SIDIOUS 66Vader and Han Solo would beg to differ.
Sidious is the master at foreseeing. He will know what Bane is gonna do before he does it. Sidious will just suck Bane's life essence from him.
That was weird.
SIDIOUS 66... Are you on something?
Sidious: The avatar of darkness. The sith of unmatched power.
LightsnakeSo logically, once he is in control of it, he'd be able to use it better.
Thing is, Kun is less in control than the amulet there. The comic notes it 'nearly destroyed him,' and he himself says he could 'barely just direct it.'
LightsnakeAll he has to do, literally, is raise his arm. He doesn't even need to move, although he's clearly more than capable of moving, meaning that if somehow Bane manages to close the gap Kun can leap away while still firing.
It's not 'slow,' definitely not, but fast enough to catch a being of exceptional speed like Bane?
Lightsnake"Worth a damn."
Vader most certainly has taken people out with his force choke-just off the top of my head, Kento Marek..
And who've the Force-storms killed, again?
LightsnakeSo can telekinesis. Thing is, we've never seen anyone (maybe Marek?) redirect energy on this scale before. The problem for Bane is compounded by the fact that his orbalisks eat up dark side energy; if those amulet blasts are dark side energy, which seems likely considering they're essentially mainfestations of his amplified rage, the orbalisks would almost certainly engorge themselves on it as they did with Bane's lightning.
The issue here is neither of those techniques were limited to what are essentially rapid share energy pulses....energy can be redirected/dodged, etc.
That'd be game over for Bane.
LightsnakeNot really. Mace Windu, Obi-Wan/Anakin and Kas'im have handled both major forms of telekinesis (grip/throw).
It's different than the TK required for a force choke
LightsnakePoint stands. The fact that he's never used it on a noteworthy Force-sensitive opponent doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful against one.
or a giant space tearing storm
LightsnakeI said he might be able to evade or survive a hit from the first blast or two. Beyond that, the beams get too strong and the explosions get too big. Sitting there and letting the beams hit him isn't an option, as said above, so he has to run, and the time spent running is time Kun spends increasing his amulet's power.
I'm saying someone as fast as Bane could very well be able to dodge the blasts. We've seen Force users dodge very large, very encompassing attacks, including turbolasers, storms of blaster fire, missiles , etc.
Originally posted by Eminence
So logically, once he is in control of it, he'd be able to use it better.All he has to do, literally, is raise his arm. He doesn't even need to move, although he's clearly more than capable of moving, meaning that if somehow Bane manages to close the gap Kun can leap away while still firing.
this also assumes Kun is fast enough to escape from Bane if Bane manages to close the gap.
"Worth a damn."And who've the Force-storms killed, again?
So can telekinesis. Thing is, we've never seen anyone (maybe Marek?) redirect energy on this scale before.
The problem for Bane is compounded by the fact that his orbalisks eat up dark side energy; if those amulet blasts are dark side energy, which seems likely considering they're essentially mainfestations of his amplified rage, the orbalisks would almost certainly engorge themselves on it as they did with Bane's lightning.That'd be game over for Bane.
Not really. Mace Windu, Obi-Wan/Anakin and Kas'im have handled both major forms of telekinesis (grip/throw).
Point stands. The fact that he's never used it on a noteworthy Force-sensitive opponent doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful against one.
I said he might be able to evade or survive a hit from the first blast or two. Beyond that, the beams get too strong and the explosions get too big.
Sitting there and letting the beams hit him isn't an option, as said above, so he has to run, and the time spent running is time Kun spends increasing his amulet's power.
What in Kun's character even implies he'll sit there and fire away as opposed to pulling out his saber and engaging? Bane is, I think we can say, faster, physically stronger, more skilled with a saber and after the incident with Kas'im, less arrogant and a smarter fighter than Kun.
When do we see Kun perform a straight blast while leaping through the air? He still has to aim it.
He has to raise his arm, fire-and it's not exactly sure if this is instant or not- and then the energy has to reach Bane before he's dodged.
It's like saying all one has to do in the case of killing a Jedi with a turbolaser would be to pull the trigger.this also assumes Kun is fast enough to escape from Bane if Bane manages to close the gap.
Kun's hands are clearly glowing in one of the panels as he maneuvers around the Sith wyrm, indicating that he can tap into the power without actively shooting the blasts. Since there's no apparent "prep time" other than directing the blast (Which is as simple as simply pointing his arm) I don't see your concern here.
You're also missing out on the fact that the amulet increases his rage thousands of times over, meaning he's like "in the zone" Anakin Skywalker on performance enhancers. If his rage fuels his powers (Which, as a Dark Sider, it does), then it stands to reason that he's operating on a level of Force proficiency potentially much much higher than his opponent. This means his own Force-aided movements, senses, and even precognitive abilities are amped up beyond the normal "human" threshold. So the idea of Bane "rushing" Kun is kind of silly. Kun's clearly operating above and beyond his own considerable abilities, and those were powerful enough. In the duel with Sylvar, the blows were so strong, they could be heard kilometers away.
I don't see how this is relevant, Faunus. I'm not arguing for force storms in this topic, I didn't mention force storms, nobody in this fight uses them. I'll acknowledge the point, force storms have never been used on a singular opponent.
I don't recall ever using 'Force Storm GG' as an argument in combat, so this isn't relevant
He's talking about your earlier point, where you asserted that because the amulets hadn't been used on someone of Bane's level, that they would be ineffective because of lack of proof. Faunus brought up a valid point that Force storm has never been used on Luke before, are we to assume it could never destroy him?
This would assume Bane is polite enough to stand there and let someone blast him with them. I'm not denying it's very counterproductive to Bane's health to be hit with the blasts.
Considering that the initial blasts pretty much blow Massassi right away, Bane has to somehow tank these shots while getting closer, or reacting with his own Force powers. Building a case for that isn't easy, since Kun killed the majority of the beings in that temple in what appeared to be perhaps a few short minutes.
The strength of the beams only counts if it lands. And the explosions will only be an issue if they land so close to Bane to blow him aside.
Kun has shown on-panel the ability to blow up fleeing Massassi and engage with the deadly house-sized wyrm at close quarters. The idea that Kun couldn't land a direct hit or even a near-miss on Bane seems a little misplaced. Also, I don't seem to recall anywhere that Bane was privy to Kun's possession of such amulets. There's no mention I could find that Bane would even know what they hell they were until they were being spammed in his direction indiscriminately.
This focuses on, again, the unprovable assertion these beams are pure rapid fire and Kun being able to keep up with someone he has not proven to be on the same level of speed and ability as to land a blast before Bane reaches him.
See above. Kun actively uses them while maneuvering around the Sith wyrm, killing it and everything else in range. This amulet amplifies his anger and rage (and by extension his Force power) thousands of times. He literally punches through a Force spirit capable of great Force powers and destroys it.
Kun's level of implied proficiency and power is rather up there. I'm not saying Bane's a baby in comparison, but the proof that he can overcome an opponent such as Kun is lacking.
Also assuming Kun can get a blast off before Bane throws a force wave/crush/lightning storm, requiring defense. If Kun has to focus on throwing a blast out, that doesn't bode well for defense
The only time we see Kun defending against a Force attack is when Odan-Urr attempts to sever him from the Force, which miserably failed.
Given Bane's speed? What'll stop him from dodging while making it to Kun, or simply retaliating with TK after the first blast?What in Kun's character even implies he'll sit there and fire away as opposed to pulling out his saber and engaging? Bane is, I think we can say, faster, physically stronger, more skilled with a saber and after the incident with Kas'im, less arrogant and a smarter fighter than Kun.
Kun's reputed to be a master of the sword before he even leaves Vodo, and his skill improves greatly, to where he toys with the master shortly before destroying him. Bane's insane, and I think you have a valid point here - if Kun engages in saber combat, that would be potentially in Bane's favor. And it's not in-character to spam blasts repeatedly.
But.. orbalisks originate from Dxun, and Kun had access to Nadd's own lore. Nadd knew that orbalisks could absorb even a lightsaber blade and that they soak up dark energy. So it stands to reason Kun may potentially know to spam blasts instead of relying on his saber.
Lightsnake1) He absorbs several shots with the Force, and deflects the rest with his lightsaber.
Luke able to tank/redirect blasts from AT ATs?
2) Heavy blaster fire =/= Force blasts. The blaster bolts don't appear to be as powerful as the pulses to begin with, and they obviously don't double in power with every shot.
LightsnakePower, Lightsnake. The explosions we see, especially the one on the ceiling, are huge.
And what scale? At their largest, the blasts are hardly bigger than a human body. Don't make them out to be so much greater than they actually are.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Kun's hands are clearly glowing in one of the panels as he maneuvers around the Sith wyrm, indicating that he can tap into the power without actively shooting the blasts. Since there's no apparent "prep time" other than directing the blast (Which is as simple as simply pointing his arm) I don't see your concern here.
You're also missing out on the fact that the amulet increases his rage thousands of times over, meaning he's like "in the zone" Anakin Skywalker on performance enhancers.
If his rage fuels his powers (Which, as a Dark Sider, it does), then it stands to reason that he's operating on a level of Force proficiency potentially much much higher than his opponent.
This means his own Force-aided movements, senses, and even precognitive abilities are amped up beyond the normal "human" threshold. So the idea of Bane "rushing" Kun is kind of silly.
Kun's clearly operating above and beyond his own considerable abilities, and those were powerful enough. In the duel with Sylvar, the blows were so strong, they could be heard kilometers away.
He's talking about your earlier point, where you asserted that because the amulets hadn't been used on someone of Bane's level, that they would be ineffective because of lack of proof. Faunus brought up a valid point that Force storm has never been used on Luke before, are we to assume it could never destroy him?
Considering that the initial blasts pretty much blow Massassi right away, Bane has to somehow tank these shots while getting closer, or reacting with his own Force powers. Building a case for that isn't easy, since Kun killed the majority of the beings in that temple in what appeared to be perhaps a few short minutes.
Kun has shown on-panel the ability to blow up fleeing Massassi and engage with the deadly house-sized wyrm at close quarters.
The idea that Kun couldn't land a direct hit or even a near-miss on Bane seems a little misplaced.
Also, I don't seem to recall anywhere that Bane was privy to Kun's possession of such amulets.
There's no mention I could find that Bane would even know what they hell they were until they were being spammed in his direction indiscriminately.
See above. Kun actively uses them while maneuvering around the Sith wyrm, killing it and everything else in range.
This amulet amplifies his anger and rage (and by extension his Force power) thousands of times. He literally punches through a Force spirit capable of great Force powers and destroys it.
Kun's level of implied proficiency and power is rather up there. I'm not saying Bane's a baby in comparison, but the proof that he can overcome an opponent such as Kun is lacking.
The only time we see Kun defending against a Force attack is when Odan-Urr attempts to sever him from the Force, which miserably failed.
Kun's reputed to be a master of the sword before he even leaves Vodo, and his skill improves greatly, to where he toys with the master shortly before destroying him. Bane's insane, and I think you have a valid point here - if Kun engages in saber combat, that would be potentially in Bane's favor. And it's not in-character to spam blasts repeatedly.
But.. orbalisks originate from Dxun, and Kun had access to Nadd's own lore. Nadd knew that orbalisks could absorb even a lightsaber blade and that they soak up dark energy. So it stands to reason Kun may potentially know to spam blasts instead of relying on his saber. [/B]
Originally posted by Eminence
1) He absorbs several shots with the Force, and deflects the rest with his lightsaber.
2) Heavy blaster fire =/= Force blasts. The blaster bolts don't appear to be as powerful as the pulses to begin with, and they obviously don't double in power with every shot.
Power, Lightsnake. The explosions we see, especially the one on the ceiling, are huge.
LightsnakeYou mean the earlier ones, right?
Deflects the one at the end, yes. I'd weigh an AT AT blast as about as destructive and and big as at least some of the high end ones, though...
LightsnakeAnd then the second blows up the ceiling in an explosion Michael Bay would appreciate.
the first one just seems to stun the wyrm
LightsnakeBy comparing them to AT-AT blasterfire, you are.
The problem with doubling in power is that you need to hit to be as effective. I'm not disputing the actual power of the blasts
LightsnakeWhy would Bane be more easily able to hit Kun with a counterattack? He has nothing that compares [remotely] to the destructive power of the amulets, and as detailed earlier there's no way he can take a good hit and end up winning the duel, so he has to keep moving really really fast. Meanwhile, Kun's blasts are just going to get bigger, stronger, and harder to avoid.
Large, yes, but again, they are not so big as what can't be dodged by an opponent as fast and maneuverable as Bane and could potentially leave Kun open to a force counterattack.
Originally posted by Eminence
You mean the earlier ones, right?
And then the second blows up the ceiling in an explosion Michael Bay would appreciate.
By comparing them to AT-AT blasterfire, you are.
Why would Bane be more easily able to hit Kun with a counterattack? He has nothing that compares [remotely] to the destructive power of the amulets, and as detailed earlier there's no way he can take a good hit and end up winning the duel, so he has to keep moving really really fast. Meanwhile, Kun's blasts are just going to get bigger, stronger, and harder to avoid.
He doesn't need to match rocket launcher to rocket launcher when a pistol will do the job. Being destructive doesn't necessarily equate to effectiveness in a fight.
If there any evidence that Kun approaches the level of speed Bane occupies, too?
LightsnakeHigher end amulet blasts?
No, I mean the higher end ones.
That's a joke.
LightsnakeDemonstratably false. See from 7:50 onwards.
Not anything an AT AT blast would likely be incapable of.
LightsnakeSure.
Though it's pointless measuring it as we see Exar cause two explosions with it
LightsnakeIn the hands of a neophyte.
And in power? We see them [incinerate] Massassi, [make really ****ing big explosions and blow holes in] a building and stun[, blow holes through,] and kill a [ridiculously ****ing big, several hundred year old, alchemically created,] mindless monster.
LightsnakeThis is why Farfalla - backed by the battle meditation of a user whose lack of mastery over the technique is explicitly noted - manages to nail Bane with a stasis attack.
Considering the end size of the blasts, that won't be a problem for someone as fast as Bane is.
LightsnakeYou need to stop pretending that firing the amulets is some ridiculous, arduous, time consuming process. Yeah, he has "direct energy to his gauntlets, raise his arm, aim, and fire." I'm sitting here wondering what one does for every other Force attack put on paper or film.
Not only that, if Bane fires off a lightning burst or TK blast while Kun is too busy directing energy to his gauntlets to notice?
LightsnakeAlmost certainly. However, the gauntlets [at least] even the playing field.
Bane is likely the stronger of the two with the force as is to boot.
LightsnakeWhat "pistol"? does Bane have?
He doesn't need to match rocket launcher to rocket launcher when a pistol will do the job.
LightsnakeA significant portion of your argument is dedicated to diminishing the power of the Force blasts, LS.
Being destructive doesn't necessarily equate to effectiveness in a fight.
LightsnakeJanus' argument regarding the effects of the gauntlet on Kun's rage would apply here.
If there any evidence that Kun approaches the level of speed Bane occupies, too?
Originally posted by Eminence
Higher end amulet blasts?That's a joke.
Demonstratably false. See from 7:50 onwards.
As I can't get youtube friendly right now, I'll take your word for it and withdraw this specific point.
[Quote]
In the hands of a neophyte.
This is why Farfalla - backed by the battle meditation of a user whose lack of mastery over the technique is explicitly noted - manages to nail Bane with a stasis attack.
You need to stop pretending that firing the amulets is some ridiculous, arduous, time consuming process. Yeah, he has "direct energy to his gauntlets, raise his arm, aim, and fire." I'm sitting here wondering what one does for every other Force attack put on paper or film.
Almost certainly. However, the gauntlets [at least] even the playing field.
What "pistol"? does Bane have?
A significant portion of your argument is dedicated to diminishing the power of the Force blasts, LS.
Janus' argument regarding the effects of the gauntlet on Kun's rage would apply here.
Is there some evidence that the destructive power will increase when Kun ceases to be a neophyte, or merely that his control over it is greater?
If it were REMOTELY within anything established within Kun's character to ever use them in a fight, then yes they would. I'm skeptical Kun would be able to land the hit on an opponent likely fast enough to dodge and keep moving without any fear of getting tired or weaker?
What, for that matter, is to stop Bane from immediately retaliating with a flick of his wrist?
If he can seize Kun with the force, all he has to do is clench his fist. Kun is stronger than Qordis, sure, but I think we can agree Bane is the more powerful of the two in the force and possibly by a good margin. If Kun is putting all his energy and attention into standing around spamming amulet blasts like a crazed DBZ character, then it's doubtful he's going to have his defenses up
Presumably because being tested against very unresisting stone walls and fodder isn't good at establishing them as some sort of prime weapon in one on one fights
Lightsnake"Merely" that his control over it would be greater.
Is there some evidence that the destructive power will increase when Kun ceases to be a neophyte, or merely that his control over it is greater?
LightsnakeWhich doesn't change the fact that he wasn't moving so blindingly fast that Farfalla couldn't nail him.
Notably because Bane was not defending himself and in face, had turned his back to Farfalla and Raskta to get to said BM master
LightsnakeNot relevant.
And it held him for a fraction of a second.
Lightsnake
Also...stasis attacks? Not the same as amulet blasts, given you need to focus on your opponent as opposing to physically firing energy at them.
RoTThe indication is that it functions the exact same way as the majority of Force powers: projected at the opponent through line of sight.
Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.[...]
Farfalla released the power he'd been gathering in a single concentrated burst. Bane was suddenly encased in a shimmering stasis field of light-side energy, freezing him where he stood.
LightsnakeUh, we can't measure any of them as "borderline instantaneous." Sith lightning can be tracked by the naked eye and evaded, even by low level Force users (Hetton vs. Bane). Telekinesis can be evaded by non-Force-sensitives [with exceptional reflexes]. Again, you need to stop pretending the gauntlet is this slow, cumbersome cannon that takes forever and ever to "aim and fire" and is horrendously taxing in some obscure, ambiguous manner. The argument's been null for three and a half years.
Unlike the gauntlets, we can measure most of them as or borderline instantaneous.
LightsnakeWTF?
If it were REMOTELY within anything established within Kun's character to ever use them in a fight, then yes they would.
Guess that rules out Bane trying to run around the amulet blasts instead of being the bastard that he is and charging straight at puny Kun. Guess that rules out the Force crush, too.
LightsnakeI gathered.
I'm skeptical Kun would be able to land the hit on an opponent likely fast enough to dodge and keep moving without any fear of getting tired or weaker?
LightsnakeAnd doing... what? Unless he has a moment to gather power, no attack he has is going to do much to Kun; the man isn't weak.
What, for that matter, is to stop Bane from immediately retaliating with a flick of his wrist?
LightsnakeOrdinarily? Probably. With the amulet enhancing Kun's telekinesis beyond his already "immensely powerful" levels? Doubt it.
If he can seize Kun with the force, all he has to do is clench his fist. Kun is stronger than Qordis, sure, but I think we can agree Bane is the more powerful of the two in the force and possibly by a good margin.
Also, that'd be out of character for Bane. Oops.
LightsnakeWe're not going through this again, LS.
If Kun is putting all his energy and attention into standing around spamming amulet blasts like a crazed DBZ character, then it's doubtful he's going to have his defenses up
Lightsnake... Yeah. I'll keep that in mind for the next time you bring up Bane's lightning or telekinesis.
Presumably because being tested against very unresisting stone walls and fodder isn't good at establishing them as some sort of prime weapon in one on one fights
LightsnakeNo they don't. In this case, a direct hit by the Force blasts would be far worse than just about any other Force attack Bane could face down; even if the blasts somehow don't blow his head clean off, the orbalisks would drink in the dark side energy, go batshit crazy, and eat him alive.
Six months later when Kun is a full fledged Sith Lord at his peak, he demonstrates little that would put him above Bane...and the orbalisks almost certainly nullify that disparity Janus listed