Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher also out smarted people better than Cyke, so that doesnt give them the definite win.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has tech that could potentially kill Wolverine, Collosus will be harder. Collosus doesnt seem that durable to me.
What does Castle have that can replicate the force of a speeding bullet train, or top-tier bricks? You might say the Satan Claw, which worked on Rhino. Problem there is that Rhino is hardly as durable as Colossus.
Team ftw.
Originally posted by -Pr-
that's one.
Which is what I mean by it depends. Cyclops had a massive team of X-men, Namor and New Mutants to help him beat Norman. Cyclops doesnt have these resources in this thread.
On the other hand Punisher has outsmarted people better than Cyke on his own using normal equipment. I think the team can win but thats not admissable as evidence.
I can think of many examples of Cyclops strategy but alot of them involve him using the X-men not on his own. So far Pun is looking better. In fact according to Remender a tired, sleep deprived Pun is going to outsmart Norman. 😬
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
[B]-Pr- sez:
you could say the same about cyclops, though. [/B]
That point has already been adressed.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
He does have weapons that could potentially kill Wolverine, or at least take him out of the fight. Problem is he's got to hit a dodging Wolverine while avoiding attacks from Cyclops and Colossus. It's not very likely.
Its not a forgone conlusion that he can hit Wolverine, but this is why ive given him 3 weeks prep and help from Henry during and after prep. With these stipulations he has a decent chance of pulling it off and the team have a decent chance of winning.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
What does Castle have that can replicate the force of a speeding bullet train, or top-tier bricks? You might say the Satan Claw, which worked on Rhino. Problem there is that Rhino is hardly as durable as Colossus.Team ftw.
Titanuim mans glove. Blacklashs whip ( possibly). Pun can get hold of nukes.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Colossus is VERY durable. he's actually more durable than he is strong. he's survived re-entry and the subsequent crash to a planet's surface. he's taken on shiar security tech. he's taken a sentinel blast without flinching. he's had some impressive showings since his return...
Yes I know hes very durable. However Collosus got taken out by a random giant robot and it seems he was having some trouble fighting Gargan Venom.
I dont put Collosus up there with Hercules and Thing. Hes very durable but Pun has tech that could potentially take out Iron Man.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Which is what I mean by it depends. Cyclops had a massive team of X-men, Namor and New Mutants to help him beat Norman. Cyclops doesnt have these resources in this thread.On the other hand Punisher has outsmarted people better than Cyke on his own using normal equipment. I think the team can win but thats not admissable as evidence.
I can think of many examples of Cyclops strategy but alot of them involve him using the X-men not on his own. So far Pun is looking better. In fact according to Remender a tired, sleep deprived Pun is going to outsmart Norman. 😬
i disagree. cyclops doesn't need the x-men to come up with the plans he comes up with. they're just the tools he uses to implement his plans.
it comes down to one question: do you believe punisher is a better strategist than cyclops?
Yes I know hes very durable. However Collosus got taken out by a random giant robot and it seems he was having some trouble fighting Gargan Venom.I dont put Collosus up there with Hercules and Thing. Hes very durable but Pun has tech that could potentially take out Iron Man.
you honestly think the thing is more durable than colossus?
we don't know how strong that robot was, so it doesn't serve to show good or bad durability, imo.
and colossus wasn't having trouble. gargan didn't hurt him, and colossus took him down easily enough, imo.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i disagree. cyclops doesn't need the x-men to come up with the plans he comes up with. they're just the tools he uses to implement his plans.
He does in the example you gave because in that example he needed help from Emma, Mirage etc. Are you telling me that Cyclops could have beaten Norman with just Wolverine and Collosus?
Originally posted by -Pr-
it comes down to one question: do you believe punisher is a better strategist than cyclops?
Well I tell you what how about you answer my question? Please give me examples of Cyclops outsmarting people smarter than Punisher using the resources used in this thread. Please dont tell me I dont read enough Xmen. Ive read about 5 years worth of Uncanny X-men, X-men series and I have some of X-men Utopia.
I will answer the question however. Clearly Pun is better in some areas than Cyke and vice versa. When it comes to inflitration and assasination hes clearly better, Cyke is a better team leader
Originally posted by -Pr-
you honestly think the thing is more durable than colossus?
What I said really was that I think Thing is overall a better brick.
Originally posted by -Pr-
we don't know how strong that robot was, so it doesn't serve to show good or bad durability, imo.and colossus wasn't having trouble. gargan didn't hurt him, and colossus took him down easily enough, imo.
To be quite honest with you Gargan has shown that he can aruably give Collsus a decent fight and Venom Gargan is not that impressive.
Usually getting taken out by random beings isn't as impressive as been taken out by established characters but thats a reasonable point.
Anyway Pun has tech that can potentially take out Iron Man.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He does in the example you gave because in that example he needed help from Emma, Mirage etc. Are you telling me that Cyclops could have beaten Norman with just Wolverine and Collosus?
he didn't need their help to come up with the plan. coming up with a strategy and implementing it are two different things.
Well I tell you what how about you answer my question? Please give me examples of Cyclops outsmarting people smarter than Punisher using the resources used in this thread. Please dont tell me I dont read enough Xmen. Ive read about 5 years worth of Uncanny X-men, X-men series and I have some of X-men Utopia.
cyclops (by himself) has more than once taken on teams of x-men and beaten them by himself with no prep and no other resources. he did fool norman, regardless of whether he needed help to implement his plan.
I will answer the question however. Clearly Pun is better in some areas than Cyke and vice versa. When it comes to inflitration and assasination hes clearly better, Cyke is a better team leader
i can agree on those points.
What I said really was that I think Thing is overall a better brick.
i disagree.
To be quite honest with you Gargan has shown that he can aruably give Collsus a decent fight and Venom Gargan is not that impressive.
i honestly don't agree. at no point in the fight did it look like, to me, that colossus was having trouble, and when he wanted to end it, he did it quite easily.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not a forgone conlusion that he can hit Wolverine, but this is why ive given him 3 weeks prep and help from Henry during and after prep. With these stipulations he has a decent chance of pulling it off and the team have a decent chance of winning.
It's possible for Punisher to shoot Wolverine, but it's still going to take some time, focus, and effort to actually do it... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Titanuim mans glove. Blacklashs whip ( possibly). Pun can get hold of nukes.
Titanium Man himself was not as strong or as durable as Colossus is now. If Castle tried going toe-to-toe with Colossus, he'd wind up a red stain on the battlefield, even with that glove. Blacklash's whip won't do him much better.... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.
"Pun can get a hold of nukes." ? What... is he gonna kill himself in order to kill the X-Men now? That's not a win for him even if does manage to kill all of them that way.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes I know hes very durable. However Collosus got taken out by a random giant robot and it seems he was having some trouble fighting Gargan Venom.I dont put Collosus up there with Hercules and Thing. Hes very durable but Pun has tech that could potentially take out Iron Man.
Just because it was a random giant robot doesn't mean that it was just another cannon-fodder robot. Taking out Colossus as one of its few feats speaks a good deal of that robot's badassery. What real trouble did Colossus have against Gargan?
Colossus matched Thing's strength as a teenager. He was the only brick to have been intact when he died alongside Hulk and Thing.
You don't know for a fact that Punisher's new weapons could take out Iron Man, but it's a null point when you consider that Colossus is much more durable than Iron Man.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It's possible for Punisher to shoot Wolverine, but it's still going to take some time, focus, and effort to actually do it... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.
I agree but that doesn't mean its a foregone conlusion the team win. Thats why Pun has 3 weeks prep and help during and after prep. Hes manged to hold his own against Wolverine on his own without Einnis and outsmarted people better than Cyke with no prep. Adding the 3 weeks prep and help from Henry gives him a decent chance but its no foregone conclusion he wins or loses.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Titanium Man himself was not as strong or as durable as Colossus is now. If Castle tried going toe-to-toe with Colossus, he'd wind up a red stain on the battlefield, even with that glove.
Im talking about the firepower from the blaster.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Blacklash's whip won't do him much better.... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.
Yes that could happen buts that as an example of a situation which may or may not happen. Im just giving you examples of tech that could potenially take out Collosus.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
"Pun can get a hold of nukes." ? What... is he gonna kill himself in order to kill the X-Men now? That's not a win for him even if does manage to kill all of them that way.
Im giving an example of things that could take out Collosus potentially. Obvoulsy the hard part is making up a plan
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Just because it was a random giant robot doesn't mean that it was just another cannon-fodder robot. Taking out Colossus as one of its few feats speaks a good deal of that robot's badassery. What real trouble did Colossus have against Gargan?
I suspect you have used the fact that Blade has faced no-name villains as an example of how crap Blade is. However I agree that this point of view is valid.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Colossus matched Thing's strength as a teenager. He was the only brick to have been intact when he died alongside Hulk and Thing.
It also looked like Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight eg Collosus had to resort to picking up some stone to take out Gargan. Im not saying that Gargaon would beat him but it seemed that Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight and Gargan aint all that.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
You don't know for a fact that Punisher's new weapons could take out Iron Man, but it's a null point when you consider that Colossus is much more durable than Iron Man.
Thats why I said potentially thats the reason why Titanuim man had the gloves.
That means it would be even harder to take out Collosus but it could be still done. Collosus maybe more durable than Iron Man but im pretty sure Iron Man has comparable durability feats.
Theres also a fairly decent chance that Henry can modify the weapons hes taken a fuel cell in Titanuims glove and used it on a high-tech skateboard.
He also can shrink Collosus, making him weaker.
Originally posted by -Pr-
he didn't need their help to come up with the plan. coming up with a strategy and implementing it are two different things.
Geez Pr the point is obvoulsy that he couldn't have implemented it without there help.
Originally posted by -Pr-
cyclops (by himself) has more than once taken on teams of x-men and beaten them by himself with no prep and no other resources.
Thats impressive but bear in mind that the X-men are practically family and that gives Cyke an advantage that other people wouldn't.
I know of the danger room example I dont know of the others you are mentioning they may have had circumstances to it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
he did fool norman, regardless of whether he needed help to implement his plan.
Yeah but the point is its not a good example of beating somebody smarter than Pun because he would not be able to do this with the stipluations in this thread. According to Remender what Punisher is going to do is more impressive.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i can agree on those points.
Which gives Pun an advantage in this thread.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i disagree.
I suspect a case could be made for either brick so im not sure if its worth getting into it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
i honestly don't agree. at no point in the fight did it look like, to me, that colossus was having trouble, and when he wanted to end it, he did it quite easily.
I think they have only fought twice. On one ocassion Collosus resorted to picking up some stone and hitting Venom with it. It implies that Collosus's fists were not strong enough to get the job done and had to resort to external means (im not saying that Collosus couldn't KO him via fists just that it should be noted he had to resort to something else). If we look at the fight which they had in Utopia they looked evenly matched Collosus was having to make effort to hold off Venom. You can't say that either side looked superior but if you look at both fights it implies that Venom could give Collosus a decent fight. I think Collosus would win by the way.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I agree but that doesn't mean its a foregone conlusion the team win. Thats why Pun has 3 weeks prep and help during and after prep. Hes manged to hold his own against Wolverine on his own without Einnis and outsmarted people better than Cyke with no prep. Adding the 3 weeks prep and help from Henry gives him a decent chance but its no foregone conclusion he wins or loses.
He's got help, but he's still alone on the battlefield. The best Henry could do is give him advice and be his lookout. He's got loads more new guns, but he's still only got two hands. That's still not nearly enough to fend off 3 attackers from three different sides, especially not when considering their abilities.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im talking about the firepower from the blaster.Yes that could happen buts that as an example of a situation which may or may not happen. Im just giving you examples of tech that could potenially take out Collosus.
Thats why I said potentially thats the reason why Titanuim man had the gloves. That means it would be even harder to take out Collosus but it could be still done. Collosus maybe more durable than Iron Man but im pretty sure Iron Man has comparable durability feats. Theres also a fairly decent chance that Henry can modify the weapons hes taken a fuel cell in Titanuims glove and used it on a high-tech skateboard.
He also can shrink Collosus, making him weaker.
Nukes might kill everyone on the battlefield, with the likely exception of Colossus... and possibly Wolverine. 😐
It's not a viable tactic for Castle any which way you look at it.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im giving an example of things that could take out Collosus potentially. Obvoulsy the hard part is making up a plan
For the sake of argument, even if he did have weapons that could hurt Colossus, there's no real plausible way he could defend against all three of them long enough to kill them before they kill him.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I suspect you have used the fact that Blade has faced no-name villains as an example of how crap Blade is. However I agree that this point of view is valid.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It also looked like Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight eg Collosus had to resort to picking up some stone to take out Gargan. Im not saying that Gargaon would beat him but it seemed that Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight and Gargan aint all that.
Doesn't mean much. That's like saying you couldn't say for certain who'd win a fight between a powerful heavyweight boxer like Evander Holyfield and a junior middleweight like Terry Norris, simply because Holyfield chose to end it with a bar stool instead of his fists. Of course the bigger, stronger Holyfield would win against the marginally quicker Norris. Same thing here with Colossus and Venom, regardless if it's either Brock, Parker, or Gargan joined with the symbiote.
Shrinking Colossus wouldn't stop him. He would move slower because of his shortened strides, but would still be just as durable as he is in his normal state. I was pretty sure Pym Particles allow the user to retain his strength at his normal size even when shrunk... but even if it's diminished, Colossus would still have the strength to kill Castle. After all, a shrunken Rhino was able to temporarily cripple Deadpool.
A shrunken Colossus busted both the front doors to the X-Mansion with one punch.
Also, I've noticed that Venom can increase his size(and apparently his strength) when he fights, but he only seems to do it against Colossus. As for the fight when Colossus hit him with the rock, it seems like Colossus couldn't get enough strength behind a punch from his current position.(On his back, holding Venom off with one hand), so he popped him with a rock. If he could ever get a solid hit on Venom, or not get his tongue wrapped around him every second, he could easily take Venom down.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Geez Pr the point is obvoulsy that he couldn't have implemented it without there help.
that doesn't cheapen the strategy at all, though.
Thats impressive but bear in mind that the X-men are practically family and that gives Cyke an advantage that other people wouldn't.I know of the danger room example I dont know of the others you are mentioning they may have had circumstances to it.
twice he's beaten them when they were trying to kill him, and once, he was made to think that he should kill them all. in all 3 cases he was victorious.
Yeah but the point is its not a good example of beating somebody smarter than Pun because he would not be able to do this with the stipluations in this thread. According to Remender what Punisher is going to do is more impressive.
cyclops makes up plans on the fly. he's actually better at strategising during fights than he is before them. imo, its as likely that he could outsmart frank as it is the other way around.
Which gives Pun an advantage in this thread.
not really, imo. scott still has a team to work with, and is still clever on his own.
I think they have only fought twice. On one ocassion Collosus resorted to picking up some stone and hitting Venom with it. It implies that Collosus's fists were not strong enough to get the job done and had to resort to external means (im not saying that Collosus couldn't KO him via fists just that it should be noted he had to resort to something else).
i don't think that's what it indicates at all. i don't think he had to resort to something else. at no point in the fight did it look like he was in trouble, imo.
If we look at the fight which they had in Utopia they looked evenly matched Collosus was having to make effort to hold off Venom. You can't say that either side looked superior but if you look at both fights it implies that Venom could give Collosus a decent fight. I think Collosus would win by the way.
a decent fight? maybe. but ever beat him given colossus's vast strength and durability advantage? not really. the man is cl100 after all, and that's just his strength. his durability is higher.
Originally posted by -Pr-cyclops makes up plans on the fly. he's actually better at strategising during fights than he is before them. imo, its as likely that he could outsmart frank as it is the other way around.
My man. Frank finally gets some love. 😄
I haven't responded to the other points because im dodging I just feel we could be here for ages comparing feats were an argument could made for either side.
Its unclear wether Pun is going to take on Dark Avengers and Hammer but he defintely will be taking on Daken and Hammer. IMO I think its possibly more impressive than what Cyclops has done since hes going to be sleep deprived and tired. As far as I know Daken has actually taken on the whole X-men.
Also Henry has been shown to be quite good on the fly as well. Hes saved Franks arse from Mr Hyde when he was about to be splattered and it was his idea to wage a PR campaign against Norman. That satellite of his can also see energy signatures which were capable of indicating Leethas mind control over Spiderman.
Originally posted by -Pr-not really, imo. scott still has a team to work with, and is still clever on his own.
Anyway I guess what im getting at is at both sides have advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't think that's what it indicates at all. i don't think he had to resort to something else. at no point in the fight did it look like he was in trouble, imo.
Well yyyeah. I agree but I think im not really explaining my self properly, but I think thats my fault really.
Originally posted by -Pr-
a decent fight? maybe. but ever beat him given colossus's vast strength and durability advantage? not really. the man is cl100 after all, and that's just his strength. his durability is higher.
Yes I would agree with that as well, boring.
All I can say is that I think some of his weapons can potentailly take out Iron Man so imo I think they could take out Collosus with more difficulty.
I also know that some of his weapons were capable of taking out Thunderball with ease. Bare in mind its been stated that Thunderball can take shots from Thor, ive also seen one of the wrecking crew take a blow from a pissed off Thor and get right up cracking jokes. Thunderball isn't as durable as Collosus but anything that can KO him easily isn't to be sniffed at, those guys are quite tough.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
My man. Frank finally gets some love. 😄I haven't responded to the other points because im dodging I just feel we could be here for ages comparing feats were an argument could made for either side.
Its unclear wether Pun is going to take on Dark Avengers and Hammer but he defintely will be taking on Daken and Hammer. IMO I think its possibly more impressive than what Cyclops has done since hes going to be sleep deprived and tired. As far as I know Daken has actually taken on the whole X-men.
Also Henry has been shown to be quite good on the fly as well. Hes saved Franks arse from Mr Hyde when he was about to be splattered and it was his idea to wage a PR campaign against Norman. That satellite of his can also see energy signatures which were capable of indicating Leethas mind control over Spiderman.
Anyway I guess what im getting at is at both sides have advantages and disadvantages
Well yyyeah. I agree but I think im not really explaining my self properly, but I think thats my fault really.
Yes I would agree with that as well, boring.
All I can say is that I think some of his weapons can potentailly take out Iron Man so imo I think they could take out Collosus with more difficulty.
I also know that some of his weapons were capable of taking out Thunderball with ease. Bare in mind its been stated that Thunderball can take shots from Thor, ive also seen one of the wrecking crew take a blow from a pissed off Thor and get right up cracking jokes. Thunderball isn't as durable as Collosus but anything that can KO him easily isn't to be sniffed at, those guys are quite tough.
so basically agree to disagree? 🤨