If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create?

Started by Shakyamunison10 pages

Originally posted by Ryo 666
Thanks.

Seems kind of dickish for an all loving being. Then again we were given Jade Goody, so hes gotta have a twisted sense of humour.

It is all based on the idea that the bible is supernatural, and there are things in it that are foretold. The problem with is that we are looking at a document 2000 years after it was constructed from a vast array of books written by different people. This leads to the possibility of Postdiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction

The idea that the crucifiction of Jesus was foretold is a relatively modern fabrication derived from elaborate postdiction.

* God is not omniscient. and He can search our hearts and minds:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind
, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings."
Jeremiah 17:9-10

* but there is something God does not know. and it is the decision before it comes to the heart and mind:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."
Jeremiah 7:31

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"
Jeremiah 19:5

* the sum of all His creations is this:

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* God created a good angel. but that angel corrupted its own heart and tried to be God's equal:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
Isaiah 14:12-14

* just like when He created Adam and Eve. His creations has its own decision to make, He gave us all free will:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;"
Deuteronomy 30:19

* eventhough all people commits sin, let us remember:

"For the Lord is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to all generations."
Psalms 100:5

* He is merciful enough to forgive all our sins, so long as those sins are "forgiveable"... 🙂

ummm.... i'm pretty sure in Jeremiah 7:31 and Jeremiah 19:5 God is actually saying that what the people did was nothing to do with him, that he didn't influence those decisions whatsoever.

'which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart' - he had no desire for that to happen.

'which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind' - he didn't command the people to do it in whatever form, not even in his mind - 'neither came it into my mind'.

it doesn't have anything to do with him knowing the people would do these things or not. its to do with whether his will was for the people to do these things, which it wasn't. but they did them anyway because they had free will.

though i can see how you have come to your conclusion.

edit

Off topic?

i'm just correcting the guy.

Originally posted by magnuslives
ummm.... i'm pretty sure in Jeremiah 7:31 and Jeremiah 19:5 God is actually saying that what the people did was nothing to do with him, that he didn't influence those decisions whatsoever.

'which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart' - he had no desire for that to happen.

'which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind' - he didn't command the people to do it in whatever form, not even in his mind - 'neither came it into my mind'.

it doesn't have anything to do with him knowing the people would do these things or not. its to do with whether his will was for the people to do these things, which it wasn't. but they did them anyway because they had free will.

though i can see how you have come to your conclusion.

"You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3

* there is something God does not know... 🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
"You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. [b]The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Deuteronomy 13:3

* there is something God does not know... 🙂 [/B]

Then your god is not all knowing. I then can assume that "he" is also NOT all powerful. Because the passage that says that god is all knowing also says that "he" is all powerful. If one part is not true then there is a good chance that the entire statement is false. A god that is not all knowing and not all powerful could not create the universe, in my opinion. The act of creating the universe would require all power and all knowledge.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The act of creating the universe would require all power and all knowledge.

And why is that exactly?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And why is that exactly?

The amount of information that is in the universe is unbelievably mind boggling. It would take so much knowledge, to place all this information in it's place (without using natural processes) that only an all knowing god could do it. Of course, natural processes would not need a god to create the universe, but that idea is outside the bible.

* hello, mr.shakyamunison... 🙂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then your god is not all knowing.

* does not know all? no problem about that... i believe there is something God does not know as i've stated on posts...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I then can assume that "he" is also NOT all powerful. Because the passage that says that god is all knowing also says that "he" is all powerful. If one part is not true then there is a good chance that the entire statement is false.

* being all-powerful does not require anyone to be all-knowing too... but to answer your argument, eventhough i believe that God really is Almighty, there is also something He cannot do as stated in the Bible, for example:

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:"
Hebrews 6:18

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A god that is not all knowing and not all powerful could not create the universe, in my opinion. The act of creating the universe would require all power and all knowledge.

* well, generally speaking, we may consider God as all-knowing and all-powerful also as stated in the Bible:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"
Isaiah 46:9-10

* this passage implies that God knows everything from past to future... but what i was talking about were "specifics"... there is something God does not know or cannot do... these are specifics in which by certain circumstances proves to us that God is Almighty, He is good, merciful, holy and righteous... 🙂

^ Sorry, but it sounds like you are rationalizing.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
^ Sorry, but it sounds like you are rationalizing.

* Biblical rationalization... 😛

This God fellow seems kinda dumb sometimes, huh?

Originally posted by peejayd
* Biblical rationalization... 😛

Still rationalization.

Originally posted by BackFire
This God fellow seems kinda dumb sometimes, huh?

* opinions, opinions... just learn to respect, bro... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* opinions, opinions... just learn to respect, bro... 😉

do u respect the stoning of women? how about pedophelia? what about the right of the parents to beat children?

after all these are BELEIFS held by many people.

lesson being? just because sumthing is sum1's beleif does not mean it shud be respected or deserves respect.

NO1 shud respect christianity, it is harmful to the beleiver and to those around him{including the greater non beleiving world}. the beleif itself contains a lot of objective evil.

there IS a difference between oppinions supported by facts and oppinions challenged by facts.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
do u respect the stoning of women? how about pedophelia? what about the right of the parents to beat children?

after all these are BELEIFS held by many people.

lesson being? just because sumthing is sum1's beleif does not mean it shud be respected or deserves respect.

NO1 shud respect christianity, it is harmful to the beleiver and to those around him{including the greater non beleiving world}. the beleif itself contains a lot of objective evil.

there IS a difference between oppinions supported by facts and oppinions challenged by facts.

Yeah and islam is what we all should be 🙄 . Judaism and Christianity shat all over islam.

Re: If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create?

Originally posted by ushomefree
This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.” Job 37:16, Psalm 139:2-4; Psalm 147:5, Proverbs 5:21, Isaiah 46:9-10, and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not.

If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means he cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little trickier because we are asking a ‘why’ question, to which the Bible doesn’t usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding if we examine some biblical passages.

To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and Adam and Eve would sin, and yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have been saying thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

If we consider what some theologians call the ‘meta-narrative’ (or over-arching story-line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1-2); 2) paradise post (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20); 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained.

At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5).

Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God.

3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God.

So we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be ‘saved?’ Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it doesn’t make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise to paradise lost to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to in view of the above assertions is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of the above assertions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as he saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).

In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (i.e., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (when I say ‘free choices’ what I mean is that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?

Be careful of how you interpret certain passages of Scripture, or you can fill into the erroneous view of Calvinism...which states that God only selected an "elect" few for salvation. It is true that God knows who will accept Christ and receive eternal life, but those individuals are in no way an "elect". God grants everyone the right to eternal life through Christ. God knows who will accept and who will not...but, in no way does God preordain the decision for men.

In regards to your question in general...why would God create Satan and man, knowing that sin will enter the universe? Well, why wouldn't He? God could've created every man and angel without free will. Without free will, man and angel would be nothing more than mindless robots who have no choice but to worship God. A loving God would not want to force His creation to worship him, but to worship Him based on free will. Yes, He knew that Satan and many other angels would rebel against His rule. Yes, God knew that Adam and Eve would bring sin into the world by eating of the tree of knowledge. However, God also knew that man can be redeemed...and that many men will worship God out of his/her own free will.

I don't pretend to know the mind of God, as His thoughts are above our thoughts. However, some conclusions can be discovered by studying scripture...and the answer to your question is in the Bible. We may not fully understand God's reasoning, but there is no way to truly know and understand these things unless we were in His Presence and in a glorified body that He promises to give all His believers in the future.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
do u respect the stoning of women? how about pedophelia? what about the right of the parents to beat children?

after all these are BELEIFS held by many people.

lesson being? just because sumthing is sum1's beleif does not mean it shud be respected or deserves respect.

NO1 shud respect christianity, it is harmful to the beleiver and to those around him{including the greater non beleiving world}. the beleif itself contains a lot of objective evil.

there IS a difference between oppinions supported by facts and oppinions challenged by facts.

Then why should anyone respect your position?

Also can you really not see the difference between believing in God and raping kids?