen Logan not break hand cuffs for stories plot. Doesn't mean Logan isn't that strong to break them jin.
Yep. Just like Moonstone huh?
Because Moonstone had his aggression levels pushed up to an extreme, and constantly walked around barely able to a communicate more than a growl, responded to orders from all of his peers, and became monumentally unintelligent. Yup that's JUST LIKE how Moonstone was.....Oh wait, no it wasn't....
They were both mind controlled.. that's where the similarities end.
Accept Logan talked as seen above when he need to. He didn't care to other wise. Yes both were mind controlled. And neither were stated to have a mind of the a wolf. To have the mind of a wolf you must be transformed like a wolf. Cap was thats why his thoughts were weird and talking were off. But thats because he was transformed into one of them. Wolverine and Moonstone were not. You want to prove Logan had a wolf mind then prove it with actuall evidence other then your opinion.
Unable to defend himself. Actually read jinzin.Gotta get shield in position must move(as he was interrupted by Moonstone). He was in position to defend himself. Wolverines not holding down his arms. You'll twist anything.
Accept Cap was not worried about Moonstone. He was worried about Logan. Since he was dealing with him. Plus Cap was trying to talk to Logan which is why he ended up in that position. All this is just your theory despite the circumstances that were shown. Either way this isn't a bad showing for Cap since even throughout the fight he was trying to talk to Logan. Point is Cap was ready to move his shield to block and then got cheap shotted by moonstone.......not Wolverine. Yeah Logan got him in a good pin. But thats not a win since Cap wasn't KO'ed or agreed he was helpless at that. On the contrary despite your opinion.
Yeah... clearly wrong about that one too.
Only if you ignore what said and shown sure.
It's quite relivent. Wolverine actually lost his first fight with Elektra before he knew who she was and before there was any holding back.. so it isn't the only reason she does well against him. Furthermore the insinuation that Logan's CIS is the only reason she does well against him insinuates Cap will fight more aggressively than Cap.. This... IS... ridiculous, and there's nothing else to say about that.She WAS reading his mind.... and DID vanish right infront of his face in broad daylight later on. [/B]
Yeah she better vanish away from Logan......LOL. Anyways Elektra own comments outweigh your own. There's nothing to indicate she can take Logan outside from the circumstances of there clashes and Logan holding back. According to Elektra anyways.
Originally posted by jinzin
Every ABC comparison between the two is to Elektra's favor. It certainly hurts your case and no he doesn't.
Your entitled to your opinion. But I disagree.
Doesn't traslate to being faster than Elektra.In a foot race? Okay.. doesn't look too much faster in their fights does he. And.... Doesn't traslate to being faster than Elektra.
Doesn't traslate to being faster than Elektra.
Again, I'm not talking about a foot race.
PSSHHYEAH right!
Again, Feats>Stats. You don't need it to be stated that Elektra has superhuman attributes to know that it's been displayed.
Ahh but Cap's feats and Stats>>>>> then Elektra feats. Feats are nice but direct comparisons are nicer. Plus your looking too much into her bullet feats which are not that impressive to begin with. You have to look at it. At the total sum of it all. Not just one feat separates her from her peers.
By that logic Batman, Daredevil have superhuman attributes. But they are not superhuman either. But then again why do I even bother since you used to say Elektra has superhuman strength and its debatable if she has it. Yeah...... sure.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Logan can actually talk.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1961/capamericav140612roughe.jpghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6944/capamericav140613roughe.jpg
That pretty much proves that he didnt have the mind of a werewolf. Its not even a stretch to say he was beserk but he was bloodlusted more than usual. I dont see why we have to have some detailed explanation as to why hes beserk.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Except where, you know it HAS, being able to read Wolvie's mind... in combat no less.... Sorry, but that shit matters.
Invasion of the mind yes. Not the type of mind rape at hand either way it doens't play much a part against her top A list rivals anyhow.
Originally posted by Daredevil1BWAHAHAHAHA! Are you seriously about to argue that Cap's mental defenses, are > Wolverines? SERIOUSLY?!?! Just how desperate are you here?
Well first of all Cap's mind is enhanced unlike Wolverines.
Originally posted by Daredevil1As does mine; her ability to use her telepathic abilities mid-combat MATTER in a fight and it's not something Cap can negotiate.
Second my point still stands at least she ain't mind raping. .
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Maybe she'll be able to read there moves but again Logan fought another telepath that could read minds IIRC in the Logan/Cap min and defeated her handily. So that doesn't always help as it didn't help Mr X the second time against Logan either.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Sure it will benefit Elektra for sure but it won't guarantee her victory or majority IMO. Unless you have a fight with and against either Shang, Ironfist, or Cap that I am unaware of were she does have a victory to prove me other wise.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Impressive. DD has a feat were he moves as a blur in front of her. Plus she didn't know who it was while DD already knew who she was despite hidden in a trench coat IIRC.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Unless it's stated that she's using illusions, you've really no reason to assume otherwise, you're assuming that the character can't do something based off your own preconcieved limitations. It's ridiculous. Uh, yes, her feats like, moving too fast to be recorded or moving too fast to be seen underwater are EASILY feats outside the scope of what her supposed peers have performed.
Indeed. But that could be done with her illusions against the weak minded as you say she can do. The reason you can't find statements is because she's not jinzin. None of her feats are out of the scope of comic book humans. By that logic Batman is superhuman since his feats look outside scope but even he isn't nor Daredevil who you once said is arguable for superhuman strength. And his strength feats are better then Elektra. But Daredevil isn't superhuman. Not one bit jinzin. And just the same for Elektra she is not superhuman in speed or strength as you used to claim.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Again, you throw about a useless term denying the feats of their legitimate credability...pffft.
Fair enough but that doesn't always help turn the tide. Especially since Cap is enhanced unlike Elektra.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Oh bull SHIT she was handling him even before that, and has done so later with ease as well. we both know this.
She's gain the advantage on DD with traps and brick walls.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Again, all the parties you mentioned here have the same types of training from the chaste, and the Hand, nothing that Cap has even remotely come across on panel to date.
Bullseye has gotten the advantage on her. And she has gotton the advantage on Bullseye. Lets not pretend her mind reading always gives her and edge. Even the lady was that trained by Stick made Elektra look like an amateur in volume 2. Elektra even called her sensei she was that good.
Originally posted by Daredevil1If it was Cap blocking those bullets you may have a point, if Elektra's feats fell a far cry short on the majority compared to the bullet block you might have a point, or if she was outperformed by those "peers" you might have a point, but since none of this is the case almost you entire response here contributes nothing real to the ongoing debate.
Ill just sum all that together of your quotes since its about the same thing. Blocking mulitipile bullets is not that impressive jinzin. Heck even Zaran did it in mid jump against 4 men.
OH my god!!! Zaran must be Superhuman in speed..........LOL. But no and if you can't distinguish a flashy scene from what they actually are through the majority of there carrerr or more importantly through direct comparisons of there peers. Then you really don't grasp in how to rank or compare characters. You do know Zaran ran away from Captain America don't you? You do know that Zaran at the time even had help from Matchete as well don't you? Seriosly blocking bullets isn't a superhuman act in comics.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Again I have no doubt about Cap's footrace/pouncing speed.. He's whizzed by DD with ease. It's not the same as handfighting speed which hasn't been as impressive. Yes Cap's zero grav feat is ridiculously fast...
Heck Cap has outrun bullets in one scene and in another. So forget just hand movement but total body movement. No Elektras feats don't compare. Even Cap's crazier feat of blocking beams is still better then him running faster then bullets. You do know Cap played in beams under zero gravity. There was like 11 or more beams shooting at him. Sure one could argue he dodged one of there aim but all 11. I'm talking the space wasn't even that big and they had a tracking guiding them as well. Sure Cap had his shield but in some of the panels he didn't even use the shield.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Yes, Cap's pouncing running speed has proven better, his zero grav agility has proven superior, not his hand 2 hand fighting speed which was of course the point....
And at one point he even threw the shield and still avoided the beams. Seriously jinzin. Funny thing is. Even though Cap's speed feats are better. Thats not what really justifies him to be faster. His direct comparisons against his peers is what helps really displays this and his statements of being enhanced to the peak of human potential.
And yet Elektra's isn't.. how convenient.
Originally posted by Daredevil1😂
Plus her Elekra its hard to tell by the art work but she's going toe to toe with her evil half in a sai throwing fight and gets hit. So even she gets hit by much slower things then bullets.Funny thing is before Daredevil was attempting to parry bullets as well. Elektra moved out of the way and said its to risky. It all depends on the writer on how they portray bullets or make bullets job. Either way your focusing to much on that feat and clamoring superhuman speed. And if that example alone isn't good enough just look at all the times she's been hit by slower things. I can't believe I have to even point this out. She's even been hit by chains on different occasions.
If you're argument is really defecting at this point to "she's been hit by slower things" you need to check yourself... You know that applies to Cap to and it's not a legitimate argument here.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Yet it's not in the books.. in NONE of their documented encounters before this fight had Wolverine EVER gone berserker rage in front of Cap. Cap's files, would be limited to what SHIELD and the AVENGERS had to offer, and even what the X-MEN had of him at this time was drastically ambiguous and incomplete.....
What? Do you forget all of Logan's past encounters with Captain America. He's had more then one jinzin and Cap's does his job and reads files on practically everyone. Did he call Logan berserk in any of those past encounters from his past. There's a reason he does so and this one and not in the other ones jin. Showing that Cap indeed knows what he knows and can distinguish between berserk Wolverine and Wolverine. This isn't too hard to grasp. You opinon <<<< then the books [B]
What?! Wolverine a mystery?! Go on! No really!
The fact that Cap is SUPPOSING that Wolverine's in a B-rage shouldn't be too hard to grasp... bottem line, Wolverine was aggressive and mind controlled, neither of those factor out to being = to a berserker rage... period.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
[B]Cap holding him down is a testament to his own SSS strength. Cap's supposed. Show me a quote were it saids suppose other wise your opinion lacks any real proof other then your opinion. [B]
It's in the very scan you posted.
"Wolverine's supposed to be unstoppable in a berserker rage", meaning of course that he doesn't know with any degree of certainty one way or the other because he DOESN'T KNOW... And... you ARE aware of course Wolverine has overpowered easily, strict superhumans while B-raged right?
Originally posted by Daredevil1
[B]Exactly no statement of ware wolf mind and no proof just your opinion. Wolverine is ferocious thats why the like him. To have the mind of a wolf jinzin they must turn you into a wolf at least in this series. They tried that with Logan and failed.
[B]
You're getting WAY too hung up on semantics at this point. You may be right, Wolverine MAY not have had the exact mind of a werewolf.... but.. he was acting just like them, he was treated just like them, and he was referenced to be suited to be amonst them.....
You can get hung up on details at this point but once again, bottem line: Wolverine was mind controlled, overly agressive, had his intelligence dimmed down, and was running around attacking people and taking orders just like all the other werewolves in that town.... No point in trying to make him out to be in a real Wolverine berserker rage when he wasn't.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Notice they ARE genetically altered from a human state right?
[B]Notice the wolfs can't talk and Cap can't even talk right.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5527/capamericav140603roughe.jpg
Notice none the one's with a wolf mind can talk. Cap can at least make out some words but even his have RRRRRRRRRRRRR in them. But then again Cap has the SSS and couldn't be controlled like them. [B]
Originally posted by Daredevil1
[B]Logan can actually talk.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1961/capamericav140612roughe.jpghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6944/capamericav140613roughe.jpg [B]
Originally posted by Daredevil1I defect to what I already said above.
[B]And unlike the other wolfs he wasn't transformed to have a wolfs body or wolfs mind. The burden of proof is only you to show a statement that he had a wolfs mind. No were did I deny he wasn't mind controlled. [B]
Originally posted by Daredevil1What when he's not trying to break them? or weakened? or wounded? or surrounded and outgunned?
[B] Him not opening or slicing the door was for plot. I've seen Logan not break hand cuffs for stories plot. Doesn't mean Logan isn't that strong to break them jin. [B]
Yeah, a bit different, then being just too stupid.. which was the case... it's a clear display of his intelligence under the influence of the mindcontrol as if everything else wasn't enough... it wasn't a real B-rage, get over it.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
[B] Accept Logan talked as seen above when he need to. He didn't care to other wise. Yes both were mind controlled. And neither were stated to have a mind of the a wolf. To have the mind of a wolf you must be transformed like a wolf. Cap was thats why his thoughts were weird and talking were off. But thats because he was transformed into one of them. Wolverine and Moonstone were not. You want to prove Logan had a wolf mind then prove it with actuall evidence other then your opinion. [B]
Again, why ignore what WAS stated and shown in the storyline just so you can assume you're right because it was written out for you in crayon?
Wolverine acted and was treated like a werewolf.. Moonstone, not so much.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Cap was mentally ready to move his shield to block, physically he was incapable has Moonstone prove, who announced his presence. If Cap was able to legitimately defend himself he would have.
[B] Accept Cap was not worried about Moonstone. He was worried about Logan. Since he was dealing with him. Plus Cap was trying to talk to Logan which is why he ended up in that position. All this is just your theory despite the circumstances that were shown. Either way this isn't a bad showing for Cap since even throughout the fight he was trying to talk to Logan. Point is Cap was ready to move his shield to block and then got cheap shotted by moonstone.......not Wolverine. Yeah Logan got him in a good pin. But thats not a win since Cap wasn't KO'ed or agreed he was helpless at that. On the contrary despite your opinion.
I never said it was a bad showing, I said that Wolverine wasn't in a B-rage.. He's wasn't.
And that Cap lost... He did.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Only if I follow your lead perhaps.
Only if you ignore what said and shown sure.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Again, AFTER Logan has come to understand who she is and, well, bone her.... Again, they've fought before this, and it didn't go any better for him. 😐
Yeah she better vanish away from Logan......LOL. Anyways Elektra own comments outweigh your own. There's nothing to indicate she can take Logan outside from the circumstances of there clashes and Logan holding back. According to Elektra anyways.
Originally posted by Daredevil1It's not an opinion.
Your entitled to your opinion. But I disagree.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Some of his feats for some of his attributes, and not others, the same applies to her.
Ahh but Cap's feats and Stats>>>>> then Elektra feats. Feats are nice but direct comparisons are nicer. Plus your looking too much into her bullet feats which are not that impressive to begin with. You have to look at it. At the total sum of it all. Not just one feat separates her from her peers.By that logic Batman, Daredevil have superhuman attributes. But they are not superhuman either. But then again why do I even bother since you used to say Elektra has superhuman strength and its debatable if she has it. Yeah...... sure.
It should damned well be debateable that she has it.
Electra has been taught by the Hand, which wasn't a joke, gave Wolverine and Daredevil Fits. Unfortunately, Cap fought them back during their early incarnation in the 40's with Wolvie. Cap has fought vastly superior strengthed beings, Hulk included in his victories... He knows every style of martial arts around, from his decades of combat, peacetime bouts and such, just like Batman did in his early career. Also, Cap will learn how to counter the martial style if he sees it. He has tussled with Elektra before, usually when she is in 'possessed mode'. Cap wouldn't try to kill her, but would know enough maneuvers to have her subdued before she took him out. His added stregth and stamina would blow away anyonewho wanted to spar with him, but he never rubs it in, and she may leave mad, but Elektra would respect Cap afterwards.
Originally posted by jinzin
Except where, you know it HAS, being able to read Wolvie's mind... in combat no less.... Sorry, but that shit matters.
Sure it does but not to the point the it proves her greater then her opponents.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Are you seriously about to argue that Cap's mental defenses, are > Wolverines? SERIOUSLY?!?! Just how desperate are you here?
Desperate. Cap's mind is enhanced. There's not that much on desperation.
As does mine; her ability to use her telepathic abilities mid-combat MATTER in a fight and it's not something Cap can negotiate.
eh. Knowing what Cap's going to do and actually doing something about it are two different things. Other wise she'd never get hit. Not about negotiation but direct comparison's withing her peer fights. And she's she done well for herself but then again so has Cap who has the stats advantage.
For one, since when did whats her face become as skilled as Elektra in h2h without the tp?
And two, it didn't help X, when Logan went into a berserker rage.... which is altogether different from fighting Logan normally and you know that.
Yes it is different. But just shows that its isn't the be all and end all for a fight.
🤨 Once again, she hasn't fought these people, the people she HAS fought on this level she's handled.... your defection to this deceptive premise is sad at best.
And you would be wrong. She did fight Shang Chi and could not dominate him or prove to be his superior. If anything they were shown to be equals. It is sad to claim other wise.
And? It doesn't take away from what Elektra has done....
Nor from them.
Unless it's stated that she's using illusions, you've really no reason to assume otherwise, you're assuming that the character can't do something based off your own preconcieved limitations. It's ridiculous. Uh, yes, her feats like, moving too fast to be recorded or moving too fast to be seen underwater are EASILY feats outside the scope of what her supposed peers have performed.
Right I'm sure she's bullet proof. Just like she's superhuman.🙄 Oh wait. She's not.
Again, you throw about a useless term denying the feats of their legitimate credability...pffft.
Yeah. Because her physcial stats are enhanced to superhuman levels. I clearly missed the issue of her in Operation Rebirth. Issue in volume 0 on page 74. And lets not forget her power up with the power brockers later enhancement in annual 75.....LOL
Oh bull SHIT she was handling him even before that, and has done so later with ease as well. we both know this.
Sure......sure.
Not. 🙂
Again, all the parties you mentioned here have the same types of training from the chaste, and the Hand, nothing that Cap has even remotely come across on panel to date.
Bullseye was not trained from the chaste or hand to my knowledge. Daredevil was but even he acknowledges Cap as being one of the Earths best.
If it was Cap blocking those bullets you may have a point, if Elektra's feats fell a far cry short on the majority compared to the bullet block you might have a point, or if she was outperformed by those "peers" you might have a point, but since none of this is the case almost you entire response here contributes nothing real to the ongoing debate.
Cap has better feats then that. So its a moot point of yours. Point is Zaran is not superhuman just because he blocks multiple bullets. Zaran got treated like a joke against Wolverine and Captain America. He even assistants from Machete and they still ran away from Cap. Bottom line blocking bullets isn't that impressive or the need to be superhuman to do it in comics is not required. So Elektra being superhuman in speed logic gets thrown out the window.
Again I have no doubt about Cap's footrace/pouncing speed.. He's whizzed by DD with ease. It's not the same as handfighting speed which hasn't been as impressive. Yes Cap's zero grav feat is ridiculously fast...
Hand fighting speed. Cap's hands were able to catch Danny rand's strike. You know the guy that can catch bullets and parry 50 fletchetes. Doesn't change the fact that parrying bullets isn't superior to his own speed. Its any impressive feat that many skilled athletes in comics can do.
Yes, Cap's pouncing running speed has proven better, his zero grav agility has proven superior, not his hand 2 hand fighting speed which was of course the point....And yet Elektra's isn't.. how convenient.
Elektra is impressive. But just not superhuman which is what you've been trying to make out.
😂If you're argument is really defecting at this point to "she's been hit by slower things" you need to check yourself... You know that applies to Cap to and it's not a legitimate argument here.
Exactly. Both Cap and her have been hit by much slower things then bullets. Like punches, kicks, etc etc. Its more important direct comparisons then things like blocking bullets or beams under zero gravity. But with direct comparisons at least we know the majority are awed by Cap's speed and strength. And they should be since he is enhanced. While Elektra on the other hand is not. Her feats by logic should be superhuman but then again so should characters like Zaran, Batman or Batgirl. But there not. Elektra is not superhuman in her physical stats.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yet it's not in the books.. in NONE of their documented encounters before this fight had Wolverine EVER gone berserker rage in front of Cap. Cap's files, would be limited to what SHIELD and the AVENGERS had to offer, and even what the X-MEN had of him at this time was drastically ambiguous and incomplete.....What?! Wolverine a mystery?! Go on! No really!
The fact that Cap is SUPPOSING that Wolverine's in a B-rage shouldn't be too hard to grasp... bottem line, Wolverine was aggressive and mind controlled, neither of those factor out to being = to a berserker rage... period.
Accept Cap statement is still greater then what you think. Your right Cap's hasn't seen it in there encounters but thats why he knew those times he wasn't in berserk to make that distinction. You wanted Logan so badly to have a wolf mind to try and derail it so he couldn't have been berserk. But he didn't have the mind of a wolf so no sale.
😐It's in the very scan you posted.
"Wolverine's supposed to be unstoppable in a berserker rage", meaning of course that he doesn't know with any degree of certainty one way or the other because he DOESN'T KNOW... And... you ARE aware of course Wolverine has overpowered easily, strict superhumans while B-raged right?
Yeah he supposed to be "unstoppable". Cap's not sure on that part but he knows he's in a berserker rage. I know of Logan's high feats Cap has his own and he held down Logan at that.
You're getting WAY too hung up on semantics at this point. You may be right, Wolverine MAY not have had the exact mind of a werewolf.... but.. he was acting just like them, he was treated just like them, and he was referenced to be suited to be amonst them.....
You can get hung up on details at this point but once again, bottem line: Wolverine was mind controlled, overly agressive, had his intelligence dimmed down, and was running around attacking people and taking orders just like all the other werewolves in that town.... No point in trying to make him out to be in a real Wolverine berserker rage when he wasn't.
Do you have proof that his berserker rage wasn't a berserker rage. It was called that in the book and that has precedents over any theory you can think of. Yes he was mind controlled but he wasn't a wolf and he could talk unlike the wolves. Now if you have a statement from the book saying the mind control doesn't allow Wolverine to go into berserk. You might have a point. But lets face it you don't.
Notice they ARE genetically altered from a human state right?
Humans can be changed unless they have some fancy healing factor.
As you displayed Logan wasn't altered into a werewolf.. Cap could talk a as a werewolf, no reason to think it would be harder for Wolverine.
Yes. But Cap was changed into a wolf and even talked funny with RRRR's and such. Wasn't Logan changed into a wolf? Did Logan talk funny with lots of repeated letters in his words?
I defect to what I already said above.
uh huh.
What when he's not trying to break them? or weakened? or wounded? or surrounded and outgunned?
Yeah, a bit different, then being just too stupid.. which was the case... it's a clear display of his intelligence under the influence of the mindcontrol as if everything else wasn't enough... it wasn't a real B-rage, get over it.
I'll wait for the book to say that. Not you since you lack proof.
Again, why ignore what WAS stated and shown in the storyline just so you can assume you're right because it was written out for you in crayon?Wolverine acted and was treated like a werewolf.. Moonstone, not so much.
But Wolverine didn't act like a wolf. He could talk unlike them and he wasn't turned into one of them. Yes he was mind controlled but thats it.
Cap was mentally ready to move his shield to block, physically he was incapable has Moonstone prove, who announced his presence. If Cap was able to legitimately defend himself he would have.
Yeah wasn't able to block Moonstone. Moonstone isn't Wolverine.
I never said it was a bad showing, I said that Wolverine wasn't in a B-rage.. He's wasn't.
And that Cap lost... He did.
Yet you haven't proven it by a true statement. Cap lost to a surprise attack from Moonstone. Agreed.
Again, AFTER Logan has come to understand who she is and, well, bone her.... Again, they've fought before this, and it didn't go any better for him. 😐
And according to Elektra why is that? But then again according to you she's superhuman.
Originally posted by Daredevil1To the point where it makes her able to negotiate them when they're on Wolverine's level...
Sure it does but not to the point the it proves her greater then her opponents.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Desperate. Cap's mind is enhanced. There's not that much on desperation.
If Cap's "enhanced" mind is somehow able to negotiate telepathy which can read Wolverine, I'd like to see it.
Originally posted by Daredevil1lol like she couldn't "do something about it"? She's done it with Wolverine! Nuff said.
eh. Knowing what Cap's going to do and actually doing something about it are two different things. Other wise she'd never get hit. Not about negotiation but direct comparison's withing her peer fights. And she's she done well for herself but then again so has Cap who has the stats advantage.
It IS about negotiation because until you prove that Cap's mental defenses are better than Logan's you can't even begin to make a case in his defense here.
And LMAO 😆
Did you just try to compare Cap and Elektra in their peer fights?
You must be joking. Elektra has outperformed Cap in EVERY peer to peer comparison between the two and usually under more impressive circumstances.... Sweet. 😐
Originally posted by Daredevil1🙄 Not if Cap goes into a Wolverine berserker rage apparently.
Yes it is different. But just shows that its isn't the be all and end all for a fight.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
And you would be wrong. She did fight Shang Chi and could not dominate him or prove to be his superior. If anything they were shown to be equals. It is sad to claim other wise.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Well, there you go. You've just shown how ignorant you're going to remain in spite of on panel evidence proving you wrong just because what she does doesn't fit with your preconcieved notions.
Right I'm sure she's bullet proof. Just like she's superhuman.🙄 Oh wait. She's not.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yeah. Because her physcial stats are enhanced to superhuman levels. I clearly missed the issue of her in Operation Rebirth. Issue in volume 0 on page 74. And lets not forget her power up with the power brockers later enhancement in annual 75.....LOL.
So basically a tangent to "nu-uh"... pffft this isn't even a real argument anymore.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Sure......sure.Not. 🙂
Just more "nu-uh" here.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Bullseye was not trained from the chaste or hand to my knowledge. Daredevil was but even he acknowledges Cap as being one of the Earths best.
Isn't that who gave him all the info on her when they had they're rematch?
Ok... and?
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Cap has better feats then that. So its a moot point of yours. Point is Zaran is not superhuman just because he blocks multiple bullets. Zaran got treated like a joke against Wolverine and Captain America. He even assistants from Machete and they still ran away from Cap. Bottom line blocking bullets isn't that impressive or the need to be superhuman to do it in comics is not required. So Elektra being superhuman in speed logic gets thrown out the window.
lol, no he doesn't... he has impressive speed feats all over the place, but nothing on that scale which is the problem. You're point was automatically invalidated the moment you acknowledged that it's a feat well outside the majority of what he does and can be viewed as nothing more than PIS... For Elektra it isn't. Elektra is consistently uber.
Originally posted by Daredevil1And yet Punisher could react to his movements... couldn't say the same for Elektra.
Hand fighting speed. Cap's hands were able to catch Danny rand's strike. You know the guy that can catch bullets and parry 50 fletchetes. Doesn't change the fact that parrying bullets isn't superior to his own speed. Its any impressive feat that many skilled athletes in comics can do.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Elektra is impressive. But just not superhuman which is what you've been trying to make out.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exactly. Both Cap and her have been hit by much slower things then bullets. Like punches, kicks, etc etc. Its more important direct comparisons then things like blocking bullets or beams under zero gravity. But with direct comparisons at least we know the majority are awed by Cap's speed and strength. And they should be since he is enhanced. While Elektra on the other hand is not. Her feats by logic should be superhuman but then again so should characters like Zaran, Batman or Batgirl. But there not. Elektra is not superhuman in her physical stats.
She's not a poster boy put in front of the world to make a statement. Most people aren't even aware of what she can do.... Awe? Wolverine has readily admitted just how impressed he is with Elektra's speed, and status, he's readily admitted defeat against her, and clearly thinks himself below her, Cap? Not so much.
