Spider-Man vs Punisher

Started by D_Dude121019 pages

Originally posted by Deadline
Look all your doing is labelling what you like as stupidity. My opinion is based on comics. There are possibly 100s of examples of street levelers using skill against vastly stronger opponents eg throws, punches . If street levelers can stun bricks and throw them but you think that its impossible for an 8 yr old to choke a full grown man in comics then thats up to you.

Again BP armbarring Silver Surfer is nothing like Spiderman getting choked out by Punisher. Skilled humans have been able to react before Spiderman and hes not even that durable. Thats a million miles away from BP armbar.

edit: BP armbar is stupid but im not refering to that.

Not really. PIS is PIS. Just saying "with enough skill you can do anything" is false logic tbh. It's like saying that with enough skill, you can -lift- 10 tons. That just doesn't go well in any argument. Especially a forum one.

Remember, this argument is about choking someone out, it is not boxing, it is not about tagging someone with a weapon, it is not about outsmarting someone and landing them into a trap. It's one man using his strength to deprive another man of blood flow/oxygen. There is very little room to maneuver here and all he can possibly do is maybe use his skill to gain more leverage. But at the close quarters we're talking about, no amount of leverage can help him overpower someone with the muscle strength to lift 10 tons.

With the whole "with enough skill, someone can choke someone out regardless of strength difference" argument, why would you call the BP armbar PIS and the Punisher choking of Spiderman to not be? If that argument made sense, then why shouldn't BP (who is MILES away in terms of skill) be able to armbar the Surfer (who has almost 0 knowledge in grappling according to that issue)?

Example. If a comic showed the Punisher choking out an elephant (w/c I believe isn't even close to as strong as Spiderman) on one issue, will most people consider that believable or just plain stupid?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Not really. PIS is PIS. Just saying "with enough skill you can do anything" is false logic tbh. It's like saying that with enough skill, you can -lift- 10 tons. That just doesn't go well in any argument. Especially a forum one.

Remember, this argument is about choking someone out, it is not boxing, it is not about tagging someone with a weapon, it is not about outsmarting someone and landing them into a trap. It's one man using his strength to deprive another man of blood flow/oxygen. There is very little room to maneuver here and all he can possibly do is maybe use his skill to gain more leverage. But at the close quarters we're talking about, no amount of leverage can help him overpower someone with the muscle strength to lift 10 tons.

With the whole "with enough skill, someone can choke someone out regardless of strength difference" argument, why would you call the BP armbar PIS and the Punisher choking of Spiderman to not be? If that argument made sense, then why shouldn't BP (who is MILES away in terms of skill) be able to armbar the Surfer (who has almost 0 knowledge in grappling according to that issue)?

Example. If a comic showed the Punisher choking out an elephant (w/c I believe isn't even close to as strong as Spiderman) on one issue, will most people consider that believable or just plain stupid?

Might be wasted breath he the same man who to this day defends Punisher choking on tiger shark with a chain........in water.......and to the point of pull tiger shark to the surface.........yea I know it sound retard, but he say "it because of skill"

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Not really. PIS is PIS.

Just making that statement doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Just saying "with enough skill you can do anything" is false logic tbh. It's like saying that with enough skill, you can -lift- 10 tons. That just doesn't go well in any argument. Especially a forum one.

Not really its absolutely perfect logic and its consistent with comics. Temugin has used martial arts to hit a being made of energy and to flip over a tank, but obvoulsy choking out a guy who is slightly more durable than Captain America is pure madness.

Hell Ogun arguably used martial art training to become immortal, so yeah with martial art training anything is possible.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Remember, this argument is about choking someone out, it is not boxing, it is not about tagging someone with a weapon, it is not about outsmarting someone and landing them into a trap. It's one man using his strength to deprive another man of blood flow/oxygen. There is very little room to maneuver here and all he can possibly do is maybe use his skill to gain more leverage. But at the close quarters we're talking about, no amount of leverage can help him overpower someone with the muscle strength to lift 10 tons.

It doesnt matter if its not the same as boxing, if you can knock somebody out you can choke them out. Your the one who pointed out that it has to be grounded in reality to a degree so the principle still applies. If you can do one then you should be able to do the other. Both are examples of using force to KO an opponent.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

With the whole "with enough skill, someone can choke someone out regardless of strength difference" argument, why would you call the BP armbar PIS and the Punisher choking of Spiderman to not be? If that argument made sense, then why shouldn't BP (who is MILES away in terms of skill) be able to armbar the Surfer (who has almost 0 knowledge in grappling according to that issue)?

Example. If a comic showed the Punisher choking out an elephant (w/c I believe isn't even close to as strong as Spiderman) on one issue, will most people consider that believable or just plain stupid?

Thats just going off on a tangent, were discussing Spiderman and Punisher. The fact of the matter is even if we both agree BP armbar is PIS Pun choking Spiderman isn't.

What you fail to undertstand is that Spiderman isn't as durable as hes strong and is arguably only slightly more durable than Cap. Hell you could even argue Cap Koing bricks or stunning them is PIS but looking at Spidermans durability choking him out is entirely plausible.

What do you mean Spider-man is not as durable as he's strong? 😬 He's got a lot of great durability feats. Beyond what class 10 is supposed to have.

A choke bypasses the durability, his brain still needs oxygene and the pressure needed to stop the blood flow is very light if applied correctly.

Originally posted by SamZED
What do you mean Spider-man is not as durable as he's strong? 😬 He's got a lot of great durability feats. Beyond what class 10 is supposed to have.

Hes not bulletproof for starters. People like Captain America have comparable durability showings. Obvoulsy now you're going to pick all of Spidermans high showings and say this is the norm.

So he could chocke Luke Cage as well? Or Venom?

Originally posted by Deadline
Just making that statement doesn't make it true.

I didn't just say it. I offered reasons why it is PIS. 😛

Originally posted by Deadline
Not really its absolutely perfect logic and its consistent with comics. Temugin has used martial arts to hit a being made of energy and to flip over a tank, but obvoulsy choking out a guy who is slightly more durable than Captain America is pure madness.

Poor comparison here. Temugin has chi manipulation powers that allow him to hit harder as part of his powerset. Punisher has no powerset other than being peak human. Also, I never said it was not possible for Punisher to choke Spiderman out, I'm sure with enough time (and assuming Spidey is tied up and unable to move), he might be able to choke him enough to render him unconcious. What I'm saying is that it is not possible for Punisher to maintain the hold due to Spiderman being vastly stronger than him.

Originally posted by Deadline
Hell Ogun arguably used martial art training to become immortal, so yeah with martial art training anything is possible.

Even tho Castle is pretty awesome at martial arts due to his experience and military traning, it was never shown in comics that he received any kind of special martial arts training that would give him some unique powers/abilities that would allow him to choke out Spiderman.

Originally posted by Deadline
It doesnt matter if its not the same as boxing, if you can knock somebody out you can choke them out. Your the one who pointed out that it has to be grounded in reality to a degree so the principle still applies. If you can do one then you should be able to do the other. Both are examples of using force to KO an opponent.

EXTREMELY poor apples and oranges comparison here. One is a quick and sudden blow that can be done before the opponent can react. The other is a slow, deliberate pressure applied LONG enough in the same place to deprive the opponent of enough blood/oxygen to the brain to cause unconsciousness. One allows the opponent to react once the attack is landed, the other one does not.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats just going off on a tangent, were discussing Spiderman and Punisher. The fact of the matter is even if we both agree BP armbar is PIS Pun choking Spiderman isn't.

Your argument consists of the fact that skill can circumvent great strength differences. I merely pointed out that with that kind of reasoning, the BP vs SS armbar is not actually that farfetched.

Originally posted by Deadline
What you fail to undertstand is that Spiderman isn't as durable as hes strong and is arguably only slightly more durable than Cap. Hell you could even argue Cap Koing bricks or stunning them is PIS but looking at Spidermans durability choking him out is entirely plausible.

Some of Cap's high end feats allowed him to take hits from Class 100's. Saying that Spidey has slightly higher durability than Cap is not really a bad thing. Also, choking someone out requires time. Time enough for Spidey to grab the Punisher's arm (as the the act of choking prevents him from maneuvering his arm) and snap it like a twig.

Originally posted by Deadline
Hes not bulletproof for starters. People like Captain America have comparable durability showings.

You don't have to be bulletproof to be durable, how about taking hits from beings like Rhino, Venom (Brock), Carnage, Morlun, Lizard, Sandman? They're all stronger or pretty equal in strength...

Or taking Bombs/Blasts from Hobgoblin, Green Goblin, Jack O' Lantern, Shocker?

Originally posted by Deadline
Obvoulsy now you're going to pick all of Spidermans high showings and say this is the norm.

Yeah it's not that you do it all the time with Punisher... 🙄
oh sorry I forgot he's skilled...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Poor comparison here. Temugin has chi manipulation powers that allow him to hit harder as part of his powerset. Punisher has no powerset other than being peak human.

The point is you said that stating that anything is possible with martial art skill is bad argument, its not. Obvously you then have to disprove that Punisher can't choke out Spiderman which you haven't. So yes anything is possible with martial arts.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Also, I never said it was not possible for Punisher to choke Spiderman out, I'm sure with enough time (and assuming Spidey is tied up and unable to move), he might be able to choke him enough to render him unconcious. What I'm saying is that it is not possible for Punisher to maintain the hold due to Spiderman being vastly stronger than him.

That point wasn't obvious, that changes nothing and my point still stands.

edit: What time period are we talking about here, because im defintely arguing that he can put him in a choke hold and make him pass out instantly. The longer it goes on the more unlikely it is, but I think he could do it for at least several seconds if Spiderman is gasping for breath and losing conciousness.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Even tho Castle is pretty awesome at martial arts due to his experience and military traning, it was never shown in comics that he received any kind of special martial arts training that would give him some unique powers/abilities that would allow him to choke out Spiderman.

Um knocking US Agent flat on his back, being able to stun people with comparable durability and even more.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

EXTREMELY poor apples and oranges comparison here. One is a quick and sudden blow that can be done before the opponent can react. The other is a slow, deliberate pressure applied LONG enough in the same place to deprive the opponent of enough blood/oxygen to the brain to cause unconsciousness. One allows the opponent to react once the attack is landed, the other one does not.

You completely missed the point. If you have enough ability to knock somebody out you should be able to choke them out, it doesn't matter if they are different. No a choke hold can make somebody pass out instantly.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Your argument consists of the fact that skill can circumvent great strength differences. I merely pointed out that with that kind of reasoning, the BP vs SS armbar is not actually that farfetched.

True and to be quite honest with you if street levelers did it on a regular basis it wouldnt be PIS either.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Some of Cap's high end feats allowed him to take hits from Class 100's. Saying that Spidey has slightly higher durability than Cap is not really a bad thing.

Yes so if taking class 100 shots is a high end feat getting choked out by The Punisher is not PIS. I think Cap taking class 100 shots is PIS by the way.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Also, choking someone out requires time. Time enough for Spidey to grab the Punisher's arm (as the the act of choking prevents him from maneuvering his arm) and snap it like a twig.

No not neccesarily. If Spiderman cant breath properly and is passing out he can't use his class 10 strength. You try lifting something while gasping for breath

Originally posted by SamZED
So he could chocke Luke Cage as well? Or Venom?

*sigh* Giving me examples of somebody more durable than Spiderman, proves your point how?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
You don't have to be bulletproof to be durable, how about taking hits from beings like Rhino, Venom (Brock), Carnage, Morlun, Lizard, Sandman? They're all stronger or pretty equal in strength...

Or taking Bombs/Blasts from Hobgoblin, Green Goblin, Jack O' Lantern, Shocker?

Yes I know, he still not much more durable than Cap and that still doesn't change the fact that with enough skill he can be choked out.

Originally posted by Parmaniac

Yeah it's not that you do it all the time with Punisher... 🙄
oh sorry I forgot he's skilled...

How the hell would you know, have you even be reading the present Punisher series and Punisher War Journal series. Punisher recently has lots of feats against superhumans, that clearly means they are not high end showings but the norm. You are simply arguing because you don't want Pun to win.

Yes he is extremly skilled pick up a Punisher comic.

Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Giving me examples of somebody more durable than Spiderman, proves your point how?

Venom durability is not higher then Spidermans.......

Originally posted by Deadline
Yes I know, he still not much more durable than Cap

Capt with his armor. Which is how the feats get comparable, which is pretty ridiculous seeing as how capt needs armor plus peak human durability to be in the same ball park.

Spiderman blunt force trauma>>Capt

Originally posted by Deadline
and that still doesn't change the fact that with enough skill he can be choked out.

For starters Punisher does not have "enough skill". Second no amount of skill would allow Punisher to choke out some one who neck muscles is storng then Punisher entire body. It is PIS plain and simply, no amount of skill unless you now trying to say Punisher know some super duper MA ability which allows him to completely negate his opponents massive strength advantage and over power him.

Originally posted by Deadline
How the hell would you know, have you even be reading the present Punisher series and Punisher War Journal series.

I read it, and own it. What "feats" would these be? sound more like bullshit to me.

Originally posted by Deadline
Punisher recently has lots of feats against superhumans, that clearly means they are not high end showings but the norm.

For starters having feats vs meta human does no validate Punihser over power Spiderman. Second on run giving him some feats vs superhumans does not all of a sudden make it the norm. The norm is years of those feat that are the majority of the showings. Also most of the "feat" were using his new technology. Also one of the "feats" was utter PIS were Punisher over powered Tiger Shark under water and choked him out, and you to this day try and state that it a valid feat and one of skill........😆

Originally posted by Deadline
You are simply arguing because you don't want Pun to win.

I for one have no problem for him winning, but you posting events were Punisher chokes out Spiderman as evidence and then try and defend it, just make you look like a fanboy to the max.

Originally posted by Deadline

Yes he is extremly skilled pick up a Punisher comic.

He quite skilled true, but there are many much more skilled.

Originally posted by Deadline
The point is you said that stating that anything is possible with martial art skill is bad argument, its not.

It is a bad argument when the individual your using has never shown anything that would allow him the ability to match an opponent hundreds of times his strength. It ridiculous your argument, it also strawmaning, which is not even a debate tactic it actually just of form of trolling for the ignorant.

Originally posted by Deadline
Obvously you then have to disprove that Punisher can't choke out Spiderman which you haven't. So yes anything is possible with martial arts.

Prove that Punisher has shown the ability to increase his strength 10 times peak level, because that is what he need to do, to even hope to accomplish such a feat. Or show lifting feats equal to the task of choking out Spiderman.

Punisher has not shown through MA training the ability to increase his strength vast or at all. You are strawmaning, the argument your using is not the end all be all and he context you are using it in, is just that. I hope you realize that strawmaning is just another form of trolling.

Originally posted by Deadline
That point wasn't obvious, that changes nothing and my point still stands.

Yes it was obvious for anyone using logic and sound reasoning. Your point never stood, it been nothing but strawmaning from the start.

Originally posted by Deadline

edit: What time period are we talking about here, because im defintely arguing that he can put him in a choke hold and make him pass out instantly. The longer it goes on the more unlikely it is, but I think he could do it for at least several seconds if Spiderman is gasping for breath and losing conciousness.

The odds of Punihser putting a stronger, faster, more agile, better reflexes and possessing a Spidersense in a choke hold is pretty much non existent. If he even did get him in one which he would not, they don’t work instantly that’s just wrong, even worse Spiderman more powerful body means stronger lungs which mean he can hold air in it much longer. Spiderman also could easily flex his neck which would be to strong for Punisher to even closes, and Spiderman could instantly flex to free himself of the vastly weaker Punisher easily.

Originally posted by Deadline
Um knocking US Agent flat on his back, being able to stun people with comparable durability and even more.

Knocking people over is not knocking them out, nor dos it mean you can knock them out. Who did he stun? If I recall your definition of stun is far from what it actually is.

Originally posted by Deadline

You completely missed the point. If you have enough ability to knock somebody out you should be able to choke them out, it doesn't matter if they are different.

It does matter if there different, one does not validate the other.

You missed the point, be able to hurt some one with punches is not the same as being able to choke some one out. Choking realizes on ones strength more then anything, Punching power does not translate into strength always. They are two completely different attacks that uses different area’s of the body and attack in different ways. For example Tito Ortiz has zero knock out power, but is consider by many the strongest individual in his weight class. Chuck Liddell was able to knock him out, but would not be able to submit him. Except it been more like a 2 year old trying to Choke out Tito Ortiz is comparable to Punisher doing it to Spiderman. Also punches have to do with speed more then anything, strength helps, but the strongest Punchers tend to always been the fastest. Punches also can generate a lot more force then a person can lift produce in strength.

Originally posted by Deadline

No a choke hold can make somebody pass out instantly.


That the shit that happens in movies, have you ever been in a choke hold? It not by any mean instant and someone always has the ability to try and escape though it might be to late. Spiderman tried even a little he effortlessly get out of the much weak Punishers choke hold and him being faster as well mean he have ample time for his respected speed and perception of events to easily escape.

Originally posted by Deadline

True and to be quite honest with you if street levelers did it on a regular basis it wouldnt be PIS either.


But they don’t and it is PIS.

Originally posted by Deadline

Yes so if taking class 100 shots is a high end feat getting choked out by The Punisher is not PIS. I think Cap taking class 100 shots is PIS by the way.


No if taking class a 100 was a high end feat, Punisher choking him out would not even register on the list and would still be which is in fact PIS.

Originally posted by Deadline

No not neccesarily. If Spiderman cant breath properly and is passing out he can't use his class 10 strength. You try lifting something while gasping for breath


He would not need class 10 strength which is his bases level anyways to easily break Punisher grip and arm.

Have you ever lifted weights or watch some one or been to a gym? Man people hold their breath when they lift. Fail again I am afraid, this is getting to be as bad as the Tiger Shark fiasco.

Both have prep?...then Spider-man for the majority 8/10

Originally posted by starlock
Both have prep?...then Spider-man for the majority 8/10

The problem Spidermans prep is usually trying to act differently.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Venom durability is not higher then Spidermans.......

sorry Buddy but this is not correct

Man what a fail, hes so hell-bent on proving me wrong he'll spout any nonsense.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
sorry Buddy but this is not correct

I not sure it is. He has vastly better damage soak, but thats not the same as durability. Durability is how much damage does to your physical frame. Venom goes back and forth it truelly hard to guage what his true durability really is.

with out a doubt Venom can take far more punishment that not even a question, but I not sure how much of that is durability and how much of that is simply his damake soak/healing abilites.

Originally posted by Deadline
Man what a fail, hes so hell-bent on proving me wrong he'll spout any nonsense.

Proving you wrong is a simple as it gets. But of course you hvae view my responses and did no responsed becuase you have no answer.

It all matters how one defines durability.

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