Originally posted by Genesis
However, they were killed in the greatest numbers.
Originally posted by jaden101
In the camps perhaps. The Russians suffered far greater losses than all other countries combined.They lost more troops invading Finland that the Allies did in the whole of the war.
What jaden said.
I don't think its a ''fun'' fact. It is actually well known fact that Russians lost more people than allies combined - well it is well known in European history books anyway.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What jaden said.I don't think its a ''fun'' fact. It is actually well known fact that Russians lost more people than allies combined - well it is well known in European history books anyway.
I always knew the Chinese lost a lot of people as well. I'd assume Russia would lose a lot considering the density of their population.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It wasn't just Jews that were killed in great numbers during WWII.
Was a greater attempt at genocide comitted against another people during WWII?
Originally posted by jaden101
The level of technological and scientific investment would be massive and we would be far more advanced now that we currently are.I think that if the third reich had won then we would be wasting far less resources than we currently are.
Obviously anyone with half a brain would think that the extermination of the Jews and other ethnic groups is abhorrent but the elimination of severely disabled people at birth would save a massive amount of resources.
People might think that sounds barbaric but bear in mind that one of the pioneering, advanced and democratic (for the time) civilisations ever in history also implemented that policy. The Spartans.
Controversial opinion?...Yes. Will I get abuse for voicing it?...Probably. Does it have validity?...Definitely.
Do you have evidence of this technology advancement? I could counter that idea with the technology plans from other nations.
And eugenics are definitely a way of improving the human race. I'm all for it, actually. Mandotory sterlization, with an iron fist rule, etc. NOT! lol
But I do like the idea of Eugenics...just a voluntary kind.
Also, just because the Spartans did it, doesn't mean it's okay. Just means it was okay among that group of people.
Originally posted by dadudemonAnd if the Germans won, it'd be okay amongst them. So it all works out in the end.
Also, just because the Spartans did it, doesn't mean it's okay. Just means it was okay among that group of people.
And I just read on Wikipedia that the Winter War cost the Russians some 80,000 dead. A lot less than the total British and American dead.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if the Germans won, it'd be okay amongst them. So it all works out in the end.
No it doesn't. It is neither okay or not okay. It is all relative to cultural norms of the person observing.
Murder is universal among humans, so is it not being kosher. However, what constitutes murder...or the consequences of murder, is what varies among the people.
Do you have evidence of this technology advancement? I could counter that idea with the technology plans from other nations.
The Heinkel He 108, The Messerschmitt Me 262...Both the beginning of jet technology, the V1 and V2 flying bombs...the beginning of rocket and intercontinental ballistic missle technology.
People such as Ludwig Prandtl, Wernher von Braun, Konrad Dannenberg, Wilhelm Raithel, Ernst Stuhlinger, Klaus Riedel, Carl Freidrich and many others were the scientists who went on to key roles in the US nuclear and space technological advancement. All of them were German and all of them were pivotal in the development of the German rocket programme and nuclear research programme.
There were 1500 German scientists who were to be forced to work for the UK in the aftermath of WW2 simply to stop them being forced to work for the Soviet Union as it was feared they would make the SU the most powerful military in the world.
Why I say what I do is because the Germans put a far greater emphasis on scientific development in the 1930's and 40's than any western country does today. Himmler was adamant that large sums of money would be put to scientific research. Unfortunately for the west, it ranks very low on the priorities scale unless it's something that can grab the headlines such as global warming research.
While the experiments done on living subjects were horrible, many scientists have attempted to use Nazi biology finding to further research in their own fields.
There's also the fact that way in which Nazi experiments were carried out has since been adapted to standard practice of peer review, seminar presentation and fundraising.
Here's a few stories about former Nazi scientists and what they went on to achieve for the allied countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm
Total Russian losses during WWII (including civilians) were somewhere between 20 and 30 million, by far the highest of any single country. What is often neglected however is almost half of them were killed by other Russians.
The country that suffered the highest losses as a percentage of it's population was Poland.
I'm hella glad the Nazis lost the war, efficiency be damned.
Originally posted by The Dark Cloud.
Total Russian losses during WWII (including civilians) were somewhere between 20 and 30 million, by far the highest of any single country. What is often neglected however is almost half of them were killed by other Russians.
Almost half?
I didn't know that. I've never heard before.
Where did you get this information?
Originally posted by jaden101
The Heinkel He 108, The Messerschmitt Me 262...Both the beginning of jet technology, the V1 and V2 flying bombs...the beginning of rocket and intercontinental ballistic missle technology.People such as Ludwig Prandtl, Wernher von Braun, Konrad Dannenberg, Wilhelm Raithel, Ernst Stuhlinger, Klaus Riedel, Carl Freidrich and many others were the scientists who went on to key roles in the US nuclear and space technological advancement. All of them were German and all of them were pivotal in the development of the German rocket programme and nuclear research programme.
There were 1500 German scientists who were to be forced to work for the UK in the aftermath of WW2 simply to stop them being forced to work for the Soviet Union as it was feared they would make the SU the most powerful military in the world.
Why I say what I do is because the Germans put a far greater emphasis on scientific development in the 1930's and 40's than any western country does today. Himmler was adamant that large sums of money would be put to scientific research. Unfortunately for the west, it ranks very low on the priorities scale unless it's something that can grab the headlines such as global warming research.
While the experiments done on living subjects were horrible, many scientists have attempted to use Nazi biology finding to further research in their own fields.
There's also the fact that way in which Nazi experiments were carried out has since been adapted to standard practice of peer review, seminar presentation and Fund-raising.
Here's a few stories about former Nazi scientists and what they went on to achieve for the allied countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm
Myth: The Germans developed the Jet Engine.
Fact: The WWII German Scientists did create the beginnings of the Jet Engine. On top of that, it was developed in other countries at the same time as it was in Germany. Also, a British Engineer is also credited, along with a German engineer, for the independent development of the jet engine.
Myth: The Germans invented rockets and set the groundwork for rockets in space travel.
Fact: Konstantin Tsiolkovsky quickly followed by Robert Goddard. The end. 😐 If you want to take it further, it was the Russians who made the most progress, pre-WWII on rocket technology.
I'll give you ICBM's, though. But it's still an extension of work done by other nations...then Germans did it...then other nations used those scientists.
Myth: Peer reviews, fund raising, and seminars were invented by the Nazis.
Fact: No they weren't. Fund-raising, though not exactly the same as Fund-raising for medical study, was probably best done by American president, Andrew Jackson. His group was credited for starting the whole fund raising craze for politics and by extension, science. However, it existed long before he did it. He just did it better.
Peer review existed LONG before WWII scientists used it.
Seminars...hmm...ever hear of a Socratic debate? You probably did in your philosophy class. Yeah, the idea of a seminar is far from new. I don't even think that Socrates "invented" the seminar type of discussion, either. I think it was around before him.
Do you have any other specific technologies from WWII Germany?
So far, we agree on ICBMs and the stealing of German scientists being important.
Myth: The Germans developed the Jet Engine. Fact: The WWII German Scientists did create the beginnings of the Jet Engine. On top of that, it was developed in other countries at the same time as it was in Germany. Also, a British Engineer is also credited, along with a German engineer, for the independent development of the jet engine.
So you say it's a myth then go on to say it's not a myth. And yes i'm well aware of Whittle's contribution with the turbojet but Ohain designed the 1st self contained jet engine and powered the 1st all jet plane. My point that the Germans still plowed far more money and resources (and still would be doing if they had won) means that we'd be far more advanced in that technology than under our current system had the Reich's priorities still been the same today.
Fact: Konstantin Tsiolkovsky quickly followed by Robert Goddard. The end. no expression If you want to take it further, it was the Russians who made the most progress, pre-WWII on rocket technology.
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky is rightly credited with working out the theoretical principles of interplanetary travel and the idea of hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel but you can hardly say he did anything of practical significance in terms of building technology. If we're playing at being as pedantic as we can then why not go back to ancient times and credit the Chinese with inventing gunpowder?
Myth: Peer reviews, fund raising, and seminars were invented by the Nazis. Fact: No they weren't. Fund-raising, though not exactly the same as Fund-raising for medical study, was probably best done by American president, Andrew Jackson. His group was credited for starting the whole fund raising craze for politics and by extension, science. However, it existed long before he did it. He just did it better. Peer review existed LONG before WWII scientists used it. Seminars...hmm...ever hear of a Socratic debate? You probably did in your philosophy class. Yeah, the idea of a seminar is far from new. I don't even think that Socrates "invented" the seminar type of discussion, either. I think it was around before him.
Strawman argument. I never said they invented them. I said their method of carrying them out has been pretty much standard practice since their method.
The fact remains. WW2 was a massive driving force behind technological advancement and German scientists were pivotal in that advancement both during and after the war. I believe that had the Nazis won then those same scientists would have been given far more resources than they did from the US, UK or other allies.
As horrible a thought as it is and as unethical as it is, the work of Josef Mengele, Karl Gebhardt and Fritz Fischer was pioneering in the development of drugs to combat disease. The fact that they conducted these experiments on living people, while it may be abhorrent, also sped up the research to a huge degree.
What they did is terrible. How they went about the research process and presenting their findings was very influential on modern day research methods. I'm not saying they invented it but they certainly standardized many of the ways it is reviewed and published.
Here's an interesting site about what I mean in terms of using Nazi research as a basis for further research.
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html
Do you have any other specific technologies from WWII Germany?
Yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_brothers
http://www.rense.com/general4/bac.htm
http://www.rense.com/general34/enhance.htm
German scientists also invented or further developed IR night vision technology, guided missiles, electronic computers, the electron microscope, atomic fission, data-processing technologies, pesticides, chemical and biological weapons such as Tabun and Sarin gas.
For public health reasons, the Nazis were the 1st to produce research into the links between smoking and lung cancer.
They pioneered research into treating hypothermia though their experiments on human subjects.
Microwave cooking was pioneered by Nazi scientists to feed the troops on the Russian front.
That's just some of the stuff they did and I still standby the point that if the Nazis had won then more money would have been put into furthering those pieces of research.
You should definitely read that jlaw website though. Very interesting stuff.
Originally posted by jaden101
So you say it's a myth then go on to say it's not a myth.
A Myth is not always false, though. You're attaching a negative connotation to it that it doesn't deserve.
Originally posted by jaden101
And yes i'm well aware of Whittle's contribution with the turbojet but Ohain designed the 1st self contained jet engine and powered the 1st all jet plane. My point that the Germans still plowed far more money and resources (and still would be doing if they had won) means that we'd be far more advanced in that technology than under our current system had the Reich's priorities still been the same today.
I don't see that and your claim is yet to be substantiated. It's not that I don't believe, it's just that I don't have your evidence.
What about numbers? Percentage of GDP invested in scientific development, etc. This is the stuff I need.
Originally posted by jaden101
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky is rightly credited with working out the theoretical principles of interplanetary travel and the idea of hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel but you can hardly say he did anything of practical significance in terms of building technology. If we're playing at being as pedantic as we can then why not go back to ancient times and credit the Chinese with inventing gunpowder?
To some physicists, Tsiolkovsky is the father of modern rocket science. (Goddard is usually the name that comes up, though.)
Did the Germans use recipes and instructions from "ancient" Chinese texts to make V-2 rockets? Nope. Did they use math from Tsiolkovsky as well as chemical ideas in a directly practical way? Sure did. And therein lies the reasoning.
Also, you're totally forgetting about my mention of Goddard...who actually experimented with rockets which set the groundwork for the V-1 and 2 rockets.
Originally posted by jaden101
Strawman argument. I never said they invented them. I said their method of carrying them out has been pretty much standard practice since their method.
Non sequitor fallacy. Your post was a justification for why we would be far more technologically more advanced than we are now. All items discussed were already widely used in other nations and before WWII Germany.
In other words, you logic does not follow. You didn't justify a reason why
Also, I never said you claimed that they invented them, either. I simply contradicted the notion that it was original to Germany or was even "spearheaded" by WWII Germany.
Originally posted by jaden101
The fact remains. WW2 was a massive driving force behind technological advancement and German scientists were pivotal in that advancement both during and after the war. I believe that had the Nazis won then those same scientists would have been given far more resources than they did from the US, UK or other allies.
The actual fact is, technology was being developed in other countries independently, that were comparable to Germany's. Do you have any groundbreaking technology examples from Germany or is it all recycled ideas from previous greats? This is the stuff I'm looking for. Original, genuine, innovation.
Originally posted by jaden101
As horrible a thought as it is and as unethical as it is, the work of Josef Mengele, Karl Gebhardt and Fritz Fischer was pioneering in the development of drugs to combat disease. The fact that they conducted these experiments on living people, while it may be abhorrent, also sped up the research to a huge degree.
I disagree that they were pioneers. Sure, they did some innovative stuff, but pharmacology had already been established in the modern world. The FDA actually came into existence in 1906, many years before those German scientists would do their work. The FDA was preceded by a couple of agencies before that, as well.
Also, WTF did Gebhardt do? I thought he just killed a bunch of women. My history books only taught that he was an absurd sadist that got killed after the conclusions of the Doctors' Trial.
Also, what did Fischer do? Again, only knowledge I have of him is his being a virtual no-name from the Doctors' Trial.
I see nothing revolutionary about any of the work they were doing.
Mengele is pretty much the only one of significance that you mentioned. However, his actual contributions to medical science are questionable. Don't you agree? I mean...what did he really contribute? What was "discovered" of note from his experiments?...or obsession with twins?
Originally posted by jaden101
What they did is terrible. How they went about the research process and presenting their findings was very influential on modern day research methods. I'm not saying they invented it but they certainly standardized many of the ways it is reviewed and published.
Like what? I don't know of any medical methods that they pioneered off the top of my head. I do recall that something came from those camps, but I cannot recall anything at the moment. I need something more specific.
And, I disagree, on a factual level, that the WWII German medical "experts" standardized jack shit in the way things are reviewed. The peer review process was already widely used before WWII.
Originally posted by jaden101
Here's an interesting site about what I mean in terms of using Nazi research as a basis for further research.
Do you know that this article contains a massive section condemning the Nazi "research" and cites several doctors who agree with that? Do you also know that there were problems with following a legitimate scientific method, at times? You do know that they also polluted the scientific terms with sadistic almost sarcastic meanings?
Basically, hypothermia is the only useful data from that article you posted.
I'm having a hard time recalling, still, anything that was legitimately useful. As the article concludes, that could be because the data hasn't been examined enough to be of use.
Originally posted by jaden101
Yes
I am not finding this particular invention to be revolutionary or even groundbreaking. However, it was innovative for its time, but was among other/similar computers around it's time.
I see your computer and raise you the ABC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_Computer
Originally posted by jaden101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_brothers
I see your Horten Brothers and raise you the Northrop YB-35 and the XB-36.
Do you see what I mean now about stuff from WWII Germany having compliments from other nations?
Originally posted by jaden101
http://www.rense.com/general4/bac.htm
AHA! Here's one. But I see your bacteria and raise you Alexander Fleming. A Scottish scientist.
But, more to the point, where did they get the idea to search for a cure for this problem in the first place? That seems pedantic, but it really isn't. The idea that a disease could be cured through immunological techniques came from somewhere.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immunology
Originally posted by jaden101
http://www.rense.com/general34/enhance.htm
Using amphetamines, cocaine, and morphine for "medical" purposes was nothing new.
Where's the NEW stuff, man. Where's the good stuff. That hypothermia thing was an example of that. I want more of THAT stuff.