Originally posted by darthgoober
abhi I'm using YOUR logic here. You're saying that if Surfer was unable to overpower one of the hammer's enchantments then it means that the hammer(and therefore Thor) are more powerful than he. Well that kind of sweeping characterization would also apply to the rest of the enchantments as well, including the one about lifting it.Cool do you have any scans of those instances? It's cool if you don't(I can check with someone else), I just feel the need to view them for myself to check for context.
Poor abhi... you should really come to grips with the fact that posters like you are the whole reason for this little tidbit...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13288186#post13288186
Goober, is it fair to say the following:
Thor's everyday lightning or generic blasts from Mjolnir > Surfer's generic blasts
Thor's strength > Surfer's strength
Surfer's speed> Thor's speed
Surfer's estoric offense (black holes) > Thor's estoric offense
If you do then who do you think is more powerful at best and also on average?
Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Surfer has the higher energy output, Thor is the better warrior. Most of the writer/editor interviews I have seen suggest this.
Energy output as in general blasts?
I would say Thor's lightning attacks stuns heralds greater than Surfer's generic hand blasts (which do almost nothing against his peers).
Surfer's black hole creation is greater than anything Thor can muster though (even Godblast). But Surfer isn't willing to do this tactic often enough. So that may take away from him being more powerful.
Surfer is clearly faster and can use the board to strike someone. Thor can throw the hammer.
Thor's greater damage soak is matched by Surfer's durability.
If Surfer used his speed and reflexes to full capacity then he would be more formidable. Does that count for more powerful?
Originally posted by h1a8
Goober, is it fair to say the following:
Thor's everyday lightning or generic blasts from Mjolnir > Surfer's generic blasts
Thor's strength > Surfer's strength
Surfer's speed> Thor's speed
Surfer's estoric offense (black holes) > Thor's estoric offenseIf you do then who do you think is more powerful at best and also on average?
As for who's more powerful both at their best and on average... it's not really possible to give a definitive answer. Thor steps out of his weight class to take down big guns more frequently(though Surfer does it too, and sometimes against foes who've just given Thor a beating) but Surfer seems to preform better against peers in the same weight class more frequently(though Thor's got some better showings against peers also). Like I said, it's really pretty much a subjective coin flip.
Originally posted by darthgoober
abhi I'm using YOUR logic here. You're saying that if Surfer was unable to overpower one of the hammer's enchantments then it means that the hammer(and therefore Thor) are more powerful than he. Well that kind of sweeping characterization would also apply to the rest of the enchantments as well, including the one about lifting it.
The returning enchantment is a test of power. Worthiness enchantment isn't.
Sufficiently powerful beings have stopped mjolnir returning to Thor. Surfer isn't one of them.
Cool do you have any scans of those instances? It's cool if you don't(I can check with someone else), I just feel the need to view them for myself to check for context.
Will post once I get my laptop.
Poor abhi... you should really come to grips with the fact that posters like you are the whole reason for this little tidbit...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13288186#post13288186
Keep running away from me Goober.
👆
Originally posted by darthgoober
That's mostly fair, but I do take slight issue with the idea of basic blast from Thor being more powerful than basic blasts from Surfer. Thor is a warrior, Surfer is a pacifist whenever he feels he can get away with it. Surfer's gone so far as to take a beating and let his opponent believe he's beaten or when he's not or simply left the area just to avoid a fight before. So in a comic with a plot in play, it's fair to say that Surfer's going to hold back more and Thor's blasts/lightning may come off as more powerful, but this doesn't really apply in a forum fight where the plot isn't in play and the combatants are fighting to win.As for who's more powerful both at their best and on average... it's not really possible to give a definitive answer. Thor steps out of his weight class to take down big guns more frequently(though Surfer does it too, and sometimes against foes who've just given Thor a beating) but Surfer seems to preform better against peers in the same weight class more frequently(though Thor's got some better showings against peers also). Like I said, it's really pretty much a subjective coin flip.
Originally posted by abhilegend
The returning enchantment is a test of power. Worthiness enchantment isn't.Sufficiently powerful beings have stopped mjolnir returning to Thor. Surfer isn't one of them.
Really, because I know that you consider Hulk to be more powerful than Thor and I'm pretty sure that he's failed at stopping it from returning. And I know that Thanos w/IG banished the hammer and it still returned.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Will post once I get my laptop.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Keep running away from me Goober.👆
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just to chime in....goober wasn't the one who didn't post in his BZ....
Originally posted by CosmicComet
People keep talking about that Fraction Thor vs Surfer fight, but they came off looking decently even to me.Thor headbutted Surfer and bled from it, winced from the pain, Surfer's forehead was dented a bit but he felt no pain from it.
Then they had a fight on Mars or something later on and neither were really hurting each other with their blasts.
Surfer however was holding back and trying to be diplomatic. Thor was bloodlusted and willing to kill, but he did have some magic injury (though said injury was not stated to dampen his power and he was wearing that special space armor that would have added to his protection anyway).
That's not true. The injury was specifically stated to be extremely painful and getting worse by the moment. It was highlighted more than once how bad it was, that it could not heal, and that he was bleeding not blood but energy.
Fyi, the Space Armor was used to enhance the mobility of regular Asgardian's and gear them for space combat (Flight etc.) but such augments are negligible for Thor.
Also, what do you mean Surfer was holding back? He was more pacifistic in the sense he paused when he saw Thor's wound I guess (Further highlighting how serious it was as even he hadn't seen anything like that before) but did you see the way he was talking to Thor?
I think the fight between the two would have looked even with Thor having an edge (He just looked more impressive to be imho but maybe it was because he was more aggressive) but once you include the fact of the injury, it swings way into his favor in my opinion.
Originally posted by darthgoober
That's not actually what Surfer said. He said that the hammer's magic was mightier than his cosmic force. The only magic he'd seen from the hammer was it's "return" enchantment which he repetedly tried to interrupt with energy blasts. All he was saying was that he shouldn't have been able to keep Thor's hammer from him as successfully as he finally accomplished by putting it in a simple energy block.
Picking hairs here. The intention was clearly that Mjolnir > Surfer and Thor > Surfer. The magic of Thor's hammer is what exactly if not the power of Mjolnir?
If you wanted to argue that the dynamics have changed since then (Surfer would have been a secondary boss that Thor would have beaten the f*ck up before getting to Galactus at the time) that's one thing, but I think there's no denying that Thor was top dog at the time*.
Mjolnir's return enchantment is extremely more powerful when Thor actively calls for it so it's not a contradiction. And Thor shattered that force field in one blow once he got angry and Surfer himself notes how much more powerful than him Thor is but chooses not to use it.
*This is such a classic Thor vs. Surfer fight and a classic fight in general and it will forever influence how things will go between the two imo. If you're going to write Surfer vs. Thor, you're always going to read Surfer #4 first for an example of how the legends did it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Really, because I know that you consider Hulk to be more powerful than Thor and I'm pretty sure that he's failed at stopping it from returning. And I know that Thanos w/IG banished the hammer and it still returned.
I consider Hulk to be stronger. More powerful is debatable on a given day.
There are a lot of scenes where mjolnir is stopped though.
Ok.
Keep telling yourself that I'm "running" abhi. After all...
All I see is running away.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Firelord and Hulk are the ones who leap to mind. And while he wasn't actually a peer seeing as how he was actually more powerful than both, Surfer preformed better against Millinius too.
Surfer never looks better than Thor in raw power to Hulk. Hulk has outright no sold his attacks and has overpowered Surfer and Namor together twice and that's never happened to Thor.
Millenius almost killed Surfer by his own admission and Thor actually koed him. Where did he look better than Thor?
Surfer has been koed twice by Iron Man BTW. Thor just beats the shit out of Tony every chance they fight.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Picking hairs here. The intention was clearly that Mjolnir > Surfer and by proxy Thor > Surfer. The magic of Thor's hammer is what exactly if not the power of Mjolnir?If you wanted to argue that the dynamics have changed since then (Surfer would have been a secondary boss that Thor would have beaten the f*ck up before getting to Galactus at the time) that's one thing, but I think there's no denying that Thor was top dog at the time*.
Mjolnir's return enchantment is extremely more powerful when Thor actively calls for it so it's not a contradiction. And Thor shattered that force field in one blow once he got angry and Surfer himself notes how much more powerful than him Thor is but chooses not to use it.
*This is such a classic Thor vs. Surfer fight and a classic fight in general and it will forever influence how things will go between the two imo. If you're going to write Surfer vs. Thor, you're always going to read Surfer #4 first for an example of how the legends did it.
It's not picking hairs, it's examining the context of Surfer's statement. Context matters and it's NOT clear that Thor's hammer>Power Cosmic.
Also, Surfer didn't note that Thor was more powerful than he when Thor broke the forcefield. He said something to effect of "He has more strength than I could know..." and no one's arguing that Surfer is physically stronger than Thor. What's more, even that statement could easily be interpreted as "He's stronger than I realized".
Originally posted by abhilegend
Firelord has koed Surfer three times when Marz made him a clown and way less of a threat than he was under Conway. Firelord has never koed Thor straight up.Surfer never looks better than Thor in raw power to Hulk. Hulk has outright no sold his attacks and has overpowered Surfer and Namor together twice and that's never happened to Thor.
Surfer has 2 wins against Firelord and 1 loss via monologue when he gave the downed Firelord a chance to surrender before he finished him off. Thor has 3 stalemates... I'd say Surfer's got the better record.
Hulk outright said that either Surfer's power cosmic or Surfer himself were stronger than he(the art's unclear), Thor never got that kind of admission. And Surfer KO'd Hulk right after with a shot to the head from his surfboard shortly thereafter which gives him a faster win against Hulk than Thor's ever gotten. Breaking free of a friend who's trying to hold you back isn't really "overpowering" someone.
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not picking hairs, it's examining the context of Surfer's statement. Context matters and it's NOT clear that Thor's hammer>Power Cosmic.Also, Surfer didn't note that Thor was more powerful than he when Thor broke the forcefield. He said something to effect of "He has more strength than I could know..." and no one's arguing that Surfer is physically stronger than Thor. What's more, even that statement could easily be interpreted as "He's stronger than I realized".
Yes you are.
Surfer had been hit by the hammer, had seen it absorb his energy, and seen it fly and return to Thor's hand (All while being far more powerful than he had ever been before by the intention of Stan Lee). Based on this information, he noted that his hammer was more powerful than his Cosmic Force and you think this was directed purely at the return enchantment? Which hadn't even been really contested, and not the overall power between the two?
At minimum it means, and this is against the spirit of the comic imo, that: Thor's hammer is powerful at absorbing energy than Surfer is at projecting it, can hit harder, and it's return enchantment is more powerful than Surfer. None of this is news to any of us based on their respective histories IMHO and there isn't much else left there except energy projection and we already know which is superior at that (Mjolnir imo). But I think this defeats and ignores the spirit of the comic. It wasn't meant to be dissected this much. I think the intention was clear.
I think he was referring to who was more powerful/formidable, and not who would win in an arm-wrestling contest. The whole issue went to great lengths to highlight Thor's power and it's dominance over Surfer's own power.
There's other things to strengthen Surfer's stance. If you think that Surfer/Thor are relatively equal for most intents and purposes, that's fine, but #4 isn't the evidence to use for this.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes you are.Surfer had been [b]hit by the hammer, had seen it absorb his energy, and seen it fly and return to Thor's hand
(All while being far more powerful than he had ever been before by the intention of Stan Lee). Based on this information, he noted that his hammer was more powerful than his Cosmic Force and you think this was directed purely at the return enchantment? Which hadn't even been really contested, and not the overall power between the two?At minimum it means, and this is against the spirit of the comic imo, that: Thor's hammer is powerful at absorbing energy than Surfer is at projecting it, can hit harder, and it's return enchantment is more powerful than Surfer. None of this is news to any of us based on their respective histories IMHO and there isn't much else left there except energy projection and we already know which is superior at that (Mjolnir imo). But I think this defeats and ignores the spirit of the comic. It wasn't meant to be dissected this much. I think the intention was clear.
I think he was referring to who was more powerful/formidable, and not who would win in an arm-wrestling contest. The whole issue went to great lengths to highlight Thor's power and it's dominance over Surfer's own power.
There's other things to strengthen Surfer's stance. If you think that Surfer/Thor are relatively equal for most intents and purposes, that's fine, but #4 isn't the evidence to use for this. [/B]
He says the hammers magic, and the only "magic" he'd seen was the return enchantment and the absorption. The absorption has no specific bearing at the moment of the statement but the return enchantment is being directly challenged when the statement is being made so it seems pretty clear to me that the return enchantment is what's being referenced. And it WAS tested when Surfer kept blasting the hammer after Thor recalled it.
No the issue didn't go to great lengths to highlight Thor's dominance over Surfer, Thor got in one shot(which Surfer bounced right back from) and was getting his ass kicked for the most part. So when Surfer references strength right after Thor preforms a feat of strength, it seems a bit of a stretch to infer "overall power".