If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
didnt u hear what i said? hitting children FOR any reason is wrong, please dont debate this ridiculious stance of yours.

* oh? you are the law now? 😱 there is a reason for hitting a child, if it's to discipline him/her, it's okay... if there's no reason, it's wrong... your stance is ridiculous, not mine...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
some individuals DO respect pedophelia{specially in the past, aisha was 8-9 when muhammad married her}. shud their beleifs be respected?

* well, if that's true, i am not him... get it? stop generalizing...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the wrest is falsified claims and quotations from a falsified book?

* because that is the basis of Christianity... the Bible promotes love, learn to accept that...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
discrediting and exposing any negetive ideology/dogma/tradiotion and relegion {i.e. christianity} remains a GOOD thing.

* it's alright to discredit, but not all...

Originally posted by Sado22
wow, all this happened because we hit our children?
dude you totally missed the point of what i'm saying. we're talking about chlidren disciplining. what does any of this have to do with child beating?

not to mention the fact that i love how we're automatically assuming that none of this goes around in the west. everything you mentioned has a flipside to it. are there as many gangs in pakistan or india or middle east as ameria? are drugs as rampant in the mid east as in the west? and what about crime? rape, theft, burglary all of these are pretty rampant in the west as well. there are somethings that are more rampant in the east, yes, but you're totally ignoring the flipside of the picture. west is far from the ideal society you seem to suggest it is.
you need to travel more, mate.

criminals and gangsters don't exist in the west? postively no rule of law? in the middle east crime has always been low compared to the west. heck, in indo-pak countries, crime is still less.
you're making some serious sweeping generalizations here.

corrupt governments, i'd probably agree though. same with the army stuff. but that's pakistan only.

you're the one making rampant, sweeping generalizations here, mate. not to mention that you've practically turned this into a social commentary when we're originally talking about discipling children. in fact, you're making pretty weird generalizaton about christianity too. promoting bigotry and pedophilia? masochism and child abuse? damn, i didn't know Jesus and Tylor Durden were the same person.
i think you either visit way too many anti-christian/anti/islamic websites or you just don't seem to try to see the flipside of things. all religions promote only one thing: love and tolerance. for every anti-social comment you find in these scriptures (while ignoring context) there are several comments about love and tolerance and patience. what a few hardliners do, should not have any bearing on what the majority does. there are christian and muslims extremists, yes, there is a lot of religious hypocrisy going aorund, yes but people have always used religion as an excuse to do these things because people have always been good at that. its not religion's fault. islam nor christianity nor judaism never asked for women to be subjugated but manupilative asswipes took the story of Eve to stir bigot sentiments in people. Its best with islam because the Quran doesnt mention Eve as the one who ate the forbidden fruit but both of them (and in some cases Adam as the one who ate it and gave it to Eve)...still, it was misused by bigots to spew their poison
and people are good at it because people always beleive what they want to believe and see what they want to see. think about it, hitler used Neitzche's philosophy to carry out the holocaust and promote nazism. but was that Neitzche's real intention? were his books a treatise on genocide and racism?
Hell no. now notice how neitzche was an atheist but even his words were used to install all that hatred in people. now imagine how powerful manupilation the "word of god" really can be. THAT is the bt that you seem to miss.

~Sado

did u read what u wrote. YOU made the RIDICULOUS claim that the east had less "social/emotional" issues than the west ad went on to give a select few stereotypical example which ive heard all my life by narrowminded people around me who love to point those silly unthought examples out. i went on to destroy them, with real examples and u were unable to post a proper response and went on to try and connect hitting children as the cause of the whole thing{making it sound like i implied that}

things like that DO go on in the west but at a far smaller level{and i dont care for any anecdotal examples ud like to give, statistics show the differences}. i never claimed that the west was IDEAL, i just claimed that it is FACTUALLY a lot better of than the east and the problems it does have, have NOTHING to do with lack of dicsipline. ignorant, narrow minded claims like these are a given of the masses in the muslim world in general.

the middle east has a very high level of crime among immigrants and foregners and workforce. you see it was NEVER the cutting of hands that was the reason for people not stealing much in arabia,{although many dickheaded mullahs and relegious scholars wud like u to beleive it} it was the fact that due to the oil EVERY1 was ****ING RICH. but ever since people started immigrating for jobs and contructions purposes the rate of crime went up incredibly, wanna guess why? BECAUSE THEY WERE POOR!!!! nuthing to do with dicsipline, nuthing to do with relegion, nuuthing to do with the death penalty and nuthing to do with the draconian laws. just plain poverty. plus, saudia does a lot to keep up appearances and the real crime/abuse figures are never revealed much less accurately reported in such a tyrranical society.

as for the second last paragraph. i call major bull. any 1 not brainwashed can see that relegions is abuot conflict, egotism, supression, and masochism. it has been singularly responsible for more bloodshed than any other philosophy. the rationalisation that its the EXTREMISTS who do it doesnt work because its the SCRIPTURES wich preach all the hate. i havent been to any anti islamic websites. im a former muslim
ive read the quran and the hadith and like many others have found them to be nonsenical, injustifyable, unscientific and evil. not to mention, completely false in most of their claims. judeochristian relegions are NOT about love but about hate and suffering and sadism and self deprecation. your delusional if u think theyr about love.

as for neitzche, lol, i have little love for the man, he was an ego maniac and hitler was exactly the kind of man he worshipped and wanted to be. the superman for whom the wrest of the world's pawns exist to serve and follow and suffer.

Originally posted by peejayd
* oh? you are the law now? 😱 there is a reason for hitting a child, if it's to discipline him/her, it's okay... if there's no reason, it's wrong... your stance is ridiculous, not mine...

* well, if that's true, i am not him... get it? stop generalizing...

* because that is the basis of Christianity... the Bible promotes love, learn to accept that...

* it's alright to discredit, but not all...

no, psychology, the charter of human and children rights and logic is the law. i merely accept them as opposed to a disproven book. your claim is bull, hitting chilldren is ALWAYS WRONG. SPECIALLY for what has classically been referred to as "disciplining". its unnaceptable and evil.

did i say u were him? no. ur avoiding the question. YOU said that people shuld learn to respect points of view/philosophies as if it was an inherent right of any philosophy or point of view to be respected. i called bull and gave u an example of a point of view that i dont respect and neither do u. now, wud u respect pedophelia or not. because if u dont, ur going back on ur word and im proving u wrong.

as i said, christianity DESERVES no respect.

because the source material has been scientifically/logically/mathematically and humanistically been proven wrong. learn to open ur eyes.

it alright to discredit all as anything but manmade. it also alright to discredit MOST as being false.

some individuals DO respect pedophelia{specially in the past, aisha was 8-9 when muhammad married her}. shud their beleifs be respected?

context is your friend. also if muslims today are usng that as an excuse to become pedophiles its still not muhammed's fault. its their ignorance of the life conditions at the time that is to be blamed. not muhammed.

and pertaining to pedophila, pedophiles have been going around in all societies, in all ages. its got nothing to do with religion. a theist becoming a pedophile has as much to do with religion as an atheist becoming one.

~Sado

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no, psychology, the charter of human and children rights and logic is the law. i merely accept them as opposed to a disproven book.

* i am not even saying my stand because of the Bible, i am stating this because what i'm saying is morally and humanly correct... i just added a passage from the Bible for you to know that what i am saying is also in accordance with it...

* @ hitting children... hitting them =/= beating them to a pulp or killing them... in my country, to discipline a spoiled brat is to hit that child in the butt with slippers, then afterwards explaining to them that what they did was wrong...

* now you, and that oversized "belief" of yours, need to chill out... or maybe you want to be like in some countries were the parent only scolded the child and the child jailed them for child abuse... now THAT, my friend, is a complete bullcrap...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
your claim is bull, hitting chilldren is ALWAYS WRONG. SPECIALLY for what has classically been referred to as "disciplining". its unnaceptable and evil.

* go tell that to spoiled brats who would eventually become juvenile delinquents someday... hitting children is NOT always wrong... you're implying that ALL parents do not know how to raise their own children...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
did i say u were him? no. ur avoiding the question. YOU said that people shuld learn to respect points of view/philosophies as if it was an inherent right of any philosophy or point of view to be respected. i called bull and gave u an example of a point of view that i dont respect and neither do u. now, wud u respect pedophelia or not. because if u dont, ur going back on ur word and im proving u wrong.

* that's because you LOVE to generalize... majority of people you will ask do NOT respect pedophilia, you gave an example which was never done by ordinary people, it was a special circumstance as explained by mr.sado22... you are just grasping ropes... stop this, bro, you're done...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
as i said, christianity DESERVES no respect.

because the source material has been scientifically/logically/mathematically and humanistically been proven wrong. learn to open ur eyes.

* the Bible is composed of many books, some of them might not be well to suit your belief but there are things written in there that teaches a person how to love, respect, care, give mercy, help other people, etc... basically how to be a good person... and all you see is that the Bible is "scientifically/logically/mathematically and humanistically" been proven wrong? that's because you are fond of generalizing without batting an eyelash...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it alright to discredit all as anything but manmade. it also alright to discredit MOST as being false.

* but what is false? your scientists who provides you with facts are your evidences? you tend to make your belief as absolute... let me give you an example: Pluto was once one of the nine planets in our solar system, but recently, what was it now? point is, if the facts made by your belief is that dependable, why the change? proves your belief is not that accurate... just an example... 😉

the rift between religion vs science appeared not because of religion but refusal of people promoting it to move on and see evidence presented to them, the same people who were manupilating the words and texts and changing them to allign the world to their understanding instead of keeping the texts as they were. Saint Gregory VIII attempted to trace the biblical events in the gregorian calender and got it all wrong. that's alright and would've easily been forgotten...but the followers made a big deal out of it, refused to acknowledge those errors in the face of scientific facts and the whole thing turned into a debacle with scientists pointing evidence in their faces and them refusing to accept them.

but the problem isnt religion. its taking words or works of man and holding them up as infallible and absolutel....works of men that not only came centures after the death of Jesus but works that are clearly false. today, atheists poke fun at christians (and muslims for a reason that i don't understand since neither our fundamentalists nor our hadith or quran mention anything about 6000 years) for holding this view while ignoring the fact that the religion itself never made that claim. even here, i've mentioned it in the Noah's arc thread but no one's replying which to me suggests the kind of closed-minded antagonism that's generally associated with theists.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
aisha was 9 when the prophet married her, that's true, but 1400 years ago girls aged faster than they do today. even as late as 1960's girls could get married at 16 because they aged faster.
you know why that is? because of life expectancies. humanbeings natural limit is 70 years but with in different societies in different climates, life expectancies was limited or enhanced this. for the harsh desert life style of arabia, life expectancy was 30-40 years at best. that's why girls matured early then. so what idiots go around calling pedophilia today is actually blatant ignorance of the life expectancy 1400 years from today, amidst 40-45 degrees C of desert, nomadic life style and rampant wars and diseases and famine. she was 9 years old then but from today's standards she was in her late teens to early twenties.

context is your friend. also if muslims today are usng that as an excuse to become pedophiles its still not muhammed's fault. its their ignorance of the life conditions at the time that is to be blamed. not muhammed.

and pertaining to pedophila, pedophiles have been going around in all societies, in all ages. its got nothing to do with religion. a theist becoming a pedophile has as much to do with religion as an atheist becoming one.

~Sado

pure ignorance. no1 biologically MATURED FASTER in any time in human history. this is a false rationalisation. it may have been accepted by the culture, but that just goes to show how wrong th culture was. nuthing more to it, no context required, neurological and through extension, sexual and emotional maturity of a human being is never reached at age 9 no matter what age. muhammad was a pedophile, deal with it.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i am not even saying my stand because of the Bible, i am stating this because what i'm saying is morally and humanly correct... i just added a passage from the Bible for you to know that what i am saying is also in accordance with it...

* @ hitting children... hitting them =/= beating them to a pulp or killing them... in my country, to discipline a spoiled brat is to hit that child in the butt with slippers, then afterwards explaining to them that what they did was wrong...

* now you, and that oversized "belief" of yours, need to chill out... or maybe you want to be like in some countries were the parent only scolded the child and the child jailed them for child abuse... now THAT, my friend, is a complete bullcrap...

* go tell that to spoiled brats who would eventually become juvenile delinquents someday... hitting children is NOT always wrong... you're implying that ALL parents do not know how to raise their own children...

* that's because you LOVE to generalize... majority of people you will ask do NOT respect pedophilia, you gave an example which was never done by ordinary people, it was a special circumstance as explained by mr.sado22... you are just grasping ropes... stop this, bro, you're done...

* the Bible is composed of many books, some of them might not be well to suit your belief but there are things written in there that teaches a person how to love, respect, care, give mercy, help other people, etc... basically how to be a good person... and all you see is that the Bible is "scientifically/logically/mathematically and humanistically" been proven wrong? that's because you are fond of generalizing without batting an eyelash...

* but what is false? your scientists who provides you with facts are your evidences? you tend to make your belief as absolute... let me give you an example: Pluto was once one of the nine planets in our solar system, but recently, what was it now? point is, if the facts made by your belief is that dependable, why the change? proves your belief is not that accurate... just an example... 😉

again, ignorance of the past. have u ever bothered to study even a little bit of secular or child psychology? hitting children is only MORE LIKELY to turn them into delinquents, even IF THEY ARE NOT BEATEN TO A PULP. its also likely to cause emotional problems even if the beating is symbolic. what you are saying is morally and humanly WRONG. the bible is an EVIL BOOK and your proving it AGAIN AND AGAIN.

no sir, YOU generalised when you claimed that we shud respect other people's BELEIFS, and i showed you what a hypocrite you are seeing as you dont respect the pedophile's beleifs. i dont respect your christian beleifs and no1 with a brain should.

ive already disproven this ridiculous claim, its an evil book, and im well aware that its a faulty compilation of contradicting people chosen for political reasons among many others. as for the second part, its not a generalisation at all, many of the claims and statements in the bible have been CATEGORICALLY proven false.

what you are referring to is a matter of linguistic REFERENCE. utterly different from the fallasy that the earth is the centre of the world or the occurance of the great flood or god creating the world in seven days or the myriad of miracles in the bible.

Originally posted by Sado22
the rift between religion vs science appeared not because of religion but refusal of people promoting it to move on and see evidence presented to them, the same people who were manupilating the words and texts and changing them to allign the world to their understanding instead of keeping the texts as they were. Saint Gregory VIII attempted to trace the biblical events in the gregorian calender and got it all wrong. that's alright and would've easily been forgotten...but the followers made a big deal out of it, refused to acknowledge those errors in the face of scientific facts and the whole thing turned into a debacle with scientists pointing evidence in their faces and them refusing to accept them.

but the problem isnt religion. its taking words or works of man and holding them up as infallible and absolutel....works of men that not only came centures after the death of Jesus but works that are clearly false. today, atheists poke fun at christians (and muslims for a reason that i don't understand since neither our fundamentalists nor our hadith or quran mention anything about 6000 years) for holding this view while ignoring the fact that the religion itself never made that claim. even here, i've mentioned it in the Noah's arc thread but no one's replying which to me suggests the kind of closed-minded antagonism that's generally associated with theists.

~Sado

wrong

you need to learn how to argue, mate. coming up and telling me i'm wrong without telling me why isn't helping your case...it just makes you look like an obnoxious jerk.

^ive already told you the HOW. but since ur ignoring it, i thought it more helpful to go with the "what".

Originally posted by leonheartmm
again, ignorance of the past. have u ever bothered to study even a little bit of secular or child psychology? hitting children is only MORE LIKELY to turn them into delinquents, even IF THEY ARE NOT BEATEN TO A PULP. its also likely to cause emotional problems even if the beating is symbolic. what you are saying is morally and humanly WRONG.

* human experience >>> child psychology whatsoever... in my country, eventhough parents hit their children, children when they grew up loves their parents more, never giving them up to orphanages, and take care of their old parents... your golden psychology failed...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the bible is an EVIL BOOK and your proving it AGAIN AND AGAIN.

* prove that it is evil... your nitpicking never helps... the Bible promotes love, you just hate to accept it...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no sir, YOU generalised when you claimed that we shud respect other people's BELEIFS, and i showed you what a hypocrite you are seeing as you dont respect the pedophile's beleifs. i dont respect your christian beleifs and no1 with a brain should.

* look how absurd your arguments are? i am on the positive/affirmative side and you inject a negative one (e.g. pedophilia) and you're forcing me to respect the negative? heck, no... don't give me this crap, your debate style sucks... and stupid, by the way...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ive already disproven this ridiculous claim, its an evil book, and im well aware that its a faulty compilation of contradicting people chosen for political reasons among many others. as for the second part, its not a generalisation at all, many of the claims and statements in the bible have been CATEGORICALLY proven false.

* you know what's funny? the "ignorant" writers tend to know that:

"And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."
II Peter 3:15-16

* i guess you haven't read that, bro? because you generalized immediately... that was already a warning:

"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;"
II Peter 3:17

* even the finest of the finest books can be evil if not used properly... and the Bible acknowledges that:

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly."
I Timothy 1:8

* the law would be evil if not used properly... take the law of man for example, if it is abused, then men in authority would be corrupted...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what you are referring to is a matter of linguistic REFERENCE. utterly different from the fallasy that the earth is the centre of the world

* the Bible never said that, it was given a wrong interpretation...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
or the occurance of the great flood or god creating the world in seven days or the myriad of miracles in the bible.

* that's why they are miracles... you can't come up with scientific proofs with miracles, because if you can, then it's not a miracle... don't you get it? 🙄

ive already told you the HOW. but since ur ignoring it, i thought it more helpful to go with the "what"

Originally posted by peejayd
* human experience >>> child psychology whatsoever... in my country, eventhough parents hit their children, children when they grew up loves their parents more, never giving them up to orphanages, and take care of their old parents... your golden psychology failed...

* prove that it is evil... your nitpicking never helps... the Bible promotes love, you just hate to accept it...

* look how absurd your arguments are? i am on the positive/affirmative side and you inject a negative one (e.g. pedophilia) and you're forcing me to respect the negative? heck, no... don't give me this crap, your debate style sucks... and stupid, by the way...

* you know what's funny? the "ignorant" writers tend to know that:

"And consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are [b]some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."
II Peter 3:15-16

* i guess you haven't read that, bro? because you generalized immediately... that was already a warning:

"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;"
II Peter 3:17

* even the finest of the finest books can be evil if not used properly... and the Bible acknowledges that:

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly."
I Timothy 1:8

* the law would be evil if not used properly... take the law of man for example, if it is abused, then men in authority would be corrupted...

* the Bible never said that, it was given a wrong interpretation...

* that's why they are miracles... you can't come up with scientific proofs with miracles, because if you can, then it's not a miracle... don't you get it? 🙄 [/B]

correction. PERSONAL ANECDOTES<<<<<<<<<<<<<<accepted theories of child psychology. you obviously know nothing OF child psychology or psychology in general. heck your following extract of anecdotal accounts show that you know nothing of stereotyping or statistics. many people in my society claim the same things, but when you look deeper, you find the hypocrisy and abuse inherent in such societies. you are an ABSOLUTE IDIOT if you think hitting your children makes them love you more

it has been proven time and time again, lately the fact that it allowes and even encourages physical discipline is proof that it is evil. ofcourse examples of god killing the infants in ancient egypt doesnt hurt the case either. what about the presence of suffering in god's world. why did he make it? why circumcision? why punishment for fornication? why an eternity of hellfire if you dont beleive in him?
no satisfactory answer here, there, proven. its evil

heck no? so you dont respect the point of view or philsophy of the pedophile? GREAT. uve proven that not all philosophies are worthy of respect, and i dont consider yours to be worth anything respectful.

why are you using axtracts from a disproven fairytale to suport the argument that the said fairytale is real? sounds like circular reasoning to me. the bible isnt a FINE book, it makes good people do evil things {circumcision, case in point}

and who will judge interpretation? you? the person calling the earth the centre of the universe can merely claim that ur interpretation is wrong. why wasnt this great book LUCID enough to show which interpretation is right?

no its YOU who doesnt get it. miracle=magic=i KNOW it cant be explained but ill still claim that it just HAPPENED, and ill give this sort of nonsense a respectable name which ill claim refers to a completely different phenomenon from causality even though its a thinly veiled attempt to hide the fact that i cant explain it or make sense of it in the only REAL way that exists {i.e. logic/science}.

so again, by admitting MIRACLES your admitting that u lose the argument.

Originally posted by Sado22
no, you haven't said anything. all you did was say "wrong" and that's it. prior to that you haven't said anything that was rrefutable like you like to think it is. everything you've said is either very debatable or overly generalized. not to mention ignorant of context.

no it isnt, seeing as you have neither been able to debate it or to refute it. when u do either, ill bother debating, untill then, ur just wrong.

debate what? you're absurd claim about child "abuse" being the cause of every bad thing in the world from political corruption to the extinction of the dinosaurs? why not write a book about how slapping a child creates holes in the ozone layer too 😂

YOU are the one who never replied. YOU are the one who refused to back up his case. YOU are the one who didn't answer after blatant accusaton of pedophilia etc.

get your act together.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
debate what? you're absurd claim about child "abuse" being the cause of every bad thing in the world from political corruption to the extinction of the dinosaurs? why not write a book about how slapping a child creates holes in the ozone layer too 😂

YOU are the one who never replied. YOU are the one who refused to back up his case. YOU are the one who didn't answer after blatant accusaton of pedophilia etc.

get your act together.

~Sado

lmao, nice strawman. i never claimed that, i was referring to your dig that east has less social problems than the west. has nuthing to do with hitting children, that was dealt with elsewhere, nice try.

Originally posted by Sado22
aisha was 9 when the prophet married her, that's true, but 1400 years ago girls aged faster than they do today.

You know I think there were descritpions of Aishas still playing with dolls......

lmao, nice strawman. i never claimed that, i was referring to your dig that east has less social problems than the west. has nuthing to do with hitting children, that was dealt with elsewhere, nice try.

You know I think there were descritpions of Aishas still playing with dolls.

Originally posted by Sado22
i

1) i'm actually talkng about physical aging

Ok you got proof for this?

Originally posted by Sado22

2) girls played with dolls as late as early teens even in the 20th century. what's your point?

Is that common? Edit: Just read your post again properly getting married to a 13 or 14 is dodgey........cmon man, 😬

Originally posted by Sado22

3) there wasn't much "passtime" 1400 years ago, especially for women

Ok is this the explanation your giving for her playing with dolls, are you sure thats the reason why?

Originally posted by Sado22

4) and can you tell me where you read this?

Its a hadith cant rememeber which one.